Why does zed's w give him bonus ad

Knight SoIaire ·Aug 22, 2015·15 votes·2,441 views

That just doesn't seem like a very engaging part of his kit its just there ... and it doesn't do anything until you get to late game since you need to get load of ad first and then you need to level this skill which you do last (getting 5 points of ad ... which you maybe wont get in mid game ... it much less than increasing your skill damage and reducing its energy cost)

while i have my own stance on zed which revolves mainly around "zhonya is unfair for both sides" i just noticed that zed gets some stat for a random reason which doesn't really do much for him

simple question ... why ?

39 Comments

Binxy PrimeAug 22, 201518 votes

It evens out his power curve, if his base abilities had higher scaling he would be much stronger early game, this way late game his Autos scale better and his abilities scale better which stops him from completely falling off. If the AD bonus' were higher then Maxing W would probably be done over maxing either q or e and he would be too strong.

I actually think this was a pretty clever way to keep him useful late game without making him way too strong at tower pushing and dueling tanks early game.

360D3GR3SSAug 22, 20152 votes

Exactly this, thank you sir.

DurzakaAug 23, 20151 votes

Well said. +1

SEKAIAug 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Binxy Prime,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GfLRGmrQ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-08-22T21:20:19.835+0000)

I actually think this was a pretty clever way to keep him useful late game without making him way too strong at tower pushing and dueling tanks early game.

Question: Are assassins even meant to be useful late game (excluding those with an early feeding)?

I know there are Yi who kinda fits the assassin category as well as being the melee ADC. But we should look at Yi this way, he is a melee ADC who happens to be also cool with assassinating.

However that isn't the case with Zed who is designed as an assassin through a through, so he shouldn't even have the right to think about running into late game without at least having a string of dried up heads hanging on this belt first. Also assassins shouldn't be able to do extended duels.

To say/accept he has those categories all at the same time only spells 1 thing for me: Overloading.

WolfChasesAug 23, 20151 votes

And than you realize that when Late game comes every single Zed's target has something to literally poop on him read: item 3157 item 3026 item 3072 . And do not say "Those items counter everyone" - Exactly but I dare you to ult someone with those late game in the middle of the teamfight especially when there's late game Irelia Gnar Garen Rumble or whatever.

People do not realize how much item 3157 and item 3026 counters Zed . Ofc also counter's Ahri Orianna Viktor Syndra etc but their teamfight presence without their ultimates is MUCH MUCH better than Zed's :) Keep that in mind.

Akali is SO HOTAug 23, 20151 votes

Assassins are meant to take out carries very quickly during Mid-Late Game. Fortunately, this has become really difficult to do because the carries are either mages with infinite CC and point and click abilities to 100-0 while being tanky as fuck or have supports peeling for them 24/7. It only becomes worse when you get completely countered by someone using Zhonya's or QSS. Unless you can really outplay your opponents or you are playing in bronze assassins completely suck in teamfights but thankfully most people are bad at this game and let them kill them anyway resulting in mass QQ and them getting nerfed constantly.

The only assassins that are actually sorta good at teamfighting are Diana Katarina Leblanc Rengar

Unless played very well the rest of the assassins are complete garbage in teamfights including: Akali Kassadin Khazix MasterYi Pantheon Riven Shaco Yasuo Zed unless they are being played against bad Bronze/Silver players.

Of course I'm not being totally truthful because Riven is actually the best champion in the game and is good at all stages of the game and is completely overpowered and should be nerfed to nothing because she has everything in her kit with no counterplay.

ZED G0DAug 22, 20158 votes

"zed gets some stat for a random reason which doesnt really do much for him"

zed + AD = useless. the logic in this post. is unbearable

Knight SoIaire Aug 22, 20152 votes

didn't say useless (google some reading exercises ... cause it seems you have some problems with it)

i said doesn't really do much for him ... and that's exactly what it does

if i had that 20 ... 30 or 40 ad less in late game ... i would do the same i'm not saying some ad is bad ... but why ?

lets say that fizz's ult gives him 10/20/30 ap ... its cool but why ... why would he need just some minor stats ... what do those stats accomplish that they need to be there

ZED G0DAug 22, 20153 votes

why do I bother giving myself +7AD in my runes page? every bit helps..especially for an assassin like zed who relies on pushing out as much damage as possible in a short burst to proc his ult to the fullest potential

VasilisGreenAug 23, 20151 votes

20, 30 or 40? lolololololol.... Do you even math bro? Add the amount of AD he gets from his most commonly built big AD items. we have item 3153 , item 3142 , item 3072 , item 3035 and a item 3139 . I build bt instead of item 3031 . that's 25+30+80+80+40. also, 14 from his masteries and 14 from AD per level quints. W works on your bonus AD. So, you add that to his 113 base AD, ad 6% from drake buff and then subtract his base AD. that makes for 306.76 AD. now, the warlord mastery gives you an additional 5% bonus AD, so add 5% to that to get a new total of 322 bous AD. and now add his bonus from his W passive which is 322*0.25= 80 AD. That's a bloodthirster worth of AD. wanna see what happens if you add a baron and a item 2140 too? you will get a total bonus AD, before the W passive of 394 and now your passive will give you 98 AD. Hmmm, not much huh? it is just 18 ad more than all the major items, soc doesn't counts since it doesn't provide a stable AD value. and some people don't even build botrk and go for item 3074 insted... At that point your W will give you 100 ad without getting baron.... It isn't as useless as you thought now is it? So, you basicaly, when a Talon with the same items will get a total value of only 429 AD while a Zed will get 515 total AD. Definitely not a noticable difference... Not by a longshot noticable... zed's Q scales with 100% bonus AD. with that "not so usefull" W passive, you effectively have 402 bonus AD. Talon's W scales with 120% Bonus AD, 60% on each hit. His bonus AD is just 321. so in one W he does 385 damage just by his scale and zed's Q does 402 and it scales with 20% less than talon's... Not to mention that if the zed is good enough he can hit you with 3 of these for 75% more damage to the first Q... But no, his W passive is not so usefull.....

My Waifu VanillaAug 23, 20151 votes

The main question was why it was in the kit. Free stats should only be in the game if there is a clear reason for it. Why not simply increase the ratios on Q and E? Doubtful it's for the auto attacks and considering late game at full build he will still blow up a squishy target by a land slide that I can't see it being useful there. It is just odd.

Slamurai JackAug 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GfLRGmrQ,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2015-08-23T10:27:04.896+0000)

The main question was why it was in the kit. Free stats should only be in the game if there is a clear reason for it. Why not simply increase the ratios on Q and E? Doubtful it's for the auto attacks and considering late game at full build he will still blow up a squishy target by a land slide that I can't see it being useful there. It is just odd.

Because removing the Bonus ratio on his W (which he maxes last) and increasing his Q and E ratios instead only makes him around the same strength late game but stronger early and mid game, especially if he's snowballing. You see "free AD for no reason", I see "an excuse to keep his other ratios lower while still making his late game not terrible".

Giving "free" stats to a champion like this is a method Riot often uses to force champions into specific power curves and playstyles. The best example of this is Yasuo's kit. By giving Yasuo a shield that dissipates quickly upon taking any damage, Riot can give him lower base resistances and health, making building defensive items on him weaker and encouraging him to build like a carry and not a bruiser. By giving Yasuo double crit, they can keep his base damages very low and force him to itemize for crit in order to do meaningful damage, again incentivizing him to build like a carry and not a bruiser. And the armor pen on his ult allows Riot to keep the base damage low enough that it doesn't completely obliterate squishies from having too high base damage while also not being worthless against tanks from having too low base damage. Yasuo has an absolutely amazing kit for being built bruiseresque and the only reason he isn't is because his scalings just don't allow it. And that's a good thing. Yasuo's kit would be extremely toxic to play against if he had bruiser level stats to back it up. You don't want to live in a world where Botrk Tri Full Tank is a strong Yasuo build.

VasilisGreenAug 24, 20151 votes

I don't even understand why people build tri-force on yasuo. I see it'a usefulness if you play top because you need to be kinda tanky but still, it works vs certain matchups. Also, when i see yasuo with tri-force mid i laugh so hard. I play mostly normals and there, mirror matchups are many. So, i play yasuo, i get 10% crit in runes and 5 armor pen, and they have either AD in runes or AS. the funny thing is, whoever wins the lane is the one with more skill, and almost every yasuo i see lately builds statikk tri-force while I go for statikk IE. But, with this build path, even if i lose lane early, i can still shred them later. The build path alone makes IE more powerful than triforce on yasuo. They get 60% crit with 2 items, i get the same with only 1. and after the IE, which is only 100 gold more expensive, what are they gonna do in a 1V1? i have more AD, and a lot more crit damage and i have already hit the 100% crit that we all aim for. what do you have with tri-force? a bit more AS, 50 less AD, less crit chance and considerably weaker crits altogether. And what if the game is fairly a close matchup overall and they have tank top, jungle and supp? Even botrk is a better option as second item instead of tri-force, it gives you more AS, lifesteal and more effective damage and an active that you can utilize perfectly. Also, later in the game, i will have statikk, IE, and botrk and the boots, the tri-force build will have statikk, tri-force and IE and the boots. then what? What will you do? I have the botrk, i have more AS, i have lifesteal. Trinity path has only a spellblade passive, less AS, less effective damage and no lifesteal, guess who wins. Also, triforce gives hp annd that makes my botrk even more effective. and team-comp wise, i can shread the enemy tanks, the one with the trinity can't. What is this trend all about anyway?

Slamurai JackAug 24, 20151 votes

It's the most slot efficient way to get 100% crit if you aren't willing to run crit runes and it allows you to buy an early phage which is a solid item on Yasuo. In duels, Triforce gives only slightly less damage than IE while also giving extra tankiness and mobility, making it useful if you want to split push all day. The spellblade proc is also both very spammable and usable on towers, increasing your pushing power. I personally don't build it very often; I prefer the Shiv IE rush with crit runes for the sharper mid game powerspike. But I will occasionally build it against a tough matchup top where our teamcomp isn't really built for teamfighting and thus I'll be forced to split.

VasilisGreenAug 24, 20151 votes

Slightly? Really now? Slightly? Pls, do the math. Let's say you have IE/tri-force by level 12. Your bas AD is 87. let's say no ad runes and 8 ad from masteries. Let's say you start longsword and 3 pots. By then, Longsword is made a vampiric scepter in the IE build path and a phage in the tri-force path. With the IE you have at lvl12 87+10+8+80=185 AD. in the tri-force build you have 87+30+8=125 AD. that is 60 AD difference. Also, the IE build has 8% lifesteal. Now, let's see what stats you get in each occasion. With the IE, you have 185 AD, 100% crit, 40 AS from statikk and 2.25AD crit damage. With the tri-force you get 125 AD, 70% AS, 60% crit chance, more MS, more HP and 1.8AD crit damage. Now, with IE each AA will do 185*2.25=416.25 damage. with the tri-force each AA will do 225 damage on crit and 125 on simple hit. Your Spellblade will do a 174 worth of damage whenever you proc it. if you crit you get 225+174=399 damage and 125+174=299 with a non crit hit. In both cases, IE path comes out Ahead and also you have lifesteal with IE. Later in the game, i will also get botrk and you have to go for IE. that means, chances are, i will make botr much earlier than you will make IE and then i will do even more damage and you will also have more HP for me to abuse with my botrk. also, with botrk and boots i have 40+40+25=105% AS while the triforce and boots will be 40+25+30=95% AS (Statikk shiv AS incuded). So, even when you get the IE i will do more damage, i will do it faster and i will have the sustain that you with the tri-force will lack. Also, since it's not a 1v1 game, both our teams will have tanks, and with the juggernauts now, those tanks will likely be strong. You will have to deal with them quickly. So what do you do? i will abuse my botrk and shred them. Also, you said that triforce is the best way to go to cap that crit without having crit in runes. Well, i was the kind of guy that didn't want to put crit in runes for the 100%. You wanna know what i did? i went for Youmus instead. What's better about it? It has a good active, it has the same AD value AND it gives you 20 armor pen. My rune setup with youmus build was 12 pen, 14 AD @lvl18 and the defensive stats depending the matchup. What i had late game was item 3087 , item 3031 , item 3035 , item 3072 , item 3142 and item 1301 . That gave me 400 AD, 32 flat armor pen and 39% armor pen and 100% crit. You know what that means? I did true damage to the squishy's and i decimated every tank with my ult pen and lw. Also i had a nice active to chase people and boost my AS even more. But the reason i changed it was the botrk i don't have as much armor pen but the damage vs tanks with the passive and the permanent AS boost plus that active is a lot stronger. So, to compensate i reduced my rune flat pen to 5 and put in 10% crit in the rest of my marks and Quints and kept me defences intact. What i get now depends on the game. I will either go full ham and get the same build as above but with item 3153 instead, or i will ditch the bt for a defensive item. both cases, i will delete anyone in my path. It was that mirrored yasuo that owned me in lane earlier but i got the time to farm and got fed by the rest of his team. He went for defensive items, i think a GA and a tri-force as well... I killed him in 1 Q, Ult and one AA. he had the wave pushed so i Q on a minion then E to get to him and EQ->R->AA dead. he took the hit from a fully stacked E, and the shiv. All the HP from Tri-force and his other defensive HP turned against him and i built full ham. he died like a fly, he couldn't even hit me once. That's the kind of damage you get with the IE-Botrk path. and the GA was poped by me in the last teamfight, my ADC took the kill tho. Tri-force is not very effective compared to other items on yasuo. it is better on other champions like Yi that can utilize it better.

Slamurai JackAug 24, 20151 votes

Holy wall of text batman. I will say a few things. Your build is extremely aggressive with no defensive item. That can be fine up to a certain point but once you get to high elo, you cannot realistically build Yasuo full damage without getting exploded instantly unless you snowball way out of control or have an amazing front line. I'm honestly not a huge proponent of Triforce Yasuo; I prefer to go Shiv IE and then Botrk or BT with 2 defensive items and a merc treads. I do think Triforce second has it's uses though if you have to split push top against someone like an Irelia or Jax. That extra mobility and health is a big deal against those kinds of champs.

I've played Yasuo probably about 750 games in the last couple of seasons and finally made it into diamond a couple months ago. I've tried building Yasuo in pretty much every way imaginable and I'm of the opinion that Shiv IE first 2 items is the optimal choice but things like Botrk or Tri force second are sometimes better or even necessary. Sometimes the utility of a Triforce is worth more for split pushing than an IE second, particularly if you're split pushing against someone who also builds a Triforce.

VasilisGreenAug 24, 20151 votes

Well, i didn't say i don't build defensive, i said i do it if it's very close. If i snowball hard there is no way i am going defensive. and the triforce with the less AS doesn't really help in spliting. if i have to build IE third item and change my second i' go for botrk. Tri-force is a big no. It gives you good utility but if you play mid vs some snowbally champions and you go tri-force instead of ie you give them a good chanceto snowball really hard on you. Well, in normals at least, with all the morrored matchups i've played, i am in a good spot to know the differences and i've seen how much better is the botrk. tri-force second can be effective in some cases but still, imo botrk gives more power. Sorry for the wall of text btw but i had some things to say. :P

Slamurai JackAug 24, 20151 votes

The triforce is good for split pushing because you can spam your Q for constant triforce procs, allowing you to take towers extremely quickly. Triforce takes down towers far faster than the other alternative options while also giving a ton of extra mobility to escape if people try to come and stop you. The only time I go Botrk second item now if if I'm against someone that stacks health early like a Shen or Cho'Gath. I would never go Tri second item mid lane though; mid lane Yasuo tends to group for teamfights sooner and more often and you need the Shiv IE powerspike to win those fights. And come on man, Tri only gives 10% less AS than Botrk but the spellblade procs more than make up for that AS in terms of tower pushing.

VasilisGreenAug 25, 20151 votes

Well, if you plan on splitpushing, since crits don't apply to turrets, the spellblade effect is indeed more powerfull but still, it is kind of inferior in duels and if you are against a champion like a Fiora, Garen, Darius, Irelia, and pretty much any strong champion you will need more power. And tri-force can't provide that power. It's better to hit your powerspike asap and after you get the statikk-ie, your power will just keep growing because as your stats go up, it multiplies a lot since you have that 100% crit. Tri-force is extremely situational. and since i only play yasuo in mid, i have never needed it.

WolfChasesAug 23, 20151 votes

You came here to ask why is Zed having "Free" stats on his W proposing it should be removed and added in his base AD?

Do you even play this game dude? Good luck playing against Zed with higher base stats early game.

That W bonus AD keeps him balanced through the every stage of the game, if you remove it and add it to his Base AD he would be obnoxiously strong early/mid game.

In the other hand, if you remove that bonus AD from his W and do not buff him somewhere else, his W would be just a fancy looking gapcloser which makes no sense.

AaravosAug 22, 20156 votes

The same reason why release Yasuo had a shield instead of resources and why Kalista is allowed to use his passive when she throws her q. The creator must overload his kit with something.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 22, 20154 votes

cause certainlyt

just had a zed with 476 AD at lvl 18, it's bullshit terribly bullshit

in death recap he had 1000 damage from AA from an AD caster

ZED G0DAug 22, 20151 votes

Thats actually pretty low haha, I usually max out zed @ 570AD by endgame

AMYS GRAVEAug 22, 20155 votes

CertianlyT did not design zed.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Bradford_'CertainlyT'_Wenban

He designed Darius, thresh, yasuo, and kalista. he also helped design zyra (which was a collaboration), and now is responsible for the morde rework.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zed/SkinsTrivia

Zed was designed by Samizul with an assist from RiotZiegler near the end[1]. CertainlyT helped out with some bug fixes and some design pitches for Zed but overall was not responsible for the creation for him.

NarasimhaAug 23, 20152 votes

Just don't try to bandwagon for the votes. Just... don't. Ignorance IS a sin.

Spizzle9000Aug 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

cause certainlyt

just had a zed with 476 AD at lvl 18, it's bullshit terribly bullshit

in death recap he had 1000 damage from AA from an AD caster

Pssst. Guess what? CertainlyT wasn't Zed's primary designer.

Furthermore, what does Zed trade for that AD? Being squishy and having no hard CC. That's a pretty big deal.

Also, a lot of Zeds build Youmuu's, BoRK (which will increase the damage you take on AAs), and IE. What the hell do you expect when he crits?

And, "OH NO A CHAMPION THAT BUILDS MOSTLY AD DOES DAMAGE WITH AUTOATTACKS!!!" Yeah. Makes sense. If you build a shit ton of AD, your auotattacks really shouldn't do any damage. Come on Riot! Nerf this shit!

WhiteFireOCNAug 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

cause certainlyt

just had a zed with 476 AD at lvl 18, it's bullshit terribly bullshit

in death recap he had 1000 damage from AA from an AD caster

"476 AD" "1k dmg AA"

Seems legit as hell.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"476 AD" "1k dmg AA"

Seems legit as hell.

implying he attacked one time

VasilisGreenAug 23, 20151 votes

476? Lol, only that? I generaly get 510+ depending on runes and i go 600+ with baron and a item 2140 . 1000 damage from AA just takes 1 crit since all zeds exept me make an item 3031 now. And, you said it yourself, AD caster. AD also aplies on AAs so, it would be strange if he didn't do much damage with AAs. also, in the case that he didn't crit, it would take 3 AA to do that damage and if you stayed next to him for so long, don't be surprised. He is melee and with a short AA range. Was he even full build at that point?

WolfChasesAug 23, 20151 votes

And than you realize he had full build with item 3031 and item 2140 and that 1000 damage was actually a crit when his target was below 50% HP and his Passive did it's job.

Don't be funny, not only Zed can do that much damage, dare you to see what full build Rengar can do to a squishy with Unseen Predator :D :D :D

JustMyBassCannonAug 22, 20153 votes

The reason for his W passive is an increase in his scaling late-game that isn't directly tied to his Q, E, R or AD per level.

It's like when a champion has some ability effect that scales on their level.

SwapShadowsAug 23, 20152 votes

Well when your build consists of always getting botrk and youmuus and last whisper you aren't left with much AD which is why he has bonus AD on W.

His autos are very important which is why he relies on youmuus and botrk late game and honestly those 2 items are must haves because he can't rely on his ultimate the entire game.

SouL1essAug 23, 20151 votes

Because Zed is a terribly great laner and a terribly bad assassin.

The bonus AD on W is there to forcefully "fix" Zed's power curve, and balance out the great early laning and bad teamfight / kill presence.

Lotus BladeAug 23, 20151 votes

I wonder how would people react if zed would be back to how he was before he was guted lol

TyroneWatermelonAug 23, 20151 votes

because easy to learn and overloaded kit. dont forget the #LCSBIGPLAYS

SEKAIAug 23, 20151 votes

Because his kit is very/rather limited and 1 dimensional like Master Yi so he needs an extra hand for him to do his 1 job better. Ah.....

Well let's try again. Because after activating his W he would lose the passive so it's a risk and reward system like Master Yi. Opps....

I was just teasing you. It's because Zed doesn't have a very high bursts in mid game like say Master Yi who has Alpha and Highlander to do the job. Teehee just testing.....

Umm......

Because Zed has high skill cap that's why. You lost OP!!!