Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback, part 2

RiotJag·3/12/2019, 8:46:52 PM·1 votes·133,597 views
Teemo changes temporarily on PBE for early feedback

Hey all, wanted to follow up from my last post and addressed some of the major changes we've put in since then.

  1. After seeing pretty strong feedback from players that Invisibility felt core to his identity, we tried different iterations instead of using a Camouflage mechanic. This current version still grants Teemo Invisibility when standing still or in brush. In addition, he can cast it to enter stealth while moving instead of having to standing still, and still lets him move a fair amount outside of the brush before exiting stealth. Since this version is substantially power-up in favor of the Teemo player, we've made it so enemies can knock him out of stealth by dealing damage to him. Our belief is that this still lets Teemo players be tricky and find previously inaccessible places to ambush opponents, and still lets them be clever enough to navigate the ways opponents can respond (by entering stealth out of their vision, for example). Please let us know how you feel about this version!

  2. We're trying something experimental with Invisible Teemo leaving footsteps on the ground behind, as a subtle way of giving warning to enemies without totally spoiling the ambush. The way I view this iteration is, let's find the best way for opponents to feel like Teemo keeps some element of interactivity when going Invisible. If footsteps give enough warning, that might be a better form of counterplay than knocking Teemo out of stealth upon taking damage, and we could think about removing that instead. Again, let us know how you feel about all of this!

  3. Mushrooms can bounce infinitely!

  4. Bonus HP to mushrooms is gone. The combination of this with allowing Teemo to have 5 mushrooms at once instead of 3 felt overwhelming to opponents, and we saw strong feedback that the Teemo players strongly preferred more shrooms over more health.

  5. Overall damage down a bit. This is mostly to make room for Teemo moving while Invisible, as we talked about above.

Thanks, Riot Jag

https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/9.2.1/img/champion/Kaisa.png

211 Comments

Cosmonaut Teemo3/12/2019, 10:19:31 PM57 votes

Well, I have been a Teemo main for four years, basically since I started playing league, and while I know I can't speak for everyone when saying this. I see problems with the current design.

1.) The biggest problem I see with the current iteration still circles around the new E. I have played with it on the pbe and tested it to see how it works and the conclusion I keep seeing is that in its current state it feels like a dead ability. While we can stealth indefinitely, and at least like our current live passive, stand still indefinitely (with pbe threat of being knocked out of stealth from taking any stray damage, say from tiamat or a skillshot). The footstep trail is just too glaring for it to be useful while moving in stealth. Its hard to understand the point of invisibility when you can clearly be seen with it. The trail appears directly under teemo, so while attempting to ambush someone, roam or gank, etc the stealth feels utterly pointless as it announces your presence as much as being visible would be. Because its so easy to see and predict Teemo's location. I understand that a invisibility skill like this is very potent and potentially very powerful, and it can call on a great deal of skill for the player to use effectively, but in its current state it feels bad to use both in and out of lane, as you cant really trick people with it, sneak up on people with it, or try to use it to get to safety with it. Having counterplay to it should be important, but as it stands it makes the skill feel just bad to use. Other fixes I could possibly see for this is if the footprint trail had a 1 or two second delay behind Teemo, perhaps increased with the skills rank, that could still signal his location without it totally announcing his presence to the enemy. Because a giant pair of green glowing footsteps approaching you is hard to miss, and even worse when he can be knocked out of that stealth by anyone just throwing a skillshot his way, it can invalidate the benefit of being able to move while stealthed. If so much of our power budget is wrapped up in this skill, I want Teemo to be able to use a mobile stealth effectively rather than just a questionable improvement of his old passive.

2.)The second thing I really want to ask is how Teemo's W can be modernized. It is a skill that is undoubtedly archaic, and while effective eventually when max ranked, it has no scaling effect, and despite supposedly giving teemo some good mobility, W just feels like a passive effect that would be tacked onto some other skill in modern league. I have heard and seen people suggesting that activating Teemo's w could remove slows, or grant slow resistance, and thats a powerful, significant effect, one that may be too powerful given some of the changes to Teemo's kit. But it would make his W feel more helpful to his kit, and give teemo more options against hard matchups and assassins.

3.) The last thing I see in this rework is how shrooms have a lost a lot of potency as damage tools. While Im not opposed to this, because I know that in the past they have been a very toxic part of his kit and one that has been hard to balance. The current state of their low damage and scaling ratio has forced Teemo into a even worse relationship with Liandry's torment. Shrooms are a key part of Teemo's identity, and because of Liandries they either are doing too much damage, or Teemo is forced to buy Liandry's to make them deal an adequate amount of damage. So if you would like to tone back the damaging factor of Shrooms, and instead give us more of them, which is a solution that I can agree with, something else should be done to help support Teemo's scouting playstyle. Instead of giving us something that is rarely, situationally useful, like infinite bouncing shrooms, shrooms having a larger vision radius, slightly lower mana cost, given Teemo is expending a lot more mana than he used too, and now for a tool that does little damage on its own, 75 mana per shroom on a champion who normally dosn't build mana, is costly.

4.) The last thing I can say is about his current pbe Poison passive. While I think the implementation of this is great, and from what I understand, most of the community dosn't have an qualms with it. I think that the poison synergy with other poison using champions, like Singed, Cassio, and Twitch, is only going to be negative for him. Getting a 50% damage upgrade when attacking the same champion as your adc, say, if Teemo was a support, is hard to balance, and it might spiral out of control, and likewise, I feel this small thing might be making his passive harder to balance with the rest of his kit. Leaving the 50% poison damage increase to work with Teemo's own kit rather than other champions might be a way to free up some power budget for other parts of his kit as well, whether that be in base damages or in adding a new effect. But considering either how rare this effect might occur, or how toxic it might be when its used efficiently, I think that its just shackling Teemo to a support role for other champions and it dosn't seem like a good change in the long run.

All That said, I thank you for being transparent with the rework process with the community. I think that keeping Teemo's identity is an important part of modernizing the champion and I think that your efforts to engage with that and us are admirable. I hope that I have been somewhat helpful.

joesange3/12/2019, 9:50:36 PM32 votes

My take on what and what I did not like on all these changes:

PROS Toxic Shot moved into passive is fine (gonna hurt his early power spike a bit but...) Poison increasing Toxic Shot damage feels really fun and rewarding More shrooms is not as good as you might be thinking because whenever a Teemo has capped 3 he will find a place for it and keep one in case of a fight happening so having 3 or 5 will only make a difference when you die and respawn. New E is good and fun.

CONS Reduced damage on his whole kit. Why taking so much of his power all around if he will be MUCH easier to be revealed with the reworked stealth? 3 HP shrooms with the reduced damage? where are we even going with this rework lol

Princess Nunu3/12/2019, 9:13:44 PM27 votes

i don t understand why not change at his w if you are looking at him it is the first thing that gets into my mind when i think what needs a rework about him and why not finally make his q a skillshot

4n413/13/2019, 3:38:13 AM17 votes

So you're giving these stupid-ass footsteps to Shaco too, right? No? Then why Teemo?

Thilough3/13/2019, 12:10:43 PM16 votes

I've tested a lot the current Teemo PBE version and I believe it's unbalanced.

AP builds are way too weak. The Noxious Trap, Toxic Shot AP scaling, and attack speed per level nerfs hit too hard, pushing a lane with AP teemo feels like hell.

On-hit builds are too good compared to other options, that's why you nerfed the attack speed but the side effect on non-AS builds is terrible. What needs to be nerf is the 50% bonus damage on poisoned target. At least remove the poison tag on Blinding Dart, and if it's not enough, nerf the 50% bonus.

Every game I feel that any deviation from the best itemization will cost me the game, which is not ok. Teemo, like a Jax for instance, is a fun champion because he can perform relatively well with many different builds.

I like the current version of E, it feels much different from other stealth abilities, the ambush vibe is here, whereas the chase feeling is gone. Good. But the Trail on Guerrilla Warfare feels bad because we cannot use it to escape a chase. I believe it's kinda balanced for offensive purposes. Changes to E made it almost equivalent to current passive (the trail+revealed on damage effectively means not invisible while moving out of bush), but now we can cast it while running.

I believe your train of thoughts was: AP Teemo nukes squishies from accros the map, let's nerf his R and put some power elsewhere. Ok, but then let's just nerf the damage when the trap is far from Teemo and leave the damage as is in a 1000/1500/2000 range... Let's have a look at the power shift:

  • R hard nerfed. Multibounce is close to useless. 5 ammos is nice after a recall but mostly useless then. 10 HP was quite strong.
  • Bigger vision range while stealth. Cute but useless, especially in the jungle.
  • I don't believe E has now more power, at least not with the trail and reveal on damage. It's basically the same as before with a mana cost but castable on the move.
  • The scaling per level of Toxic Shot is now following the live version in a E-maxed-second scenario. Thus last hitting is harder, but at least the first levels are not insanely broken against melee champions.
  • Q hard nerfed, Toxic Shot AP ratio nerfed on-hit.
  • Attack speed per level nerfed.
  • Bonus damage on poisoned targets (Q and R).
  • Better mana regeneration to follow mana costs increase.

And with all this, the PBE version of Teemo feels stronger than the live version. If you build On-hit, that is. You put too much power in his auto-attacks, it cripples the rest of his kit. And your follow-up nerfs (AS/level, P on-hit ratio) made it worse. Basically, Teemo's only tactic is to land a Q or R on his target, and auto attack it fast enough so it dies before Teemo does. There's absolutely nothing else he is useful for now.

Also, the interaction with other poisonous champion is overpowered and will have to be nerfed if it sees live server.

My suggestions to distribute Teemo's power budget more evenly in his kit:

  • Revert AS/level.
  • Toxic Shot amplified damage only on targets affected by Noxious Trap, and buff R's AP ratio 1000/1500/2000 units around Teemo.
  • Toxic Shot scales from level 1 to 9 again (but not amplified by Q anymore).
  • Toxic Shot DoT AP ratio buffed to 15% per second (bigger ticks don't benefit from attack speed).
  • Make the E footprints fade much much faster than now, for a small chance to escape.
  • W passives additionnally gives a 0.25s speed burst when Teemo changes direction (like 2.5 units per degree), so we can dodge skillshots more easily, while keeping the mobility creep to a minimum.
KsSoHyôKo3/12/2019, 9:02:04 PM16 votes

I like everything but his current W which feels so underwhelming. I and almost every other teemo main, strongly believe that this is the main skill that needs some kind of love.

Any additional mecanic would be great on the W : adding an AP or AD ratio on it ? or making the active give a burst of MS that decays over time so we can dodge skillshots ? or maybe it can give more MS when chasing an enemy hit by a shroom ? or it can cleanse slows ?

Also 17 sec cooldown at all levels feels so bad for this underpowered spell. It could at least be something like 17/15/13/11/9 sec to reward those who max it. because now every teemo player maxes W last.

Besides this, I love your work and I really appreciate the fact you give some importance to our feedback.

Jinzo Torrance3/13/2019, 3:18:37 AM15 votes

What's the point of giving someone an Invisibility effect if you also give him the downside to be tracked down if he uses it to reposition for an ambush and gets knocked out of stealth when damaged? It will be just like his current passive except he can't be hit by targeted spells for 1-2 seconds after he moves but you can also indirectly hit him to remove it anyway, like what?

Imagine Shaco or Talon leaving behind a trail while they're invisible but they can still lose the Invisibility if they are hit, what's even point of being "Invisible"? "Invisible" to who exactly?

Imagine the Spy from Team Fortress 2 leaving a trail behind and lose the invisibility if he gets hit, these two thing you're trying to do just can't exist together in any game, "Invisibility" is the total opposite of being revealed.

All these downsides to be able to move while invisible and you still give another damage nerf... tells a lot.

VRXDirtyPaws3/12/2019, 10:18:31 PM15 votes

The footprints while invisible seem cool but if theyre too obvious they might just give away teemos position entirely. Champs like Rengar can jump from invisibility in any direction so you dont really know where they might come from and I think that should be the same for teemo. Keeping the dmg knocking him out of invisibility seems like it might be a better way to go depending on how the foot prints work.

Also, a good scout wouldnt leave foot prints anyway [slayer-jinx-catface]

Puttor3/13/2019, 1:47:53 AM14 votes

Just leave him alone.

All the recent rework attempts feel like an effort to point and say you worked on him, when hes really just fine the way he is.

Sir Marillion3/12/2019, 10:18:08 PM12 votes

Hi! I copy here a message from a friend (he is unable to login for some reason). "Of all his kit, as mentioned by some people, Teemo's w is really boring... So some idea ticked in my brain What if his w was a small hop? But with a little twist : if Teemo hops on his shroom, he hops again the same distanse(and maybe again)? This can create different kinds of fun strategies and also the enemy would know where one shroom definitely is..."

Spideraxe3/12/2019, 8:51:07 PM10 votes

Hey jag I forgot to ask this the first time around but how come you guys decided to look into Teemo of all champs for this rework, since he doesn't seem to be the most dire champ in need of one

Luph3/14/2019, 7:48:19 PM9 votes

Why is an ADC main responsible for redesigning a largely balanced champion who happens to counter ADCs? Why is Teemo receiving changes at all? Is he overpowered? No. Are Teemo mains itching for him to be changed? No, and I’d argue that virtually none of the frustrations that Teemo mains actually do have were addressed by Riot’s changes.

Riot’s vendetta against invisibility. I don’t fully understand Riot’s fetish with killing invisibility mechanics, but here’s what I do know: Teemo’s old passive was fine the way it was and didn’t need to be turned into a balance quagmire by giving him a pseudo-twitch ability.

Shifting power on balanced abilities. Riot’s argument is that shrooms are too frustrating for low skilled players, so they butchered most of his kit and loaded all of that damage back into his on hit poison—which, of course, also led them to nerf his base damage and attack speed because, surprise, loading all of a champion’s damage into an on-hit passive is stupid as fuck. But also, let me just say the entire idea that Teemo’s shrooms are problematic is bullshit. Teemo is not dominating low elo play and if I listed all the abilities that “frustrate” low skill players we’d be here all day. Teemo shrooms are already weak and arguably the weakest they’ve ever been due to a long list of nerfs and other changes to the game. It takes a lot to make shrooms truly threatening, but at least that play style option exists. It won’t exist after Riot shits on our shroom damage and simultaneously destroys Teemo’s wave clear.

Stop introducing gimmicks like infinite bouncing shrooms or a crappy Twitch camo rip-off. Stop breaking a champion who is already completely fine. You know what Teemo mains hate? They hate how mana intensive it is to keep up shrooms that get cleared constantly by oracles. They hate that W feels completely useless in the hyper mobility meta where every champion can jump across the map. But you know what? At the end of the day I’d accept all of his current flaws than take the shit sandwich this designer is serving us.

Sovereign Kitten3/13/2019, 4:58:17 AM9 votes

Highly active TEEMO OTP here from r/TeemoTalk. along with a 7million + view guide with 2.5million Mastery Points.

I actually liked the 5 shrooms with 10hp, it allowed me to actually be of use to objective control pushing them into a corner where they either spent 3 seconds auto attacking a shroom or get caught out by someone on my team. Duskblade is still a one shot so that's some "counter" play you so desire now for some reason, maybe due to your mess up on Akali?

Do you know how unsatisfying it is to have a... Kha/Pyke(Dusk) an 3 or 4 people with sweepers clearing out your 5 shrooms on baron/elder with one control or their dusks with no "Counter" play to stop them besides throwing yourself at them. Probably not.

Only to have your team claim. "Fucking useless Teemo hasn't placed a single shroom."

It is underwhelming. Why lower the damage and revert hp back to normal? It really did help us stay strong in this constantly changing mess that is League.

The bouncing shrooms is... sure, fun. Which allows for plays literally across the map I guess?

Nobody likes the foot steps UNLESS there is some significant delay like 1.5 seconds, an nobody likes the get hit get unstealth.

I spent months finding the champions that could an could not unstealth Teemo.

Thresh Flail didn't if he hit the side of it. Thresh Flail did of he hit the full flail head on.

How about Lee Sin? Did you know.. He can only unstealth you when he connects the Q if he flys to you you immediately go back into stealth.

https://www.twitch.tv/cheesekit/clip/InventiveGrossSpindleFutureMan?filter=clips&range=30d&sort=time

Stuff like this is stuff I want to keep.

Some changes are just WTF? Some changes are Poggers.

But seriously.

Don't do us like you did AATROX mains. We like him how he is and want something done with his W, it is what we have always been talking about in r/TeemoTalk the last year or so.

So where are the W changes?

How about stop shitting on TEEMO one of the cutest mascots you have and treat him fairly.

Why target him? Why leave Shaco as he is? How is that fair? Why leave Eve like she is? That's not fair. Why leave vayne like she is?

THAT IS NOT FAIR.

If you think this foot print change is yo go through you are sadly mistaken just like you are mistaken for every "test" debuff you have given him.

Cryodrake3/12/2019, 10:40:05 PM9 votes

While i some of the changes to his E is nice personally i think they overestimate how much power his E really is, i mean you are taking a lot of damage off his R and Q and i think this is a bad idea, because it the end his over all damage is now down more and with the removal of the extra health on the shrooms its still going to be easy to remove his shrooms with sweeper lens, sure you can put a few more down but it still feels like the damage is too low right now. So personally i want them to put the damage back into his Q and R again.

Wild Geese3/12/2019, 11:07:02 PM7 votes

Regarding the current E iteration, I'd rather he not have the footsteps and just be invis while still and camo while moving. Easy to understand, no gimmicks. Seems fair!

Personally got to put this out here: I'm not for this rework. I am a Teemo main and I just think there's easier ways to go for what you're describing your goal for Teemo than doing a mini rework on him. He could probably have some number changes like: 1. less toxic shot scaling on early levels. 2. move movequick movespeed, with some frontloaded for dodging. 3. more shrooms on later ranks of R.

Thanks!

LamChikaBamBam3/12/2019, 11:47:04 PM7 votes

This current iteration with the footsteps feels horrendous. I don't understand how any player with any sense is going to get ambushed by a teemo that has a massive neon sign pointing to him saying "IM READY TO KILL YOU NOW". I played it on PBE and I didn't feel stealthy, I just felt stupid.

-760k teemo mastery points Plat 4

TonyTonyMordecai3/13/2019, 12:34:49 AM7 votes

My opinions in order of how often I think about it:

  1. Why change everything but the W - "Move Quick"? This is the one ability that is the most lack luster, and comparably less useful than Miss Fortune's new W (which I'm assuming is maxed second), because MF gains attack speed, resets her strut, and cooldown gets reduced when you proc Love Tap. Move Quick only grants a small percent bonus to his movement speed where Strut gives more movement speed, up to 100 at max rank. If Teemo's W was changed to be a passive effect (like Strut) and moved somewhere else, then you could give him a different ability that had farther range or some other utility that helped him be useful if he couldn't get into range with his Q or auto attacks, or if he wasn't able to throw a shroom. You know, like a flare/flashbang type of thing to be more scout like.

  2. I get that his passive attack speed being more accessible and more on demand in approaching a fight or in the middle of one as opposed to having to stand still warrants some power taken out/moved around (like giving him more damage if he directly contributes damage to a fight through his auto attacks), but at the same time, why did you reduce not only the base damage, but also the ratios? I don't know what build/role you're trying to push him into, or if you're just trying to switch some things up, but "overall damage down a bit... make room for teemo moving while invisible" seems a little much, not to mention you pulled a Sona and upped the mana cost while also lowering the damage in both places. I can understand the R, but maybe the Q should've kept the AP ratio.

  3. I'm glad you kept the invisible. I would've understood the camouflage if his E was closer to Twitch's Q or Pyke's W, but the previous iteration was not fun at all with the self slow, especially when compared to the other abilities which actually speed you up. It's not like Evelynn passive, or Rengar R, and even comparing to the other camouflage/invisibility spells, none of them slow you down. They all give some sort of bonus or utility.

Not really an opinion or complaint, but where do you guys at Riot (or just the people working on Teemo or in the balance/rework team) want Teemo to go, and what are you balancing him around in terms of opponents and build paths? Is he balanced as a ranged top laner or are you simply balancing him around certain situational strong points (like more Toxic Shot damage if the enemy currently has any poison effect on him) and then seeing where that goes?

Also, when is he going to get a model update like Morgana? Thanks for all of your hard work, Riot Jag.

Impish Yordle3/12/2019, 9:55:54 PM7 votes

His W is the ability that needs the most change if you ask me but for something reason you let it remain untouched. It's uninspiring and not nearly as useful as it used to be considering how mobility creep has developed over the years.

Copav3/15/2019, 5:37:00 PM7 votes

Teemo main here. 2m points on him right now.

I have a big question, why even rework him? There are TON of other champions who need a ton more love than teemo does (especially if you dont really give love at all). He is currently one of the most played champions in normal games, and middle of the pack in all ranked regions except Korea.

You try to give him "cool, new mechanics" but who asked for that at all? Because he is opressive in low elo? He can kill people from across the map? Well Karthus can do that too, the entire team too , he scales better, and his ult isn't revealed by a 75g item or a trinket which is free. What about Yi? Or Nasus? Or Veigar, all stack champions can be pretty opressive against low elo player.

You know what is actually fun about Teemo? He has one of the best passive in the game right now, either its useless, or its game changing. He has a ton of item build diversity, Tankmo? Onhitmo? Burstmo? You can play everything , what you prefer as a playstyle, it could be viable.

I am against nerfing shrooms at all, in high elo it's extremely difficult to kill player on a constant basis with shrooms, it takes a ton of experience to place unexpected shrooms. While his E changes are interesting, it should just stay an invisibility ability, you can even kick him out of the invisibility if hes hit with certain abilitys. But revealing him even more than before? Its difficult enough to not get spotted by bloody Sweepers, you have to give the enemy a visual aid to find him? Fantastic idea.

Why the hell are you nerfing his AP ratios, just leave his abilitys as they are, they are pretty much fine as they are , expect the W which is complete bloody garbage. With nerfing his AP ratios you get him to be played on hit, "item diversity" my ass.

You don't need to make Teemo viable in pro play, stop shoving your great new ideas to modernize a kit down our throats, focus on Champions like Voli or Morde. Me personaly as a Teemo player and lover am afraid of Riot even touching this champion , because history showed us that when he's even a little viable he gets shut down faster than any other champion. When Aery was released, he got hit 4 times, aery was nerfed twice, scorched was nerfed once, and teemo lost a ton of base stats. Nobody gets hit like that so bloody fast. His winrate was 52% at that time by the way, extremely oppressive !

Teemo is one of the most unique champions in the game right now, his ult is punishing if you are stupid, but useless against clever players. NO champion exist right now who loses his ultimate , because there are a ton of possibilitys to reveal it. His scalings allow him to be played as full ap, or on hit, or as an assassin. Please just leave him alone.

Luph3/13/2019, 2:03:04 PM6 votes

It's clear to me at this point that the developers are going to go through with these changes in one form or another, with rampant disregard to how they affect his gameplay in other ways (lane matchups, wave clear, playstyle versatility). They will break this champion just so they can force a twitch rip-off ability onto him and shift all the power off his shrooms, because siLvER pLaYeRs dIE tO sHrOoMs.

Whatever. It's a waste of my time to keep arguing when all the "feedback" they listen to is selective. Congratulations on killing a balanced champion and losing a long-time player.

Cruciver3/17/2019, 5:21:47 PM6 votes

My belief on this is that Jag is too close to the issues on Teemo to balance them appropriately because he is a Marksmen main. Teemo's primary issue is not the damage from Noxious Trap.

Teemo's primary issue is that he doesn't fit his theme any longer. Teemo's supposedly a swift scout, someone that strikes out on his own, poisons his enemies and sets traps for unsuspecting enemies. Early on in his life-cycle he fit the theme well. There was less damage back then, and far less mobility, so he was in fact fitting into his design space.

Thematically, Teemo has lost that. Everything is more mobile than Teemo these days, originally, there was a much higher level of wariness when it came to both mobility and power creep from the devs, and the shift away from that has led to many of the issues he has.

Teemo mains, at least those on /r/Teemotalk are mostly in agreement that we would like to see his W reworked into some sort of short range dash, in addition to granting passive movement speed boost that is always active. My solution has always been to change it into a short range roll like Vaynes that will bounce Teemo into the air if he hits a mushroom. Put it on a 10/9/8/7/6 second CD and bob's your uncle.

Additionally, we would like to see more viable mana costs on Teemo's ultimate. We spend far too many resources on creating shroom fields for them to be completely destroyed by 1-3 FREE ttrinkets (~60s CD) and Duskblade, which is one of the most picked items. Either a health boost to the shrooms, a mana cost reduction or both are needed to keep Teemo in a competitive place.

With regards to moving Camouflage and Toxic Shot around, I believe that it's largely irrelevant. Teemo mains like his passive where it is, and while active invisibility is nice, and especially nice when outside of a bush, I believe the trade-offs that have been proposed for it, both the self slow and the foot-prints idea, were completely counter-productive.

MaximOH4L3/12/2019, 10:41:44 PM6 votes

Why u guys u just change teemos W and add the venom sinergis and thats it ? what u really pretend is to fk teemos playstyle imo

GG ım cute3/13/2019, 5:35:48 AM5 votes

I tried it, and really disliked it. I don't understand why you would give Teemo invisibility, only to give his location away with footprints, and on top of that, you make him knocked out of invisibility when hit. What's the point of this skill? The duration is short, and cooldown is way too long. This change is quite disgusting.

Also, I disagree with the suggestion people made about making Teemo's Q into a skill shot. I think you guys already ruined Warwick's ult when you did that. Think about people who lag, or have lower FPS. The enemy can just stand behind minions and poke you to death while you can't do anything. I can't imagine having this change and being a Teemo trying to kill lux.

I agree with the points people made about Teemo's W being very lacking. The speed boost isn't that great. It's definitely quite boring.

I think that it's useless for Teemo to carry 5 mushrooms when you aren't accommodating changes to his mana/cooldown. Also, many people enjoy shrooming, and having the shrooms do most of the dmg, then going in to 3 shot the enemy to death. You're taking this tactic away from us.

The unlimited shroom bouncing was pretty useless when I tried it. It's unnecessary.

I don't think Teemo needs to be reworked, unless you're changing his W. Why bother fixing what isn't broken? Would definitely appreciate a new skin though.

Lord Kagetane3/13/2019, 2:38:44 AM5 votes

Well I did not have the ocassion to play it on pbe, but from the info i got around and what you said there is my temporar opinion Invisibility

  • The footprint just seems stupid and Teemo would be easy detected by anyone with a functional brain.
  • Any source of damage break Teemo's stealth, and there I think is a tiny mistake cause anyone can break his damage without even trying to hit him, for example, do you even see how Yasuo players throw random tornados everywhere around? I mean, maybe contradictory with what i said using yasuo a example,** I think just CC skills should break Teemo's stealth** , you see the current live stealth on normal servers can be break by a knock-up, but i think it would be fairly balanced for this one to be breaked by any CC ability, most of champs owing one (charm, slow, stun, root, fear, etc.) Doing so enemy will have to actually know teemo is around and not just random hit him cause their cat jumped on the keyboard and randomly ezreal flashed Q in a bush.
  • I stilll don't know if Teemo is self slowed, but in combination with the above handicaps, the slow just unnecessary. (would prefer to remove footprints tho, also reduce a little the amount of self slow)

Mushroom

  • Personally, i would prefer the version where shrooms had more health than more slots
  • bounching infinity don't really help, no one will do it in a serious game
  • Teemo needs some more damage back, and if you think it would be to powerful to give some flat or ratio back, i think the best solution would be some percent damage, doing so a shroom will not instakill the enemy adc, but still will not be completly useless against champions that build some health. The percent damage wouldnt have to be big, i think something 2/3/4% enemy max health would be enough with the current flat and ratio he had.
  • Another option would be to increase even flat or ratio damage at a decent amount that Teemo's R be not just some wards with slow
Kadexe3/12/2019, 11:14:43 PM4 votes

Bonus HP to mushrooms is gone. The combination of this with allowing Teemo to have 5 mushrooms at once instead of 3 felt overwhelming to opponents, and we saw strong feedback that the Teemo players strongly preferred more shrooms over more health.

I think Teemo players might have made the wrong call here. If the goal here is to make Teemo more effective at high elo, it needs to be more difficult for opponents to clear out his mushrooms. Simply giving Teemo more mushrooms exacerbates his effectiveness in low elo.

Jax Did 9113/14/2019, 12:03:17 AM4 votes

well. i got hate when this was first announced saying i have my concerns about the rework and it seems now that most people are unhappy. and here is why.

forcing playstyle and build paths. teemo players like having choices. you're killing an entire playstyle. i mean his r is his ULTIMATE. why make it next to useless. might as well remove the r key for teemo players. at least do something that gives shrooms more utility or uses.

self countering kit? why does every stealth champion get bonuses for stealth or is at least not debuffed. it makes no sense. why the obsession with having an ability that you think the only way to balance is to make it crappy or useless, change it so its not garbage.

properly update the one ability everyone actually wants to see updated to modern standards. move quick. most of us would be happy if you changed that and did nothing else.

finally most of us see this as an overall nerf. sure on hit has its moment to shine and early game is stronger but thats it. everything else feels forced or over complicated

cocacolalips3/13/2019, 3:47:49 AM4 votes

Footprints is a fun idea, but it doesn't belong on Teemo. His stealth duration is too short and too situational to really take advantages of all the possibilities a feature like this bring. It belongs on a new champion that is permanently invisible. Instead of looking for a character model, you look for footprints around the map. A similar feature is used to great effect in some PvP stealth multiplayer games like Dead by Daylight, where survivors leave traces of blood behind them when hurt.

Breaking his invisibility/camouflage with damage might be okay, but you have to make sure E can still be used reliably to run away from a fight or when chased, like Twitch does. If you can prevent him from entering camouflage by continually attacking him, the spell is useless.

About the rest of Teemo's kit, what needs to be looked at first and foremost are his Q and his R imo. Both are old mechanics with little counterplay that create lots of frustration.

You already talked about his R and how you want to reduce the damage. Seems fine to me. It's probably not enough but I can't think of anything else atm.

If there is no way to make his Q less reliable, by making it a skillshot for example, then the duration should be reduced significantly to 1s max, or maybe lasts x (1-2) number of auto attacks. I think it should be similar to Sivir's spellshield, or Fiora's parry, a powerful spell of very short duration that requires precise timing. It should also be consistent and block all auto attacks, enhanced auto attacks, runes/items/effects triggered by those auto attacks etc.

Speaking of Q, there is a lot of stuff you can do with the blind debuff that Riot has yet to explore. From screen tints, to black screens, to long term effects. What if every time a player was blinded by Teemo, his field of view was reduced by say 100 or 200. Debuff is removed upon visiting the fountain. It would be similar to Graves or Nocturne black screen. At first you see your entire screen, then each subsequent blind the circle around your champion that limits your vision gets smaller to a point. Thematically, that would reinforce the tactical warfare element teemo is known to be about. Gameplay-wise, that would add some macro gameplay element, where players have to choose between recalling more frequently, or run the risk being an easier target to mushrooms and ganks due to lack of vision. Does that sound like a mechanic worth exploring?

Starduck43/12/2019, 11:24:55 PM4 votes

The footsteps behind teemo completely ruin the purpose of invisibility or camouflage. Anyone with half a brain will notice them and react accordingly. The fact that his entire kit is getting nerfed to the ground so that he can have a mobile stealth should be compensation enough. These footsteps make it obvious where he is and the ability in its current state really only serves as a way to evade targeted abilities and auto attacks, which seems pretty awful as his q is a blind. I think a good way to keep invisibility while giving counter play is to make teemo invisible in brush or while idle and camouflaged while moving outside of brush. This way teemo will be able to sneak around (like scouts do) while also allowing for counter play via control wards. The enemy should be buying control wards anyway for his shrooms.

hi im SapQT5/23/2019, 9:32:36 PM4 votes

Not sure if it's been posted anywhere here but this is the video the Teemo main Ipav999 made about the changes. He recently got three accounts to challenger playing Teemo only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n9XHPnAJ04

Lèónìdás3/13/2019, 1:08:21 PM4 votes

First thank you for being so transparent with this rework as it's really importent to me because I'm a teemo main since I started playing. Following I will response to every of your 5 statements (and sry english is not my main language).

  1. and 2. The stealth mechanic of teemo was allways one of my key strategys to be successfull. I really like the idea that you need to cast it so you cant get invisible everytime u stand still or enter a brush. Also I think the ability to still be able to walk in bushes and the ability to leave them and stay invisible for a short distance is a good thing for him. But in my opinion it's really important for him to be Invisible, not Camouflage, and that damage taken by a skillshot or something shouldn't knock you out of it. Being able to break his stealth with an item like tiamat would be stupid in my opinion. I'm fine that he should be knocked out of it by "knock ups" and "knock backs" and I feel like this should be a thing. I also think the idea with the footprints is good as long as it is a bit delayed like half a second or one second. I feel like this and the glitter effect if teemo is hit by something should be enough.

  2. That's a really good change!!

  3. First, yes more shrooms are better and healthier for the gamplay with and against teemo than more health for the shrooms. But overall I don't even think that teemo needed that adjustment. The shrooms where fine like they are on the live server. I really don't like that the dmg of the shrooms is reduced that much. I still belive teemo is a mid and lategame champ so I feel like his ap rating and his base dmg on his r should stay the same. You stated that you try to make him more viable in high elo. Account the fact that teams in higher elo know how to play against teemo shrooms (with sweeper and pinkwards) it's allready hard enough for teemo player to deal dmg with them if not throwing them into a group in teamfights.


A little annotation for the rework: I love his w. It's practically and simple and that's good. But I feel like it could use some love too. Looking at teemos kit I have like 2 ideas how it could get a little bit better. You don't need to do this just think about it.

  1. He has no gap closer in his kit and if he is ever slowed he will die presumably die. So how about if he activates his w give him slow resistance for a short duration OR remove all slows from him.

  2. You mentioned that you want teemo to be able to get out of bushes invisible. So why dont make it that teemo can walk invislbe in bushes but only can leave them invislbe when you activate your w.


That are my thoughts on the teemo rework. I hope you will read it and take it in consideration.

Greetings

Jaggard4/23/2019, 2:28:16 PM4 votes

I like how there hasn't been a single point of Riot contact in this supposed feedback thread, or even a new feedback thread for each patch that has passed for PBE updates. Pretty much tells you that they aren't listening and are just gonna go forth with what they've created here, which is still highly flawed and worse by comparison to the current live Teemo.

Javazon5/2/2019, 12:27:12 AM3 votes

"Overall damage down a bit."

What good is invisibility and stealth mechanics if you don't have the damage to back it up. Rengar and Talon can oneshot you in under a second, vayne can invisible around at high speeds with no counterplay true damage rageblade.

What is teemo going to do? Appear in front of someone and they just beat yo butt because you have nothing to back it up. Do I Q-AA and run away? Yea that's great risk reward ;] BTW item 3194

Nitpicky4/17/2019, 12:13:52 PM3 votes

Hello there Jag, even though you might not even take a look at this, but I do it anyway because you "asked" for feedback. Before all, Teemo is one of the oldest champion and was created in a "to be a mascot mold". But, why, when you (talking of Riot) rework your own logo, you do not take time to rework Teemo altogether, not especially change all his kit, but giving him a more modernized appearance and a more coherent kit and place in the lore that is clearly lacking at the moment?

 Anyway, if you really want to only rework his abilities... Then why do you keep the W? It has been one of the most hated Teemo spells, not in the "iT'S bRoKEN!!" department, but more in the "archaic" one. I appreciate what you are trying to do with the rest of his kit, it helps him breath but... the W just feels out of place. That is why, after talking with experienced or newbie players, Teemo mains and Teemo haters, I tried to work around an idea that has its place with your idea... only if the efforts are there. I am not pretending I am a better Game Designer, since I am only studying, but this issue has to be adressed.

[EDIT 4/17/2019, 6 hours later to the original post] After some feedback, no more increased base hp, nor range increased. E buffed and some changes reverted.

List of changes [According to his stats on the 04/16/2019 version of PBE] :

Passive [Toxic Shot] : Decreased bonus basic attacks magic damages from 8-50 to 6-45 Decreased poison DoT magic damages from 24-180 to 20-170

  • Q [Blinding Dart] : AP ratio from 0.6->0.7

  • W [Guerilla Warfare] : Moved to W No longer sees 25% farther while stealthed. Bonus attack speed when Guerilla Warfare breaks from 20/30/40/50/60% to 20/25/30/35/40%

  • E [Tactical Move] : it is just a placeholder name Mana Cost : 40 Cooldown : 13/12/11/10/9 Dashes through less units than Aatrox, and bounces the same amount of units than a shroom. Amount of Bounces : 1/2/3/4/5

    Teemo rolls in the cursor's direction, though not through terrain. If he had activated Guerilla Warfare, Teemo instantly enters invisibility. It can be used during Guerilla Warfare's invisibility without counting as Teemos traveled.

    If the roll connects to a placed shroom, Teemo, while breaking his invisibility state if he had one, bounces from it just like when he places a shroom atop of one another, but revealing the shroom for 2.5 seconds. If Tactical Move is leveled, Teemo can then bounce on a certain amount of shrooms depending on the level. Bouncing, unlike rolling, can go through terrain.

    After the end of Tactical move (either roll or bounce), Teemo gains 10/20/30/40/50 more range for his next 3 basic attacks for 3 seconds.

An image to showcase the idea : https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/414247705452347393/568028524338872330/unknown.png

  • R [Noxious Trap] : Base damage decreased from 150/250/350->150/250/300 AP ratio increased from 0.4->0.5

    So... what is the goal of all this?

  1. Not making on-hit mandatory. A lot of people have already talked about that they liked the AP assassin aspect more than on-hit, and do not like being forced to delete entirely this playstyle. When you consider a scout thematically, scouts can also assassinate in a matter of seconds instead of sustaining damages.

  2. Making the W (now E) more coherent with the rest of his kit. It gives Teemo mobility (Swift Scout) that is also tightly linked with the other aspects of his "scout" thematic. Either infiltrate quickly or get out no matter the consequences (loosing shrooms while you are bouncing off of them).

  3. Enabling Teemo to have more teamfighting abilities (or rather... possibilities?) while reducing his lane bullying. A scout should not be only able to face one person and that is Teemo's current "only" job, a scout has to go deep and seek weaknesses to help his team thrive, so giving him more mid/late game abilities/possibilities and reducing his bullying is a way to make him more viable throughout all ranks and not only a nightmare for the Iron folks.

    All numbers might not be correct, but it is there to give you a general idea of the feedback I wanted to give. Please consider answering to people, it really feels weird to ask for feedback and leave so many good comments unanswered. And when I said "efforts" higher on the post, it was meant to be "if you want to flesh out some of Teemo's kit, you are going to need some updated rigs and animations". Now that we have reached the end of the post, please consider what I have said, and...

Have a good day Jag, and Riot too!

TheJollyWalrus3/13/2019, 2:54:15 AM3 votes

I know everyone wants to get rid of the footsteps while using e, but what about making it so if w is used during stealth, the footsteps go away for the duration of w. This could potentially give teemo a little more "outplay" potential and could be a fun combination to work around. It would give his w, which I find lackluster, more versatility and feel like a more rewarding ability to use. I have no idea if this could be viable or easily balanced, but I just feel that something should be changed with teemo's w and the footsteps.

sobi9995/23/2019, 11:03:59 PM3 votes

With all due respect, after our previous feedback, i don't think that teemo's kit has even remotely been changed to accommodate the requests of teemo mains.

I for once am confused on the reason for this rework? Do the devs think teemo is in bad spot? Or is he just intolerable in lower elos as i recall you guys mentioning, yet i strongly disagree with it.

Overall, teemo is in a bad spot because whilst his winrate is stable, that is because of his low playrate, combined with the fact that teemo mains have mained him for years and years and are very dedicated to him unlike other mains.

What changes to make:

Don't lower his damage please. Right now, no DPS champion is bad in comparison to DPS/Burst assassins that are everywhere. Just increase his survivability so target his W.

If you wanted to take away power because of giving him increased utility, then target his cooldowns. So maybe make his W a more effective escape/chasing tool but with even higher CD? Right now the W has an absurdly long cooldown for what it gives.

Please forget about giving him stealth whilst moving. What good would it do , to give a DPS aa reliant squishy champion stealth that can't kill the enemy before they kill him? With twitch at least he scales like a monster and usually has a support to help it to scale.

ThiefKing135/16/2019, 8:18:03 PM3 votes

The Teemo rework looks like Riot is trying to change the way Teemo is played. They are expecting Teemo players to become assassins but most assassins have high mobility and huge damage burst. With Teemo, a lot of his flavor comes from guerrilla tactics. They are taking away a lot of those tactics in damage with shrooms and blind shot and requiring him to go toe to toe with other, tankier, higher dps champions. Have you ever seen a Teemo try to go toe to toe with an Irelia? Pretend you sneak up behind an Irelia with your blind shot and autos. She's jsut going to swat you out of the air.

By placing more of his dmg into his auto attacks you MAKE Teemo have to go toe to toe with other, far better skirmisher types. Unless the dmg you're putting into those auto attacks is assassin burst style dmg, Teemo will be trounced as soon as he comes out of stealth.

In the end, Teemo is being made into a skirmisher and without the mobility and dmg to back that up, he's doomed.

As far as I can tell most Teemo players are guerrilla tactics types, not team fighters or even assassins, more like hit and run. You might not get the kill right then but have patients, you will.

TLDR: Teemo is a hit and run champion, an opportunist. He's not an all in assassin. If you want to make him better, build on what he already is don't try to make him into a mini Rengar.

jonjonbrahh3/12/2019, 10:57:21 PM3 votes

I look forward to the Teemo changes. Thanks Riot Jeg! Teemo has been my main since s3 and I cant wait to play the new Teemo on the live servers.

Great Daimadoshi3/13/2019, 3:58:38 PM2 votes

I tried it on PBE and I think that the on-hit build is way stronger than a full ap, you're forced to go into an atk speed build if you want to do a good dps. I would like a W rework, as I already said, something like a jump or a vision tool, Teemo his a swift scout, he needs to grant more vision and be "agile". I like the E changes but the footprint trail it's really bad, I would prefer a "teemoximity", something like the camouflage warning without breaking the invisibility, so the enemy will know that you're near and can try to spot you (I would love a giant teemo smile over the enemy champion!) Also, a reduced time to enter the stealth will be appreciated, maybe scalable with lvls or points, because if you're not in a brush it's really simple for an enemy to guess where you're going.