What Role Should Assassins Play?

Ifneth·Mar 12, 2018·9 votes·1,289 views

As Riot is trying to help assassins, I have to wonder what they what the champions of that class to do, both for themselves and their team, and how to make that fun for everyone.

What do you want them to do?

Personally, I want assassins to have a higher kill threat during the early game, access high priority targets during the mid-game, and both snowball and fall-off harder than mages do. I think that the kill-threat, target access, and snowball are the most fun parts about the class but also the ones that will need almost constant attention from Riot because they can leave fed assassins as the only ones having fun.

44 Comments

CashfingerMar 12, 20188 votes

Honestly, like with the dark harvest now being available, I think assassins are in a decent spot, at least the jg assassin. Mid laner assassins have tools and natural scaling that most jg assassins dont so its kinda fine that their mostly limited to predator or electrocute cuz their natural scaling and outplay potential is pretty high usually. Like consider fizz and ekko right now... sooooo good.

With the dark harvest though, like kayn, shaco, khazix, etc... the jg assassins that can use this keystone and get really high stacks in the later game, they're stronger even than like full build diana, maybe only like on par with akali though.

Akali is something else, you do not want to give her late game cuz the instant wipe damage with the mobility and heals... like no wonder tf blade could consistently keep multiple accounts in top ten challnger with that champion last season. It's kit is godlike strong in the right hands.

IfnethMar 12, 20187 votes

My good sir, someone downvoted your excellent post. Here, take this upvote.

CashfingerMar 12, 20181 votes

Thanks man. First upvote I ever got <3

IfnethMar 12, 20181 votes

[slayer-jinx-catface]

ValyrianBladeMar 12, 20187 votes

I just want no champion to have 100-0 threat unless extremely fed and/or it's late game and you've built no defenses.

Assassins should not be finding priority targets and killing them from full health. Not 1v1 and especially not in the middle of their team.

Assassins should be the premier champions at finishing off targets that thought they got away.

Kassadin is probably the best example of this. You can't run from him. He can chase you down, finish you off, then get out. All while not having huge burst damage.

The other assassins though? They just have mobility to get on you and damage to kill you if they land it. Then abilities to get out after, whether they got the kill or not. It seems pretty unfair that they can repeatedly go for the 100-0 kill with nothing you can do about it. Your reward for dodging part of their combo is you survive at low health and they blew cooldowns so they're not a threat for a bit. Your penalty for failure is a death and they're even stronger next time, mess up more than once (or they get a kill they actually deserve where they roamed on a low health target) and then you won't even be able to outplay, they'll kill you with only their 1-2 most reliable abilities and the rest won't matter. That risk-reward metric is COMPLETELY bull.

Let assassins be expert roamers early game that can seriously threaten other lanes even when they're around 60-70% health (remembering they'll have an ally to do damage too). Make them experts at finishing off any target that your front line got damage on first in the fight. Give them the tools to get in on those targets, and get out IF they finished them off.

Don't leave them as a "roll a die, if 6 get a kill and lower the threshold by 1" champions.

Q zzyMar 12, 20182 votes

That's why I like assassins like Ekko. Unless completely fed, he doesn't really oneshot anybody but if you are low(60%) and he catches you he will kill you and ult out. He is a lot weaker with ult down so that leaves room for counterplay.

5050BSMar 12, 20181 votes

See this. Its called Healthy

ShablagooMar 13, 20182 votes

I never understood this idea why? Why should a champion that uses his full kit to kill you not be able to kill you? Assassins are just like burst mages, in that if they hit you with there full kit you die? Why should we punish players for playing right? A assassin isnt just about kill low targets they kill high priority targets, weaker may not even in the sense of having low health but low defense too. Also this idea that I should not be punished for being 1v1 when I know that assassins are champions that excel in killing in 1v1 situations, just as adc's excel in sieging, teamfighting, shredding tanks, killing squishies( oh woops wrong topic mb). Anyway they excel at killing targets, if they catch you alone they have already outplayed you in the fact that they get the surprise jump on you.

ValyrianBladeMar 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I never understood this idea why? Why should a champion that uses his full kit to kill you not be able to kill you? Assassins are just like burst mages, in that if they hit you with there full kit you die? Why should we punish players for playing right? A assassin isnt just about kill low targets they kill high priority targets, weaker may not even in the sense of having low health but low defense too. Also this idea that I should not be punished for being 1v1 when I know that assassins are champions that excel in killing in 1v1 situations, just as adc's excel in sieging, teamfighting, shredding tanks, killing squishies( oh woops wrong topic mb). Anyway they excel at killing targets, if they catch you alone they have already outplayed you in the fact that they get the surprise jump on you.

Well, I've left out other balance changes that would have to go with it.

Burst mages shouldn't be doing 100-0 damage either, with the same exceptions (fed, or late game against someone with no defense).

Burst mages could theoretically do more damage than assassins though, because they have little to no reliable way to get in range to deal that damage, whereas assassins are able to.

It's not that the assassin wouldn't be rewarded for playing right. If they get you one on one they'd still chunk you and force you to back. They just shouldn't kill you, especially when you're supposed to be in Lane 1v1 against them, and especially when you buy some defense against them. Also more, the right play would no longer be to blow your load on the enemy mid hoping they'll misplay and give you the kill, it's pressuring your opponent out of Lane and using your premier mobility to get elsewhere and finish off another Lane that's below 70%.

The problem I have with assassins is that, they're okay before they get any kills. I can survive any assassin in Lane 1v1. The first time they roam, and I ping it, but they get a kill anyways, they're suddenly able to 100-0 me when if I Dodge part of their kit AND built some defense. That's frustrating as hell to play against when they can reliably get on whoever they want. It's too easy for an assassin to turn 2 kills into a free kill literally whenever their ult is off cooldown.

Of course a lot else would need to change. A quick overview: Tanks need to be cc machines but not deal meaningful damage to champions themselves. ADCs need to lose a lot of damage. Shields and healing from supports need to come way down. Assassins and mages get less 100-0 pressure, mages should set up burst damage to help the ADC finish off targets faster, while assassins should quickly finish off anyone that's brought low (by ADC or otherwise) who would have otherwise got away.

Of everything though, a 2/0/0 assassin getting to instantly kill any squishy they see is by far the most frustrating league experience for me. I can build tabi and seekers and Zed can still 100-0 me because he got a double kill bot Lane when I pinged them to back off. So I sacrifice loads of my own damage and waveclear to invest in not dying to him early to not let a snowball happen against me, and he can snowball anyways because my allies made a mistake (same deal if I had made the mistake and died to him myself). And I'm not complaining Zed is OP by any means, I've never had a problem with him when allies listen to my ping when he's roaming, and I keep up vision so I always know which side he's going to (it's not like I'm pinging the whole map to back off) and I get his tower in return for those roams. He makes sacrifices for it, as does any assassin. They just get too frustrating right now. If they see the nerfs I'd want, of course every other role needs nerfs too though.

They're not imbalanced, just too feast-or-famine.

An assassin should be able to finish off a low health target, even when really behind.

Right now an assassin either gets ahead and kills everything at will, or falls behind and dies when trying to assassinate the 30% health ADC 1v1 (perhaps exaggerating a little).

Fear the KaynMar 12, 20186 votes

I would like assassins to be able to 100-0 a squishy from mid-late game. The counterplay to Assassins as a whole is keeping them away from you. Stay with your team, don't be a moron going to farm minions solo way past your tower and then complain about dying.

IfnethMar 12, 20182 votes

So, how do you make that fun, engaging, and interactive for the squishy? I’m not trying to bash your idea. It would just take some additional game mechanics to make that fun for both parties, and since Riot wants to work on vision, this would be a chance to add them.

Fear the KaynMar 13, 20183 votes

Because assassins for the most part are crap early game, that's your time to be alone and farm up. Once that assassin gets some items, it's probably mid game already. It is the support's job to keep assassins at bay with proper warding and their CC at that point, and for the squishy to not go into unwarded areas.

Kira Dusk EdgeMar 13, 20182 votes

But leaving the ADC living against assassins purely up to the support is not fun for the ADC. You can't give them 0 agency on weather they live or die in a team fight because of assassins.

Edit: plus it makes the game even more reliant on "protect the ADC" comp that everyone is complaining about.

ShablagooMar 13, 20182 votes

Ya like the protect the adc meta isnt a thing anyway....

5050BSMar 12, 20184 votes

NOT a 100-0 champ.

Assassins should be required to have targets be under 50% to just ult and kill you. There is LITERALLY no counter play to 100-0 and We have too much of that right now. ADC are a big part of that too and the #1 and #2 culprit is Crit and LifeSteal

Fear the KaynMar 12, 20183 votes

The counterplay to assassins 100-0'ing you is to stay with your team. Assassins are very squishy as well, and they need you to make a poor decision, IE: leaving your team to go farm a minion wave.

KanzlerMar 12, 20184 votes

You better give assassins some escape if you require their targets to be below 50% to be in kill range.

Dont quit your day job. You're a horrible game balance designer

5050BSMar 12, 20182 votes

Oh you mean like Zed Akali Fizz Diana Ekko Evelynn Irelia Kassadin Katarina Khazix Leblanc MasterYi Rengar Shaco Talon All have?

zaire90Mar 12, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Oh you mean like All have?

Out of all of them Ill give you Zed, Lb and Kass. Eve and Ekko I guess but they need to have their ults up. The rest either have no escape cause it had to be blown to get in or its too conditional/ not that great of an escape to run away from people that want you dead.

ValyrianBladeMar 13, 20181 votes

Akali escapes into her shroud. Katarina has a dash on zero cooldown (reset when lands on dagger) Diana gets her ult reset when dashing to a Q target Kha'zix has stealth and a reset on leap Fizz has a low cooldown dash, and a low cooldown invulnerability+dash. Plus his ultimate is aoe so allies can't stand on your target to cc you when you go in. Irelia is a bad example, I agree. However she still potentially has a dash on reset. Master Yi can go untargetable Shaco has stealth and a clone Rengar can remove CC still I think? Not the best example for getting out though. Talon can jump over walls, just has to leave in a different direction from where he came, shouldn't be hard.

I agree that if you're getting rid of 100-0 burst then other stuff needs to change. I'd argue the rest of the roster needs nerfs too though (way less damage on ADCs, less damage and tankiness on tanks but more cc (they'll effectively be tankier due to damage nerfs everywhere), less damage on mages, less shields and general utility on supports, etc...)

Break It DownMar 13, 20182 votes

Bruh if u dont use W as zed for Dmg , u cant kill anyone its a fact, and as soon as u use W , RIP dead, (coming from a zed who has account in every elo bronze->diamond, and total of 3mil+ mastery) And these champs here exlucing katarin,akali, eve and somewhat ekko, are borderline shit, Kha is the onlyone that's strong and thats because of Duskblade+Evolve R at lvl 6 ( which is broken), i mean unless u are in like silver or gold, u pretty much get PUNISHED hard if u pick these champs , especily zed, Seekers Armguard+ Tabi rush insta, and the enemy team ends up building 5 tabis and , thats the point where u lose the game. IMO just giving Buff to Black Cleaver should fix ad assasins, just give it 4 stacks x7% and they're pretty much back.

Spicy RiceMar 12, 20183 votes

IMO, that is exactly what they should be doing. Assassins should be murderizing you if you step out of position as an adc or mage, and at the same time, they should be blown the fuck up if they misread a situation

Kira Dusk EdgeMar 13, 20182 votes

Rocket tag gameplay is not exactly the most engaging...

Spicy RiceMar 13, 20182 votes

Maybe not, but it does keep squishy dps in check

PB4UAMEMar 13, 20181 votes

No it fucking doesn't. The insta burst, get caught by one CC into chain CC or insta 100-0 burst meta we have right now is specifically because of this.

It makes nothing else but as much squishy, long range, safe DPS as possible viable, let alone meta. You pick the bare minimum of frontliner/someone with a block ability ( Taric R, Shen W/R, Galio R, TahmKench W, Braum E) that you need, then the bare minimum of CC, then as much damage from ADCs/mages/assassins as possible that you can fit into one team, because nothing else can compete with it. They simply get melted by the damage before they can do anything meaningful, and the block abilities negate the other teams attempt at catches, if used properly.

5050BSMar 13, 20181 votes

Yep I stepped out of position under my turret with 100% hps

Spicy RiceMar 13, 20181 votes

Out of position, as in away from your tanks

You know, those people whose whole job is to keep the enemy from doing damage to you?

PoskeMar 12, 20184 votes

I think that your generalizing is bad.. Role shouldnt be asigned to a specific timeframe

However I do agree that assassins need stronger early

Talon cannot snowball good players Katarina lost her early power Zed is gated so hard by his W cooldown and energy early on I laugh Ekko is extremly overated trollpick at current state Akali is in good state Le blanc is in good state if you are me... else aparently she needs a revert because none has idea what they are doing Ahri needs mini buffs Kha zix is overpowerd Evelynn is extremly debatable to strong imo Twitch is cancerous whenever ahead Swim Q was more healthy on rengar despite looking dumb... + made him more in depth Nidalee relies on 1mm wide spear to a point she is enchanter in high elo Kassadin is to strong often banned.. if meta ever changes he is permaban Blue kayn is balanced Shaco is receiving some hopefully good changes on PBE Darknessssssss is just ....

ETC ETC

IfnethMar 12, 20181 votes

Assassins don’t fall off numbers-wise. They fall-off because champions group more as the game goes on, some of them build enough health and resistance to tank their burst, and it’s really hard to assassinate a squishy in the backline.

PoskeMar 13, 20181 votes

Heavly depends on a player playing said assassins and the assassin champion itelf

I tend to avoid playing those who have weak target access / weak teamfight ability

Break It DownMar 13, 20181 votes

IMO, CDR and MANA is way 2forced on every item, cdr should be put on utility items not on ERM, Ludens echo 20% CDR, or even worse Archangel's now, Anivia goes 1 item and she is CDR Capped , can u imagine playing against anivia who has almost to no CD or Mana loss at lvl 10? its fun as Zed,Talon, i walk into lane she R's 6 minions and goes back to tower, and than i spend 5-7 seconds clearing everything and losing like 10% hp in the progress, and that's if she decides to back off, usualy they'll come and slap u with 7 autos because no minions to aggro , and throw some free spells at you while at it. (Anivia,Vel'Koz,Oriana, etc) 4 problems in league right now 1:CDR and MANA, not punishable at ALL, this is golden era for mages 2:ADC and Tank items TOO CHEAP, WAY TOO CHEAP. Except maybe , Warmogs. 3:NInja tabi 4: Forced to buy lethality on every ad assassin because nothing else is viable. ( Good old days of Hydra+Bt+Youmus+Bork zed , GLORY DAYS).

And also, since low elo players dont know how to itemize or play against assassins, is why assassins meta will never be back, eventho it was the best for me, since almost every champ could outplay every champ unlike now, where everything is decided by 1 item and the Jungler. Just try make a new account , and just try using ASSASSINS only to get to diamond, i'll laugh at how u'll fail , even if u are Challenger. That's how much they suck RN

PoskeMar 13, 20181 votes

Just try make a new account , and just try using ASSASSINS only to get to diamond, i'll laugh at how u'll fail , even if u are Challenger. That's how much they suck RN

This doesnt make sense since I am assassin player and I one shot entire teams with katarina / Target who is grouped up within 5 members with Le blanc and get out. I main assassins...

As far your item thoughts go

This is not golden era for mages -.- XD. As A mid main since 2009. Just because we can choose 3 diff nomicons doesnt mean we are golden
Whoever has higher gold should be stat checky. Carries are stat checky with lesser gold and level ammounts so yeah their items are cheap
It doesnt matter how cheap tank items are because they are all incredibly subpar. Watch season 1-3 teamfights... they are actually tanky
That was a never a good zed build, 3 lifesteal items rofl. I dont think ad assassin diversity is bad. I dont like current ghostblade tho

mew28Mar 13, 20183 votes

Instakill the adc on each team so everyone else can play a game other then protect the adc.

LordGeovanniMar 14, 20181 votes

This is what everyone wants to do in solo que (and the reason adc 2k16- 2k17 was a thing that got them massive buffs and massive nerfs to everyone else except mages at the same time) but if any team decides to protect the adc rather than go all in to focus the enemy adc they have a much better chance of winning so much that the other plan is unviable.

Devilreaper XIIIMar 12, 20181 votes

i would like them to do no damage and die after being hit once O,O they make for good dummy practice^^

okok for real, they should be dps trap masters with poison/electricity/fire/bleed, instead of burst damage, capable of turning battles and picking off/punishing low health champions and solo roamers.

IfnethMar 12, 20181 votes

So, would Teemo and Nidalee join the ranks of the Assassins?

Devilreaper XIIIMar 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So, would Teemo and Nidalee join the ranks of the Assassins?

they have always been assassins to be honest....

IfnethMar 12, 20181 votes

Thanks for these replies!

It seems like the most-repeated theme has been “100-0,” which seems to mean different things to different players. I want to know what we mean by that. Here are some things I think have been asked for:

Have the numbers on basic abilities, ultimate ability, and perhaps a few basic attacks to deal a little more than 100% of the effective Max Health of a champion who has built no defensive item, when even in gold and experience with that champion.
Be able to deal much, but not all, of that damage quickly, as a ‘burst’ to reliably execute ‘squishy’ champions who are significantly damaged.
Need to take a risk in order to access that burst, or at least the higher end of it, and to access the squishy champion.

Kavren2055Mar 13, 20181 votes

Not be able to penta

They should only get one kill

3TWarriorMar 13, 20181 votes

meh, why not make them an AP version of marksmen, then we could have a talk with Riot about the current system XD

3TWarriorMar 13, 20181 votes

I think that they should be AP-based magic versions of marksmen

this way, we might finally be able to prove that the current system is broken

LordGeovanniMar 13, 20181 votes

I think that assassins should be able to target both Supposedly ranged squishy classes not just one because the other has too much hp and defensive stats and a stasis.

I also think that they shouldnt have as much mobility as they have nor as low cooldown skills as they have. I imagine that assassins like burst mages would have low base damage high scaling damage but both redicilously long cooldowns. I think that assassins when they go in and take out a squishy shouldnt get a free excape after ward and that they should then have to fight their way out with the numbers advantage they secured for their team.

But I dont ever see this implemented with the way damage is currently balanced and with how adcs and mages cry if anything forces them to have to change their build to something more defensive and more importantly that riot listens to it but ingnores that tanks get ripped through in 5 seconds by one champion 3 by 2 and less in front of a full team about 4-2 more seconds for tanks with built in stats (armor) increases.

Riot focuses too much on wanting damage dealers to do everything. Dps, burst, wave clear, sustain, not getting burst, and then sustain tanking, movement speed, Dashes, kiting, soft cc, hard cc, exicutions, max hp damage, missing hp damage. Some of these things are core and the rest you can pick 3-5 extra things.

IfnethMar 13, 20182 votes

I think you’re describing a diver.

Diana XinZhao

All-in, survivable, high damage.

LordGeovanniMar 13, 20181 votes

Nope all in low surviability high burst If divers have to take a hit to burst for that then so be it as long as adc damage massively go down to allow all bruisers to not build 5 (4 item 3071 has most of its value in hp rather than ad and only does damage because of its over tuned passive that also buffs adc damage like they need it) tank items