I was wondering wondering if Karma and Zilean are considered Mage or more support because unlike any other support they don't seem to have utilities that scale with AP like Lulu. By utilities I mean Movement speed based on AP. I know Lulu is considered a support but she is constantly played mid and top and barely support.
HaiLnKill7 votesNone of those champs are immobile and their movespeed from skills are enough to not need any scaling at the first place
taleofsonata5 votesImmobile is not having an abilities that allow you to teleport at a location. Zilean,Karma, Lulu are immobile they just move faster. Cass gains movement speed for hitting her Q would that considered a mobile champion?
MisterHealYoGirl4 votesI'd define 'immobile' as 'unable to easily reposition'. Zilean, Karma and Lulu don't have that issue, despite lacking dashes or blinks. Cassiopeia can get additional movement speed from repeatedly hitting Qs, but it's very weak compared to those speed boosts and requires her to stop and turn frequently, as well as hit skillshots. It's more to let her keep up with targets while spamming her E cast animation than anything else.
Canidae1 votesHaving a conditional movement speed buff is much different from one that U can pop whenever. Also Cassiopeia's buff is 20% and requires U to land a skillshot, while Karma's is 60%, GIVES YOU A SHIELD THAT SCALES WITH AP, and can also be applied as an AoE buff with R. Zilean's scale's with the level of the skill, reaching up to a 99% (NINETY NINE PERCENT) buff, whose CD can be reset. But why Karma and Zilean?
U also literally picked some of the few champions who can constantly have a speed buff active when U get CDR. Next thing, I'll be hearing that Nami would be considered immobile cause her passive doesn't teleport you...
Jeddy0171 votesIf those champs don't count as immobile because they have speed boost,then why was 
& 
part of the Juggernaut update?
DeathBurst1 votesBecause immobile as a ranged character and immobile as a melee character doesn't mean exactly the same thing. A melee champ with the mobility of, say, Brand would be utterly un-viable.
VictoryDance963 votesI don't know if they is, but Karma and Zilean should definitely be in there.
Sukishoo3 votesThey are FAR from immobile mages.
FioraWillCarry2 votesNever played Zilean but I have played against him. He is surprisingly strong, even oppressive, and I'm talking about Ziliean mid.
Karma, well yeah, she needs some kind of fix.
While on the topic of mage updates, I hope they don't touch Azir in the next round of reworks. If they rework Azir, I'm quitting this game. Azir is the only reason I enjoy this game as much as I do. Most fun champion in the game by far and one of the most effective without being Ebola like Fizz.
An Azir rework is what I fear most with all this talk about mage updates. I'd sell my soul to the devil for them to leave him be lmao.
khorney1 votesi think azirs ult should block moves like yas windwall :) in addition
FioraWillCarry1 votesi think azirs ult should block moves like yas windwall :) in addition
As an Azir main I'd love that too but it would be far too powerful. It would be impossible to win teamfights with even a slightly competent Azir in the mix.
Hmmm, it does give me an interesting idea when you have Azir and Yasuo on the same team. What a powerful combination Yas's and Azir's walls would be together in a teamfight. It would block every thing except Flash, Kassadin's ult and Ezreal's blink, Karthus's ult, Sona's Q, Sona's ult, Soraka's ult and Soraka's Q.
khorney1 votesi mean yas windwall is not a ult and that blocks projectile but you can walk through it mean while azirs wall is a ult and the wall is soldiers with shields ..... SHIELDS why wouldnt that also block projectiles lol i mean come on its no diff or better then anis wall of ice tbh. azirs is strong but people have been saying he is op im not seeing it to tbh
Krys Star1 votesRiot said they'd never rework Azir, that he just needs tweaking and adjustments to make him more accessible without breaking him... Besides, he's not an immobile champion. He's very mobile, and even if they did rework Azir, I don't think you quitting would stop Riot considering the outrage over Cassiopeia's and Karma's rework didn't stop them. :(
FioraWillCarry2 votes[{quoted}](name=Frozen Beauty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GX4cUH0i,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2016-01-10T22:45:26.069+0000)
Riot said they'd never rework Azir, that he just needs tweaking and adjustments to make him more accessible without breaking him...
Thank God. I wouldn't quit as a protest or anything.
[{quoted}](name=Frozen Beauty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GX4cUH0i,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2016-01-10T22:45:26.069+0000)
I don't think you quitting would stop Riot considering the outrage over Cassiopeia's and Karma's rework didn't stop them. :(
lol I'm not quitting in protest or anything. The game just wouldn't be fun for me anymore. Azir for me is the most fun champion in LoL. I like him the way he is now and don't want him changed. Hell, he's half the reason I love this game. I play other champs too but Azir is like that abusive lover you just keep going back to lmao. I can't imagine playing this game without being able to play him.
Krys Star1 votesYeah, I know what you mean. I had to go through my mains being fotm, then facing reworks (Cassiopeia, Soraka, Karma, Miss Fortune, Ashe). Forrtunately, Ashe and Miss Fortune became more fun and healthy. Cassiopeia and Soraka, however, always face community backlash and outcries and receive nerfs upon nerfs. =( Best of luck to you continuing to enjoy Azir!
Sassmast3r1 votesI'm interested in hearing what fix you think Karma needs. I honestly think Karma's in a relatively healthy spot right now, the only thing they could consider (and this would be a big change) is figuring out how to make her other two Mantra'd abilities (W and E) more helpful.
FioraWillCarry1 votesI'm interested in hearing what fix you think Karma needs. I honestly think Karma's in a relatively healthy spot right now, the only thing they could consider (and this would be a big change) is figuring out how to make her other two Mantra'd abilities (W and E) more helpful.
Can't put my finger on it but when I play her as support she feels lackluster compared to other supports. Maybe its my noobness but I can't seem to grasp her which never happened to me with any other champion beside Vladimir. It only takes 10 games at most to figure out what how you should be playing a champion, anything after that is learning how to play them better and better. But with Karma, feels like there's no effective way to play her. I like her but she is awkward to play.
Anu3isII2 votesThen play her mid? As a support, she will always feel weird...
FioraWillCarry1 votesThen play her mid? As a support, she will always feel weird...
What Anubis said. She's going to feel weird due to the fact that as support, you have to focus on supporting your teammates while simultaneously trying to build Magic Penetration, AP, Health, Mana Regen, etc. In mid, you are only concerned with your own build, so trust me when I say that she is much less awkward there. But I definitely see what you mean.
Fair enough. I'll try her mid and see how it goes.
Sassmast3r1 votesWhat Anubis said. She's going to feel weird due to the fact that as support, you have to focus on supporting your teammates while simultaneously trying to build Magic Penetration, AP, Health, Mana Regen, etc. In mid, you are only concerned with your own build, so trust me when I say that she is much less awkward there. But I definitely see what you mean.
Aezanthya2 votesNever played Zilean but I have played against him. He is surprisingly strong, even oppressive, and I'm talking about Ziliean mid.
Karma, well yeah, she needs some kind of fix.
While on the topic of mage updates, I hope they don't touch Azir in the next round of reworks. If they rework Azir, I'm quitting this game. Azir is the only reason I enjoy this game as much as I do. Most fun champion in the game by far and one of the most effective without being Ebola like Fizz.
An Azir rework is what I fear most with all this talk about mage updates. I'd sell my soul to the devil for them to leave him be lmao.
They're reworking him.
Also, Karma is fine. Play her mid, get the freelo.
Evenstar2 votesI don't foresee Zilean & Lulu as a part of the mage update, but Karma. Since Zilean and Lulu always functioned better when paired with someone else, but with Karma, it's a whole different story. The funny part is Karma's rework was meant to give the niche of a champion who could go mid and do well, which means she's supposed to be offensive oriented but with utility to be good at bot too, but meta and changes has a funny way of letting things happen and so Karma is now support in the balance team's eyes.
Common things to answer...
The balance team doesn't want to touch Karma not because they think she's okay, but because no one has an idea of what to do with her, FeralPony has been very forthcoming with his answer when someone asked about Karma months ago. He generally thinks she's in an ok spot now, but Karma has always been in an ok spot, but what's really ok about her? What keeps her relevant now is Windspeaker's Blessing which brings her support efficiency to an improvement, but she's otherwise your same ol' boring Karma.
Main thing is that the team does not know what to do with her, and the culprit of it is her Mantra. Riot has been so obsessed with accentuating Mantra's identity that everything in Mantra is overtuned but still underwhelming, and her abilities are also lackluster. Because they wanted to put out that one charge, ultimate Mantra, it ended up putting Karma in a difficult spot. Rather than to accept that Mantra will play somewhat similar to Jayce's or Elise's R, which is to provide additional utility, dps/damage, they put everything in to Karma's R without knowing it would cost her everything.
Players generally don't play her mid because she doesn't have something, that's true. No amount of "play her mid, she's good" will ever save her from the embarrassment of being a failure at mid. She has always been strong early-mid game, but when late game came, no matter how well you do, your abilities are less impactful by then. That's what makes her balanced in a faulty way, you're expected to snowball hard with her and win game early or lose everything you owned at. That's not a very meaningful counterplay, by the way. It also answers about whether Karma is healthy, which is a no. No because it's harmful to herself and harmful to others, she's got a very funny power curve (google Gompertz Curve), While other AP Mids have an exponential curve as they scale in to late game, Karma's power curve remains static.
She's in an okay spot because she's not exactly causing trouble, but at the same time, it's not okay because she's been so static, not stable. She doesn't do well but she doesn't do bad, she's stationary at best.
So yes, she deserves some fix. Karma lacks a niche in Riot's eyes, but the players fill it up for her anyway, so Riot's comfortable with it because players are comfortable with it. But the bigger problem no one wants to agree on is that the balance team has no idea what to do with Karma because her Mantra is problematic, and that's why Karma's in such a static spot too. And saying "if you don't like her at mid, play her support" vice versa is not exactly a good solution, so is saying "Karma is fine now, because she can jungle, top, mid, bot all at the same time" .
What to suggest? I suggest removing all her crowd controls and amp up her utility, so she'll get good stuffs like aoe heal, speed, and more damage. Personally, I don't think her W fits her overall, I never understood why an enlightened champion has a dot soul damaging ability with a snare and self heal, it's so weird. Karma has always been portrayed as someone who suffers and enjoy along with her people, she should have something that accentuates that spiritual link.
TL;DR, Riot doesn't know what to do with Karma because Mantra is in the way, their comfort with her is another thing.
chipndip11 votesNone of these champs probably are. They said immobile mages in the mid lane, so I'm thinking more champs like Lux/Vel/Malz/Cass/Anivia. They might surprise us with a support champ, but I actually doubt it. Don't get your hopes up is all I'm saying.
taleofsonata2 votesZilean and Karma hits hard but they are played in the support role because they lack something in a solo lane. Just like Lux and Morgana, Karma can shield herself and root ppl with her W + she has a R that empower her spell. Zilean has bombs that has a 90% ratio on them and can stun dealing a 180% harass damage. Lulu has tons of utilities but is not played in the support role because her utilities scale off AP which she gains more gold in a solo lane aswell as scaling very well into a late game support type of champion.
chipndip11 votesZilean and Karma hits hard but they are played in the support role because they lack something in a solo lane. Just like Lux and Morgana, Karma can shield herself and root ppl with her W + she has a R that empower her spell. Zilean has bombs that has a 90% ratio on them and can stun dealing a 180% harass damage. Lulu has tons of utilities but is not played in the support role because her utilities scale off AP which she gains more gold in a solo lane aswell as scaling very well into a late game support type of champion.
Lulu is a support primarily, mage secondarily. You'd be lucky as hell to get an update on Lulu when it's targeted towards immobile mid lane mages, especially with that movement speed buff sitting in her kit.
LadyRenly2 votesZilean and Karma hits hard but they are played in the support role because they lack something in a solo lane. Just like Lux and Morgana, Karma can shield herself and root ppl with her W + she has a R that empower her spell. Zilean has bombs that has a 90% ratio on them and can stun dealing a 180% harass damage. Lulu has tons of utilities but is not played in the support role because her utilities scale off AP which she gains more gold in a solo lane aswell as scaling very well into a late game support type of champion.
Zilean can most definitely be played in a solo lane
A Miss Fortune1 votesThough Zilean (and Karma for that matter) can both definitely be played in solo lane they're usually always outclassed by another champion or many at a time. Both of them have great utility, but is there really a reason to play them over Orianna, Lulu, Anivia, Lux, etc?
LadyRenly1 votesI thought the mage update was for the immobile ones, you cannot call Zilean "immobile" with that speed of his
Earthlord Jazz1 votesI feel like they will be effected by the item changes regardless
Aeolian Melodies1 votesZilean just got a rework, Lulu and Karma are primarily considered supports for Riot, so unlikely for the three of them.
OFC if items are touched they'll be affected, for better or worse.
MunchCrunchLunch1 votesthey said only offensive mages. so no. at least that not what theyw ere talking about
Solidair31 votesLikely not. They are not looking to focus on supporty utility mages but more on burst casters who have very little strategic variety
Gigahappytown1 voteszileans kit right now is fine
He needs a real passive though.
Jeddy0171 votesThe immobile mage update is targeting damage focused mages,not support type mages.
LoquaciousKumqat1 votesI hope Sona is in there. I play her mid lane >_>
Earl Eulrich1 votesZilean pretty much has too, he´s just disgustingly broken atm (70%winrate plat+ for mains).
Rıots Bad Client1 votesI can confirm this. http://s11.postimg.org/uees4fjer/thisguy.png
AATTRROOXX1 votesRiot has stated that they will be focusing on offensive mages rather than supports like Morg and Sona.
Canidae1 votesPeople do run Zilean and Karma mid and I'm fairly sure that ppl still play Lulu as support. U just don't see it that often, cause it's hard to pull off and generally only done at higher elo.
OverpoweredSoap1 votesI don't really think Karma's in that bad of a spot.
She's just kind of boring to play at times.
Catastrop1 votesThese champions are hardly immobile, so no, they will not be reworked.
qetzel1 votesRiot Repetoir said that support champions like Sona and Soraka would not be included. My guess is that Karma, Zilean and Lulu also fall in this bracket.
forresto1 votesProbably not because honestly those are considered "support champs" by riot. of course people use them in various places, but riot likes to pick a general designation for which direction they focus a champ in.
xSleepy1 votesthe mage update in question is an "immobile" mage update so to speak, zilean just got a slight update, as did karma, so i doubt either of them are on the chopping block, and all three of these champions are far and away different in playstyle from the others that are supposedly included in the update
forresto1 votes*are
IxtaliKing1 votesThe mage update is only for damage focused immobile mages, although Karma does need her R+W/E brought up to par with her R+Q and possible another passive. She may be in an okay place gameplay wise, however her kit could have been executed a lot better.
DeathBurst1 votesA Red said that they would focus on the more offensive-oriented mages, not the support-y ones. So no they probly won't be included.
Phoenix Kotori 1 votesZilean & Karma have already been messed with enough I think & Lulu doesn't need it & they said supporty mages weren't in plans for the scope of it.
And immobile mages means 
is the group I'd imagine rito is looking at.
