Xin now fits his lore!

Unpaladin·Jan 28, 2016·174 votes·6,891 views

He is now actually capable of beating 300 enemies at once. As long as they are on the PBE server. ######He can also solo baron at around 25 minutes with raw AD (20 with sated and rageblade), which might be a major issue

79 Comments

BrahmsauceJan 28, 201662 votes

I donno I think the Riot team is trolling us. Even most people can see these buffs will be a problem.

Weiner the PoohJan 28, 201613 votes

{quoted}

I donno I think the Riot team is trolling us. Even most people can see these buffs will be a problem.

nah man, these are fair, i mean, who doesnt want to be crit to death by a full tank Xin who has only devourer for damage items?

Old Man TeetoJan 28, 20165 votes

full tank Xin who has only devourer

Hmmm...

Also I think they'll tone it to like 20/30/40/50/60%, instead of flat 60%, just a first run test to see if it's too much.

ZeralyosJan 28, 201643 votes

It's not a flat 60%, that's at rank 1. It scales up to 100%...

I want some of Riot's weed, it must be strong stuff.

Old Man TeetoJan 28, 20163 votes

Oh god I missed that.

Now I'm actually scared.

Avios1Jan 28, 20164 votes

You'll be even more scared to hear this.

I have a PBE account, and it turns out, you can solo baron right at 20 mins if you have Sated, Guin, and a crossbow.

Ima just go hide when he comes live.

Ariel the CruelJan 29, 20161 votes

Meh. That still makes him but a shadow of his release self. ;p

Avios1Jan 29, 20161 votes

Yeah...

Hes still scary tbh, even if he is a shadow.

HighH1Jan 28, 201611 votes

run a test...yeah like Riot has a good track record of listening to PBE people. That's a fact but downvote me if you want

NullDragonJan 28, 20165 votes

Yeah, the last time they listened to PBE feedback, we had post-rework release juggernauts.

MatezoideJan 28, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, the last time they listened to PBE feedback, we had post-rework release juggernauts.

Eh, not really.

Darius had to be buffed on Release before he became a problem.

Mordekaiser doesnt count because CertainlyT ignored all feedback.

Garen and Skarner were problems though, but they were legitimately weak on the PBE at first. At least they are better than pre-Juggernaut.

ZGM DazzlingJan 28, 20161 votes

Which turned out to be a disaster because everyone complained that Skarner and Morde where trash.

JAGMAGJan 28, 20163 votes

well morde was/is trash they just gave him so much raw power to make up for the fact he was/is trash but then he was to powerful and they had to tone it down (he is trash again) skarner is sorta the same thing the moment they turn his raw numbers down he goes from top tier to trash his kit is not good unless you have raw numbers but then it becomes too good

GrReaper96Jan 28, 20163 votes

item 3931 item 3124 item 3153 item 3031 item 3071 full AD Xin ftw

KeevalroyJan 28, 20164 votes

I donno I think the Riot team is trolling us.

Incorrect on a number of levels. Your logic applies to a balance team that understands what they're doing to the game, and then it would be a funny joke. This one however, hasn't had a clue for just short of 2 straight years and seem to be near the point of accepting it.

A Miss FortuneJan 28, 20167 votes

Same people who buffed Lee Sin, they're trolls for sure.

ElegantDogeJan 28, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GevtJLeb,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2016-01-28T04:31:51.185+0000)

Same people who buffed Lee Sin, they're trolls for sure.

Lee sin buff is not even a problem.His winrate barely moved.

Synx7Jan 28, 201612 votes

{quoted}

Lee sin buff is not even a problem.His winrate barely moved.

says win rate when he's picked in 70% of the games. Fucking obviously the win rate is low/average

ElegantDogeJan 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

says win rate when he's picked in 70% of the games. Fucking obviously the win rate is low/average

Like before ?Lee sin has always been a high played champion.(30-35%) If you believe this buff was too much for lee,you never saw him when he was the number one "PICK OF BAN" champion.

A Miss FortuneJan 28, 20163 votes

For a champion who's typically considered really hard to play, he's seen in over 1/3 of every game and only has a 45% winrate.

Slamurai JackJan 28, 20161 votes

45% is really low when you consider that there's 10 champions in each game and therefore each champion has only a 10% influence on the game on average.

kile147Jan 28, 20164 votes

Not arguing that 45% isn't low, but something definitely seems off with that line of reasoning

Slamurai JackJan 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Not arguing that 45% isn't low, but something definitely seems off with that line of reasoning

Why? Each champion is 10% of the total champions in every game. That means, on average, you will have a 10% impact towards the outcome of the game. You want more than 10%? Then you need to take some % from the enemy and give it to yourself or your allies. If your winrate is 45%, then you are, on average, contributing far less than 10%.

kile147Jan 28, 20161 votes

That's just a really weird way to explain the contribution to the team, and an odd thing to correlate to win rate. A better way to put it is that champions are balanced around the idea of having around a 50% win rate, because that implies when playing with the champ that you and your opponents have an equal shot at victory. Things are obviously more complex than that but it's a good baseline. 45% is less than 50% so it suggests he may be underperforming.

In reality a lot of champions are balanced around having around 52% win rates, because they aren't picked a lot and picking the right champion into the right situation should give you a slight advantage. Conversely high pick rate champs should have slightly lower win rates because it's assumed they are being picked into more games that they should have the disadvantage in.

Slamurai JackJan 28, 20161 votes

Correct. Now the question is: How often should Lee have the advantage? He has a >50% winrate against 5 junglers and <50% against 39 of them. The junglers he does well against all have terrible winrates overall. He doesn;t even do well against champs he supposedly counters like Amumu.

kile147Jan 28, 20161 votes

Depends really, since to really gauge how often a champ should have the advantage you need to take skill curve, early-late game scaling, etc into account.

Overall I'd say that Lee may need buffs, but it's very hard to tell because his massive play rate skews his stats so much. I'd say 48% should be the highest his average win rate should get given his current pick rate though.

Slamurai JackJan 28, 20161 votes

The overall winrate doesn't really matter, because you're right, his massive playrate does skew it downwards. What really matters is this number: http://imgur.com/BJ5zOM9

And that number is literally among the worst in the entire game. Enemy jungler picks Lee Sin? You're probably gonna win, even if he's really good at Lee Sin. Lee Win? More like Lose Sin.

kile147Jan 28, 20161 votes

That's 1/3 of his playerbase though, meaning there's still a massive amount of picking going on there, probably into comps he should have the disadvantage in. If he was buffed to a point that his 125+ win rate was a normal level (ex:54%) he would probably be 100% pick or ban rate, which would be unhealthy for the game for a lot of reasons not even balance related.

He's a weird problem I see no obvious solution for.

Slamurai JackJan 28, 20161 votes

Other than the League community valuing him at a reasonable level instead of this massively inflated one (Both people who play him and people who don't), there is no solution. The people who play Lee massively overvalue his strength and the people who don't play Lee overvalue him even more than the first group. Until both groups seriously evaluate how good Lee is and adjust, he will remain a mediocre champion with a massive pickrate that can never be buffed for the reason you stated.

KaisadiIIaJan 28, 201610 votes

Lucian: 38% pickrate, 50% winrate. Ezreal: 32% pickrate, 51% winrate. Lee Sin: 27% pickrate, 46% winrate.

I know I will get downvoted for this.

ShonjlJan 29, 20161 votes

Its kinda hard to use winrate in Lee's case since he is so popular that a lot of bad players will keep him in check.

Ezreal to be fair almost anyone no matter how bad can play him. All he is is a Q bot that flashes around if something even makes him feel uncomfortable.

Lucian not really sure here. Only time I ever see him is by people that actually know how to play him, havent seen a bad one yet.

KaisadiIIaJan 29, 20161 votes

Statistically, the average Lee Sin player has more games with him than the average X player has with X champion, according to champion.gg

SaiannaJan 28, 20161 votes

Implying Riots balance team is farsighted.

Ariel the CruelJan 29, 20161 votes

item 3363 They got that covered. ;p

WookieJesuzJan 28, 201615 votes

Can confirm, just tested. Sated+Rageblade and you can 1v1 baron

MunchCrunchLunchJan 28, 201623 votes

{quoted}

Can confirm, just tested. Sated+Rageblade and you can 1v1 baron

oh god.

TyaldanJan 28, 20165 votes

its not that bad, if you know hes gonna be soloing baron, you can just go there at that time and get killed as he 1v5s and does baron to end the game sooner.

Supreme Senpai69Jan 28, 201613 votes

It's fine guys just use pink wards

TransgressorJan 28, 20169 votes

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/6c9/c80/50c/resized/scumbag-xin-zhao-meme-generator-minions-have-spawn-pentakill-565f59.jpg

Kinda shitty I know, but it was the only good one I could find.

Only Play DariusJan 28, 20162 votes

What people don't understand, is that these buffs only apply to his basic attacks, and being a melee if you can keep him off of you or outright stay away from him (which should be easier now since they increased the cooldown on his dash) then he's as useless as he was the patch before.

InHaruhiWeTrustJan 28, 20168 votes

i love the "increased the cool-down on his dash" comments from people who completely ignore they also buffed it by 2 second.... and since most xins max E last this will only be a nerf at lvl 17 and above(spoiler!! there's only one more lvl).

Only Play DariusJan 28, 201611 votes

{quoted}

and since most xins max E last

http://champion.gg/champion/XinZhao

Winrate jumps by 7% when maxing E first as opposed to Q

The Xin players you should be worried about don't max E last

Sir YamazukiJan 28, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GevtJLeb,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2016-01-28T05:03:43.060+0000)

http://champion.gg/champion/XinZhao

Winrate jumps by 7% when maxing E first as opposed to Q

The Xin players you should be worried about don't max E last

He said most people max it last, which your source supports his claim as it shows up on the most frequent skill order. There's a difference between maxing E first winning more, and maxing E first being what's done frequently.

ChaoticPineconeJan 28, 20166 votes

I think its because the Xins that snowball benefit more from maxing E than maxing Q. Probably the same reason that Xins that run all attack speed runes have the highest win%. Because when they snowball, they snowball harder.

Its not "max E and win". Its "max E, and if youre already winning, youll win more". An E-W-Q max xin doesnt really get much damage until he gets sated, so if you havent lost by 20 minutes, youre in a good position to carry.

DroogzyJan 28, 20165 votes

{quoted}

i love the "increased the cool-down on his dash" comments from people who completely ignore they also buffed it by 2 second.... and since most xins max E last this will only be a nerf at lvl 17 and above(spoiler!! there's only one more lvl).

I'm not sure who you're playing with, but most people I know that play Xin, including myself will max E first.

MeatThrottleJan 28, 20161 votes

Keep in mind, these are the same people who want to rework Vel Koz...

And who reworked Skarner. And Ryze. And Cassie. And Olaf. And Morde. And Karma. And Sion. And then gutted them when it was too strong and left them to hang.

Hedgehog HustlerJan 28, 20162 votes

Sion is fine out of all of these listed. Olaf is whatever. Karma really needed the rework from what I could tell and is a strong supp and midlaner (though not at the level Sona is for those roles).

Radioactive ManJan 28, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Dreemurr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GevtJLeb,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-01-28T15:31:35.474+0000)

Sion is fine out of all of these listed. Olaf is whatever. Karma really needed the rework from what I could tell and is a strong supp and midlaner (though not at the level Sona is for those roles).

Karma didn't need the rework. What Riot should've done was just say look this champ has a high skillcap, she takes effort to use. This was back when three hit passives were considered new and exciting.

OdinakosJan 28, 20162 votes

Karma did not have high skillcap, she was easy to use. She was hard to play because she was weak. And strong only when way ahead. Buying Karma was my biggest regret until she was reworked.

As support she was litteraly the worse support exept in the case you had a melee fed assasin. And still there were better options like tanks to initiate and cc enemies.

As mage she was short range with a big nuke. And thats it. There were others that could do that job safer, better and/or with more utility. There was absolutely no reason to run Karma instead of Annie, Lux, Cassio, Anivia or.. pick any mage.

At least now as support she has clear strengths in bullying, poking and disengaging. She offers similar qualities top being able to bully melees better than before. And no guys she uses other Rs but Q. RE is a talisman, RW is great for 1v1s. I admit that RQ is used most thought. While back then... R shield. That was it. Maybe an RQ now and then but mostly RE.