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I agree Lee is too strong, but...

Mira Arya Enthe··42 votes·3,050 views

#Let's be clear on a few things.

Nobody can deny statistics(unless they are willfully ignorant). Lee is too strong, he does fall off late game, he is hard to play, he does need nerfs. This is all numerically supported.

Now, the question is HOW should he be nerfed and to what extent? I don't believe in gutting a champion just because I dislike them, so here are a couple things to consider.

Games are currently closed out early, Lee is strong early, he never gets to fall off. So firstly games need to last longer, which will nerf him by proxy.

#But I do think some direct changes are needed.

First and foremost his ult stuns prior to displacing you. This should be trimmed to stun only during the displacement, not for a period before and after.

Secondly I would cut the execute damage of his Q in HALF. It makes his early too toxic.

Third I would increase the CD of his Q and W by 1-2 second(s) at ALL ranks. This may not seem like much but it gives that 1-2 extra second(s) to escape, catch or kill him off two abilities.

These are the direct nerfs I would hit him with. These all combined would destroy his toxic early game and bring it into tolerable levels.

#Why not ward hopping? I would actually prefer it be removed. But like with Katarina and Jax to come, it is central to his current design. I would remove it when he is reworked eventually. For now I think these three key changes would make Lee FAR more tolerable. Means easier to counter prior to and after getting ulted, no massive execute burst, longer Q and W cooldowns meam fewer free kills and escapes for him, and more punishment for escapes. Longer Safeguard CD is also doubled when jumping to wards so even more punishing.

Thank you for reading. Post your thoughts below.

71 Comments

NicolBolas149165 votes

While I certainly agree that you can't deny statistics, they are still only numbers on a page, and many factors are able to affect them. Just because Lee Sin's winrate goes down as the game goes on doesn't mean that he becomes less annoying, only that he wins less. This could be due to any number of factors, such as the qualities of an average Lee Sin player, or that his role in the game becomes different. That all being said, I still hate Lee Sin.

Salson4 votes

The Jungle is currently in a "gank like a madman" meta. Surprise surprise one of the best gankers in the game is strong.

Honestly i would rather change the meta into mid game jungle tanks, should hurt Lee enough to not see him every game.

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

But how? How would you do that?

Salson1 votes

For a good answer, we might need a diamond player.

Maybe lower the gold and exp on camp, then lower the respawn timers as well. It could punish endless ganking by putting the ganker behind IF he fails the gank. Anther option is lowering jungle sustain as a half hp "meta jugler" can recover to full from one camp, but that kind of destroys non meta ones.

Voluug131 votes

How about we make the jungle easier but target nerf extreme junglers like Lee Sin, and extreme waveclearers like Shyvana, so their jungling is as fastt/binary, but with compensation buffs/power shifts?

Eedat4 votes

If we can have an actual discussion with real numbers I am more than willing to give my 2 cents

I disagree that the majority of games end before he falls off. Lets look at more of the data

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/infographics/patch-7-8-infographics

Average game time is ~28-30 minutes. Statistically that means that roughly half of games will finish before that, and half afterwards. Keep in mind that also includes FFs which are always going to artificially deflate game lengths.

We can cross reference to his win rate by game length:

http://imgur.com/Hd8XajY

If we compare, you can see his winrate is higher (52.1%) up until 25 minutes. Referring back to the first link, we can see that only ~19% of games end before 25 minutes. He falls off to only 50.8% by the 25-30 minute marker. He hits a practically dead even 50.2% by 30-35 minutes.

His numbers really dont seem off to me at all tbh.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 votes

part of his strength is the early game... he has a strong base kit... lots of mobility, some tankyness and good damage. he excels at early game ganks and clears which if he can pull off gets his team ahead and when you get ahead its hard to lose. but if you just don't let him do that... and expect the 2:30 gank on your blue side jungle and ward properly it will negate a lot of that... but no one does that.. no one invades and steals his jungle and put him behind... they mindlessly play with out thought to how do i beat this champ?

Anags3 votes

Uh, who is going to invade and kill lee early? He has great clear with built in sustain that was buffed not long ago.

The lee would have to play poorly for that to happen.

Personally I could care less what they do or don't do to lee. My guess is nothing happens to anyone until after the tank update.

I'm surprised more high level streamers don't complain about or at least ban him. I see a lot of lee sins just snowball games in the high elo streams I watch. I guess everyone is okay with it.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 votes

lee actually had a sub 50% win rate the last few patches, he was so bad he wasn't even picked in the LCK and when he was he had a win/loss of like 1-11 outside the jungler for SKT.

and there are a lot of really good counter junglers , if we all know lee is gonna start red take his blue... if he is gonna start blue take his red , lee typically starts on the buff on his duo lane side. isn't udry one of the best counters to lee , you can 1 vs 1 him early and just take his camps fast. ivern ? just do the lil tap thing and boom camp is gone.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

What high level players tend to dislike is stat check. Having all skill and strategy overwritten because x champion/item just has numbers. They tend to have fewer problems with a player just playing better than them.

Niyumi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GY9EE2An,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-04-22T19:07:39.582+0000)

What high level players tend to dislike is stat check. Having all skill and strategy overwritten because x champion/item just has numbers.

Just like an entire class of champions that I complain about a lot... hmm.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

If I recall correctly you complain about the very champions high skill players like. One's who win or lose based on comparative skill and team strategy. Stat check is things like Mundo or Garen with a side of Yi and Shyvana.

Niyumi1 votes

  • Braindead ADCs that right click and either auto win or do literally nothing (and melee ADCs like Yi and whatnot) -- Ashe, Cait, Jinx, etc.

  • Champions that are absolutely braindead, yet are far stronger than much harder champs (Compare Annie to Taliyah, for example), Pan, etc.

  • Tanks that build one item into full tank and do four times the damage of an AD mid laner (Darius (though you can avoid his damage), Hecarim, Mundo, etc.)

  • Champs like Lee, Riven and Yas that don't actually have meaningful counterplay, and win or lose based on what THEY do.

That's what I complain about.

Chromatic Eagle8 votes

ADCs have to position and move constantly to avoid dying. I wouldn't call that auto winning, though there are adcs that need tuning.

I'm fine with Annie having more skill expression, and Pan needs a VGU anyway.

Darius, Hecarim, and Mundo aren't tanks. Two are juggernauts, and idk what Hec is honestly. Diver?

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Hecarim is the pedophile. He pops out of nowhere and fucks you up.

SH Azykan1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsRYVR9Bqiw seems like a fitting place to link this...

GULAG 4 U2 votes

The video I was referring to xd

Melledoneus1 votes

Hecarim is the love-child of a vanguard and a diver.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

You show an immense lack of knowledge with this post.

No meaningful counterplay. Yet most Diamond through challenger players say they are fine knowing how to play around them. And it is 99% Bronze-Gold players who bitch about them despite them being weak in those tiers. Lee is too strong and all three are pests but none have zero counterplay. Despite almost entirely being played by one tricks plat+ Riven has a 49% win rate. Yasuo is 47% top 49% mid. With average play+ban rates for popular champions. If they legitimately lacked counterppay they would be like Kalista, Azir and Aatrox. Who all took over the meta so hard they were gutted.

ADCs may have a low entry point like most tanks or enchanters. But their orb walking and positioning has some of the highest skill demands in the game at optimal levels.

Darius and Mundo are Juggernauts and Hecarim is a Diver. None of those are tanks. Mundo is outdated and Hecarim has some counterplay issues. Darius has counterplay and is tuned okay he is just very oppresive in laning if you make one mistake.

Niyumi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GY9EE2An,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2017-04-22T21:44:37.113+0000)

No meaningful counterplay. Yet most Diamond through challenger players say they are fine knowing how to play around them. And it is 99% Bronze-Gold players who bitch about them

What counterplay does Lee have? What can I PERSONALLY do to make him not mash all his buttons, and still catch up to me and one shot me even if he misses everything?

What can I do to stop Riven from having a shield for all her health on top of one shotting even tanks?

Counterplay is something like avoiding Vlad's empowered Q and E, or not getting combod by Taliyah, or stunning / running from Camille as she's ready to use her true damage kick, or jumping into Darius' Q to avoid the outer ring. That's counterplay. Spamming CC until someone dies, or going nowhere near them... that's not counterplay.

ADCs may have a low entry point like most tanks or enchanters. But their orb walking and positioning has some of the highest skill demands in the game at optimal levels.

HA! HAHAHAH! Orb walking? You do know that doesn't exist in League, right? That'd be DOTA. There's no turn speed in League.

And uh, sorry, but LITERALLY EVERY SQUISHY CHAMP IN THE GAME needs to position well or instantly die. Not exclusive to ADCs.

So, ADCs are the easiest, safest, most reliable class for nothing! Fun stuff.

Darius and Mundo are Juggernauts and Hecarim is a Diver. None of those are tanks. Mundo is outdated and Hecarim has some counterplay issues. Darius has counterplay and is tuned okay he is just very oppresive in laning if you make one mistake.

A tank is something that takes a lot of damage without dying. All of those champions fit that term.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Riven from having a shield for all her health on top of one shotting even tanks?

Didn't even read past this. It took me in practice mode a full AD, 3 red drake, elder dragon and Baron to get just over a quarter of my HP on my 1.5s shield. An unrealistic scenario. Normally her shield with a BC into lethality build won't shield a full GP Q with Tri-Force or Pantheon Q with Youmous. It is removed with 1 ability.

One shotting a tank. Pffffffttt she isn's even Fiora or Vayne who actually obliterate tanks. Same build and scenario above in practice mode with a full lethality AD build and every resource on the map plus ignite and red buff. A full 4 seconds blowing everything Riven has 3 Qs, 3 AAs, ignite, Hydra, both segments of ult, W all in the correct order. 5100 damage in an unrealistic scenario full build lvl 18 vs a 100 armor target with no tanking steroids, passive items, active items, runes or masteried.

Good fucking luck with that.

But just to satisfy the utter bullshit that is your post. I will get exact calculations(vs a silly experiment I did), undeniable math, when I get home.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Full burst combo vs a 100 armor target(who has no runes masteries item passives or actives or abilities for mitagation) when done in the correct senquence, a normal Riven build not done intentionally over the top does 2700-3500 depending on variables like when she ulted(at what HP point) or what order she did her abilities to optimize usage of passive, exact build and thunderlords vs fervor. I tested several builds for this but also looked at some top Riven player's average burst combos.

Mind you this is with a BC and lethality so this target actually has 70 armor vs her at the start of the fight and 40 by six hits in. With Riven's standard build your average Nautilus(whom I play quite a bit) will have about 300 armor for simplicity. As Riven only buys two Lethality items and does not take the Lethality mastery this means if she goes Thunderlords path the tank will have 270 armor vs her when they begin fighting plus his shield, item passives, actives, summoner's and CC(which reduces damage taken). By six hits in(when much of her combo is blown already) he will have 180 armor vs her.

If she went with Fervor she will have more tank killing power but less CDR, less burst and less squishy blowing up power. With the fervor build she would get the 7% mastery for armor pen so he would have 249 armor vs her when she started the fight and when she was six hits into killing him(if his CC didn't prevent that) he would now have 165 armor vs her.

From the wiki

100 armor → × 0.5 incoming physical damage (50% reduction, +100% effective health).

Even if he was reduced to 100 armor he would still be reducing the burst of all of her damage(except Thunderlords but then she has less pen anyway) by 50%. But he isn't, worst case scenario he is left with 65 over 100.

So we are talking about the difference between 70 down to 40 armor vs 270 down to in the worst case 165 armor.

No, Riven CANNOT and WILL not one shot a tank unless they have built AP or some shit and she is drastically fed. Even then it will take her a full ability rotation. Riven blows up squishies with her high risk all in combo, not tanks.

As for her shield, standard build if you reach FULL build at lvl 18, you get 600 shielding with this build. An average ADC in the 1.5 seconds her shield lasts, at full build, will do between 1000-1600 damage(old DPS calculation from S6 damage amps have been cut since then so may not be accurate) and an average AP standard Nuke at full build will do drastically more than her shield in a single hit.

Anidan4 votes

DOTA player here: Players in League call stutter-stepping orb-walking. That's just how it is. When I was talking about it with my brother (who plays more League) I was annoyed that it's called orb-walking because there are no orb effects in League that can be manipulated like that, but at the same time it's really not a big deal to differentiate them between games. Some games are just going to use one term to mean something else, and that's just how it's going to be.

Now, on to ADCs, as that one of my preferred roles and I tend toward support and pos 1 in DotA2: Yes, every squishy champion needs to position correctly to not die, but unlike most squishy champions ADCs have to do their damage over a sustained period of time. It isn't "Oh, at least I dropped my burst combo and killed a couple people" with most ADCs if they die quickly. For them it's more akin to "Holy shit, I didn't have time to do any damage." even if they both die within, say, 2 seconds. Unlike most other squishies, staying alive is paramount to do anything at all, not just live. A mage? They can do their combo and if they die then at least they did the bulk of their damage. An assassin? If they got the enemy ADC or mage then it was likely a worthwhile trade because most of their damage was going to be on cooldown for a bit anyway. For an ADC? They have to live to pump out their damage because they don't have the burst most other squishies tend to have. This makes them reliable in terms of sustained damage, but unreliable in that if their positioning is bad then you'll never see a bit of that damage come to fruition. This means ADCs, by their nature, are only ever easy, safe and reliable if the enemy team is basically worthless.

On to tanks: A tank is something that demands attention because of the disruption they cause, not just a damage sponge--this isn't WoW, there is more to being a tank than not dying quickly. They disrupt. Mundo doesn't disrupt through anything but damage. Tanks in video games, unlike real life, also don't tend to hit very hard, and so Mundo, who has high damage and survivability but low CC is not really a good tank. He's good at being a bruiser, but if he needs to protect an ally (something tanks are known for) or go into an enemy team and disable an important target (alternative thing tanks are known for) then he simply can't do those. His option is to run into the enemy line and hope to god that's good enough to draw meaningful enemy fire with the threat of his damage. Darius has pretty much this same problem in classifying him as a tank: He's hard to kill, but his main source of disruption of disruption is damage. Like Mundo, he has lacking mobility, low CC, but he makes up for that by bringing high damage and high survivability, I.E. not a tank.

Amumu Alistar Braum Blitzcrank Gragas Nautilus Malphite Maokai Rammus Sejuani and etc, these are tanks. They can, in fact, CC key targets or disrupt an enemy line on demand, they can peel for allies, and they can take a beating. Damage levels are variable but it tends to meander somewhere around "low" to "mediocre" when properly balanced. They do enough damage to threaten a squishy, but their damage isn't particularly intimidating for someone building defensively, as opposed to Mundo and Darius who can threaten someone building defensively. They give you reason to focus them other than just damage; damage alone only puts you so high on the threat meter, because damage alone can't guarantee a kill. CC in a teamplay scenario, on the other hand, can net kills by making the damage significantly more targeted in that area or player. Like the ADC, the tank would like to live as long as possible but not for the same goal: he does it so the enemy team can't just get straight to killing squishies easily as long as a CC machine lives and threatens their livelihood with threat of being put in a very compromised position. Darius and Mundo want to live longer just to put out more damage because that is wherein their value lies. They are not tanks. They will never be tanks. They are juggernauts.

KoggyStyle1 votes

warwick was good at it in S3

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GY9EE2An,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-22T17:39:10.685+0000)

part of his strength is the early game... he has a strong base kit... lots of mobility, some tankyness and good damage. he excels at early game ganks and clears which if he can pull off gets his team ahead and when you get ahead its hard to lose. but if you just don't let him do that... and expect the 2:30 gank on your blue side jungle and ward properly it will negate a lot of that... but no one does that.. no one invades and steals his jungle and put him behind... they mindlessly play with out thought to how do i beat this champ?

But if you invade and he finds you you will die

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

maybe depending on the champ

udry nope he wins 1 vs 1 early vs lee... nunu ? nope he is too tanky can steal quickly with Q and heal while he throws a snowball in your face and spams laugh as he runs away with blood boil. ivern? nope tanky, and has the fastest clear ... amumu not really.. he is too tanky and can just Q over a wall to a monster just to name a few that can invade and take his jungle...

where lee excells is early game pressure and ganks... if you play a farm jungler vs him and expect to have your laners be safe and not give up kills then thats wishful thinking while you try to scale. and the stats show past 20 mins his win rate plummets ... so either be safe early and dont let him snowball the lanes or himself . or pick later game champs play to your win conditions and scale and make him useless. oh and what stops most ganks? wards? cc? not being dumb?

Sammystorm2 votes

The stun is there to make it so that it isn't really wonky when he kicks you and you flash out or dash out.

Mira Arya Enthe7 votes

The stun during a displacement is normal. It is the displacement about half a second before and after the kick that bothers people.

MissingKayo1 votes

Um, the whole point of the stun before is because his ultimate is a point-and-click, but has an extremely long pre-animation time. It's to stop people from just walking away. They'd still get kicked in the direction Lee originally kicked them anyways, not based off their end position. So them being able to just walk around would make it look visually confusing. You can still QSS-Flash to change the direction.

If you don't want the stun before the kick, then make the animation instant instead of the long-ass delay it is now.

Arakadia1 votes

I have to QSS AND FLASH just to counter his ult?

MissingKayo1 votes

Um. It's the EXACT same as any other knockup.

Arakadia1 votes

Except Janna Yasuo Galio Velkoz can all be dodged. So its not the same.

MissingKayo1 votes

Wow it's almost like that's because all of them have knockups on basic abilities (besides Galio who has one on a massive AoE on ultimate).

And if you get knocked up by anything and Yasuo ults you, you can QSS-Flash to get out of his ult too. Same thing.

Arakadia1 votes

Wow, its almost like an ability being ultimate means it is powerful, but not nigh counterless.

MissingKayo1 votes
  1. Armor says hi.
  2. Positioning says hi.
  3. CC says hi.
  4. Health says hi.
Arakadia1 votes

What do you mean CC? He has his Q dash, flash, and his excessively reliable ward hop to close the gap, so CC won't last long. And he has higher than average base MS. If he's already in range, he has his slow too...

All your saying is counterbuild. I cannot position out of a Lee ult. All I can do is try to not get hit into more allies, because he can direct me where he wants. Sure, I can group and make it harder, but Lee isn't exactly a horrible team fighter. And you cannot stop a Lee ult without QSS and flash.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

He needs multiple things to be removed in his kit in favor of enhanced strengths

no more generalist no more mobile CC burst dps tanky character

but a diver that counters stealthed champions with Q and E

Arakadia2 votes

Imo he does fall off, but not enough. With his shields, often buying a Hydra, his ult being insane disengage, his AoE slow, his durability, and any other utility from items.

Compared to Pantheon, another early game champion who becomes a stun bot later, he doesn't fall off at all.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

{quoted}

Imo he does fall off, but not enough. With his shields, often buying a Hydra, his ult being insane disengage, his AoE slow, his durability, and any other utility from items.

Compared to Pantheon, another early game champion who becomes a stun bot later, he doesn't fall off at all.

And compared to Pantheon he has far more counterplay and a frankly worse early game tbh. Pantheon is more bullshit than Lee Sin could ever dream of being.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well Lee Sin is a lot stronger then Pantheon in the late game though since Pantheon usually doesn't have the damage to burn through tanks later on in the game and he doesn't have great ways of getting around the tanks (I guess he has his ult)

While Lee Sin has a bit more use late game with his utility with his ult which can be AoE knock up or disengage or pick (or Lee Sin basically trading his life to kill the enemy carry)

PermabannedGaren2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GY9EE2An,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-22T17:28:14.183+0000)

Games are currently closed out early, Lee is strong early, he never gets to fall off. So firstly games need to last longer, which will nerf him by proxy.

This is a big problem with the game right now and many problem champions atm could be made less so through this change.

#But I do think some direct changes are needed.

First and foremost his ult stuns prior to displacing you. This should be trimmed to stun only during the displacement, not for a period before and after.

No, not negotiable. It would make his ult the most unreliable point and click spell in the game. It would be horrible.

Secondly I would cut the execute damage of his Q in HALF. It makes his early too toxic.

If you're cutting his early game damage to pieces, how do you expect him to be anything but dog shit? As you acknowledged the champion is just not good late game. Drastic nerfs to his early game would make him a champion with no point of the game where they are strong and a point in the game where he is actually weak.

Third I would increase the CD of his Q and W by 1-2 second(s) at ALL ranks. This may not seem like much but it gives that 1-2 extra second(s) to escape, catch or kill him off two abilities.

I think this is probably fair.

These are the direct nerfs I would hit him with. These all combined would destroy his toxic early game and bring it into tolerable levels.

#Why not ward hopping? I would actually prefer it be removed. But like with Katarina and Jax to come, it is central to his current design. I would remove it when he is reworked eventually. For now I think these three key changes would make Lee FAR more tolerable. Means easier to counter prior to and after getting ulted, no massive execute burst, longer Q and W cooldowns meam fewer free kills and escapes for him, and more punishment for escapes. Longer Safeguard CD is also doubled when jumping to wards so even more punishing.

I think the jungle and the game itself should be retooled to allow playstyles other than Lee Sin's jungle playstyle to be viable. High pressure early game gank and invade junglers are pretty much all that's viable right now. Even Master Yi, the archetypical late game farming jungler, has modified his playstyle and build path to make way for more early game pressure and power.

macromite2 votes

fixing lee should be really easy.

Kill all the hidden power he has.

Rework w, remove ult snare.

(Needs to get rid of wardhopping and the stat button, should have an alternative to both)

PokladnicaZla2 votes

RITO; ˝We're aware that Lee has been on the strong side and it's time to nerf him,which will allow other junglers to be viable˝

Next patch ; Lee sin -3AD

charge attack2 votes

"I don't want to gut him but..."

  • cut Q damage in half
  • change CDs to be 2 secs longer on main abilities

I'm sorry friend but that's what GUTTING is called. You clearly underestimate how very small changes in damage can effect a champion.

Such as yasuo loses 20% damage on E and now no one maxes E anymore. Or vayne gains 20% damage on tumble and becomes the most OP ADC. Once reverted she's back to shit. Or Udyr loses 20 damage on his Q and goes from the OP Godyr to and absolute garbage champion (early last season, this combines with 3% MS nerf on Runic).

All you're literally saying is "gut this champion but hey look I'm with wardhopping so I'm more reasonable haha"

I barely play Lee but I'd rather have Lee in meta than let's say Volibear or Olaf cuz believe it or not he has much much more counterplay than these bafoons

Seekêr1 votes

"He is hard to play" would require and actual random sample experiment where you had people, who had never played him before, play him and then you recorded their scores. You'd also have to define what is an acceptable score so you can determine if they were effective or if they were detrimental to the team.

People making claims like this is the reason the boards community is full of salt. If you could actually prove these claims through research, no one would be able to argue.

But I agree with the rest of your post.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

That already exists on several stat websites with winrate by games played statistics that have held true on multiple sources for years(disregarding system glytches and post patch fluctuations)

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

According to LeagueofGraphs:

Lee Sin 0 Games: 44% Lee Sin 10 Games: 50% Lee Sin 20 Games: 52% Lee Sin 50 Games: 53% Lee Sin 80+ Games: 54%

None of these scream "Broken", though I do think he could use some nerfs, but not like the huge massive ones the boards suggest any time they dislike a champion. (They just outright want to gut them.)

Nymzo1 votes

I personally believe that Lee sin should get a rework on all his skills.

I'm surprised nobody mentions this when talking about Lee sin: why does he has 6 basic abilities?

I mean, I get the point that he has to use the first 3 before the 3 others but the fact that he has the same amount of basic abilities as them Jayce Nidalee Elise just add salt to the wound. The thing that make those 3 ''ok'' to have 6 basic abilities is because they lose an ultimate for it, but LeeSin ?

Not to mention that 2 of his basic abilities don't require a target to be use (first w and e).

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

I personally believe that Lee sin should get a rework on all his skills.

I'm surprised nobody mentions this when talking about Lee sin: why does he has 6 basic abilities?

I mean, I get the point that he has to use the first 3 before the 3 others but the fact that he has the same amount of basic abilities as them Jayce Nidalee Elise just add salt to the wound. The thing that make those 3 ''ok'' to have 6 basic abilities is because they lose an ultimate for it, but LeeSin ?

Not to mention that 2 of his basic abilities don't require a target to be use (first w and e).

To be fair his E and W separated are fairly lackluster abilities. W is like a defensive Jax Q with a higher cooldown, and then a Turtle Stance passive, E is AoE damage and then a slow+reveal. And his Q is more like 1 ability, although it's poke+gapcloser.

MooseLaBoss1 votes

the same can be said for renekton or panth.

they dont get to fall off when the game is already decided.

them insta winning lane is determined off champ picks.

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I genuinely feel bad for any nice people who main...
Gameplay414 comments
188
votes