Riot, may I have a word?

ChaosThief·Dec 19, 2014·19 votes·2,415 views

TL:DR Allow a champion to be built in more ways than one, such as AP compared to the "Traditional" AD.

And by word , I mean can we have SOME variety in building a champion?

From what I see, , Mrs. Queen of the Xer'sai(Is that how it's spelled?) is forced to go bruiser. If she doesn't build defense, dies too quickly. If she builds too much defense, she doesn't do damage. If you're going to say this is an unhealthy thing to have in the game, then I think maybe you want to look at AP , bruiser , and heck, even bruiser . They all are different from what we normally see but can perfectly well work if played correctly.

I would love to have some variety in this form. More champions don't really spice up the game if they follow exactly what top players want, nor do they spice up the game if you rework them but move so slowly that they almost get ignored (cough cough)

Do you mind just giving this some thought, even if you don't take the idea?

58 Comments

DrCyanideDec 19, 201410 votes

I love AP Ezreal.

Ezreal in general is such an interesting champion, because you can build him AP Spell Spammer, Burst Mage, AD Spell Spammer (Blue Build), or normal ADC. So many different items can work, and as such the "right" build is whatever build you feel most comfortable on, not some clear cut generic path.

ChaosThiefDec 20, 20141 votes

I personally prefer AP spell spammer. It's always hilarious in late game to see a guy lose 1/3 of their health to a skill that I can use every 1.4 seconds.

We need more champs like ezreal.

Pvt Yong TaiDec 20, 20144 votes

That used to be the case for a lot of champions, but Riot has shown time and time again that they don't like that and they are hard at work to work in the exact opposite direction from champion build diversity.

Sion , diverse AD/AP champion, reworked

MasterYi , diverse AD/AP champion, reworked

Tryndamere , strong AP burst assassin and heal monger, reworked (to be viable as AD only)

Kayle , extremely flexible AD/AP build, reworked

I don't follow newer champs so well but these were ones I was particularly salty about way back when I invested deeply into the game and the champs I played. Pretty ridiculous how Riot is forcing every champ to follow "the" path that they set for these champions as well as many others that are less pronounced.

ChaosThiefDec 20, 20141 votes

To be kind of frank, most of those play styles were kind of one sided. Against an old AP kayle, she used to be able to kill targets within half a second, trynd would be unkillable( or close enough, correct me if I'm wrong?), yi would have a similar problem as trynd, and sion was stun a guy and take no damage with his burst at the same time.

I meant more along the lines of kits that aren't centered around 2 abilities or a few, more like one who could fit both ways with the same abilities used, which is why I used Ezreal as an example.

Pvt Yong TaiDec 20, 20141 votes

The point is, they didn't even try to keep their diversity. Instead they made it so that only one type was viable (of their choosing).

Though I'm pretty sure my Kayle example fits your criteria. For Ezreal , AD uses Q for damage, W for support or supplemental damage, and E as an escape/engage, and ult for damage. AP uses Q for damage, W for damage, E for damage, and Ult for damage. Kayle used the same skills and fit both ways, AD used Q for slow and armor shred, W for the movement speed, and E for range (though single target), while AP used Q for damage, slow, and MR shred, W for big heals and movement speed and E for damage (AoE).

ChaosThiefDec 21, 20141 votes

If you really compared AD ezreal to AP ezreal, you couldn't really find any similarities other than Q and Ult doing the most damage. AP Ezreal would work as a burst mage, and AD ezreal would be a DPS marksman, as all marksman are.

If I recall correctly, Kayle used to have 1.0 scaling on her Q for AP, and .6 + .75(old lich bane) scaling on her E, resulting in a total of:

1.0 + .6 + .6 +.15 = 2.35x AP in less than half a second. This is similar to Kog'maw in a way. Kog'maw's AP and AD kits both are interconnected, making it harder to nerf one side without the other. For example: Kog's Q is an armor/MR shred, nerfing that hurts both kogs. And since kog deals hybrid damage, they have to nerf the MR effect, hurting AP kog in the process. Similar spot to kayle, who is also a mixed damage DPS, right?

...please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't play kog or kayle, so I may be a bit incorrect.

Pvt Yong TaiDec 21, 20141 votes

Yes she did. Her Q burst was insane with the 1.0 scaling, but going off of "roles", AP Kayle was a burst/AoE mage while AD Kayle was a single target duelist. Very close to the difference between AD and AP Ezreal, so I really can't see where you are finding this discrepancy.

The only difference between AD/AP Ez and AD/AP Kayle is that both AD/AP Kayle basic attack, while AP Ez does not (often).

2pudge1cupDec 20, 20143 votes

It would be nice to see more build flexibility overall, but I don't think that's a realistic thing given how the game is played.

Look at Gangplank Kayle . Both of them have the most build/role flexibility of any champs. Yet they aren't really allowed to see the light of day for terribly long because the barely competent balance team can hardly do their job when champs are slotted. Adding extra variables like other build paths just makes them screw up even more often.

Additionally, laning assignments will pretty much always be 1-1-2+J, again, because slotting things makes balance easier. It makes the game a hell of a lot more boring, and I wish it were different. However, these are realities you kind of have to accept at this point.

VelasanDec 19, 20142 votes

I miss AP kog'maw... a lot. Was one of my absolute favorite champions to build AP. Ever since they decided he was an ADC and is supposed to go pure physical damage he isn't as fun anymore.

When I first started playing him was having a lot of fun maxing his E with an early chalice. They said it was because he was too strong AD wise except they nerfed the stuff that made him powerful as an AP user.

I don't get riot sometimes. I know they try their hardest though.

ChaosThiefDec 20, 20141 votes

Sometimes the kits tie together too much to nerf one without the other. Which sucks for the AP Kog'maw players.

If we could stop pigeon holing every single champion into one role, that would be great, but sadly pro players have to play what "works best".

IlyaK1986Dec 20, 20142 votes

AP Kog is still a beast in ARAM.

stealthfox94Dec 20, 20142 votes

Ap Kog still works, it just sucks early game.

CenturosDec 20, 20141 votes

You men, like Kog in general?

TheKingDodoDec 20, 20142 votes

Rip AP yi... never forget T_T put Katarina to shame

Im so bad yuckDec 20, 20142 votes

There is a reason why Riot doesn't support multiple build paths, even though they will give compensation buffs should some huge nerf to a staple alternate build happens (lich bane ap ratio nerf -> ez Q gets a higher ap ratio etc.). Remember AP Yi (cancer), AP Trynd (cancer), AP Rengar (sonic divebomb), AP Sion (legit 2 shotting), all of them were problematic at some point and it is simply easier to balance a build that has to somehow interact with you (AP Ezreal sucks earlygame and that's the only justification of his game-warping power 30+ minutes in)

I hope AP Rek'sai gets dumpstered, because her bruiser build is simply more delivering to her fantasy of a landshark (and having no cast-time AoE Nida spears coupled with her tremor sense is bullshit).

As for Cassiopeia, Riot pushed her into the direction nobody wanted her to be in... just like Old Karma.

To be honest, if Riot decides to make every champion have a single build path, at least they could preserve the fun parts, and frankly, rightclicking/mashing 1 button to death isn't one of them.

RaptameiDec 21, 20142 votes

[{quoted}](name=Im so bad yuck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GR3uqxbP,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2014-12-20T10:46:01.526+0000)

There is a reason why Riot doesn't support multiple build paths, even though they will give compensation buffs should some huge nerf to a staple alternate build happens (lich bane ap ratio nerf -> ez Q gets a higher ap ratio etc.). Remember AP Yi (cancer), AP Trynd (cancer), AP Rengar (sonic divebomb), AP Sion (legit 2 shotting), all of them were problematic at some point and it is simply easier to balance a build that has to somehow interact with you (AP Ezreal sucks earlygame and that's the only justification of his game-warping power 30+ minutes in)

If AP Yi is cancer...

...rework AP Yi so he isn't cancer anymore.

Don't delete AP Yi because you lack the skill to do so.

SammystormDec 20, 20142 votes

the problem with champions that have only 1 or 2 skills that scale well with their off stat is that if those skills ever become too strong then that off build will be the only way and is usually extremely dominant because it is better then how the champ is suppose to build.

Example: MasterYi Tryndamere Sion RekSai Rengar

Rengar's w was so good that he was dominating games by people spamming a non ultimate skill.

AP trynd was basically unkillable and able to nuke you.

AP Yi was the same as trynd. Unkillable and nuked you (sometimes your whole team) The 4.0 ratio heal was absurd.

AP Sion had the problem of having a shield that scaled really well with ap and then bursted you. Well also having his only cc scaling well with AP and bursting you.

Now champs like teemo or kayle are fine for the most part and shouldn't be touched but building trynd ap was counterintuitive and stupid. Same with the other ones.

StephenizgodDec 19, 20141 votes

Thats like nerfing AD Malzahar simply because his Voidlings get ridiculously powerful and with his already decently high base damage on his spells and high scaling even the smallest amount of AP can go a long way on him. Add his Ult to that and you get a very powerful wombo combo.

hmm wait... maybe i shouldnt have said anything... uuuh NERF IRELIA

But in all seriousness, i doubt people complain that Ap Rek and AD Malz are a real problem, because they have exploitable weakness building this way (not to mention lack of damage until mid-late game). Just because Rek's Q is powerful for just one ability doesn't mean it needs a nerf. So far every Ap Rek ive seen has fed badly until late game where they just sit in the back shooting off Q's, most of the time its actually more annoying not having a 5th person present in teamfights or when taking a turret.

Im sure in the hands of someone good Ap Rek is a monster, but the same can be said about AD Rek (freakin Top lane God) or any champion in the game -_-. Take Lee Sin (everyones favorite champion) with some skill he can do anything at anytime and yet he doesn't get major nerfs.

ChaosThiefDec 20, 20142 votes

AP Rek'sai will get ~~gutted~~ ~~demolished~~ ~~wiped from existance~~ nerfed soon enough.

StephenizgodDec 20, 20141 votes

i know, kinda lame that variety is being nerfed just cause a few people complain.

EvilRabbittDec 20, 20141 votes

I'm so sad. Sniper'sai is so fun. Rito, don't touch plz. Rek is good with ap, dont hurt her.

StephenizgodDec 20, 20141 votes

Lol it sure is funny, but i have yet to see it work in game. Not saying its bad, just saying so far i havent seen a good AP Rek.

EvilRabbittDec 20, 20141 votes

Probably because people play it wrong. You snipe, not gank. So you enter the closest spot to the enemy lane you want to hit from within the enemy jungle. Then you shoot. A lot. Its kind of like psychological warfare- they don't see you, but they don't know if they want to see you. =)

StephenizgodDec 20, 20141 votes

Lol that sounds like fun actually.

EvilRabbittDec 20, 20141 votes

I'm going to cry if they nerf it. The base damage goes up to 180...its not strong enough to get nerfed QQ. If they do, I demand they nerf Annie kit and Blitzcrank Q.... =(

StephenizgodDec 20, 20141 votes

Annie is AP so i doubt they will nerf that, but they should nerf her AA range... she is a mage with like ADC status AA range its actually really annoying.

Blitzcrank's ult is up like every 10 seconds, thats what i think needs a nerf. If assassins cant have silences then Blitz shouldnt have a mass silence high damage ult with a 10 sec cooldown...

NarasimhaDec 20, 20141 votes

Its a .5 second silence. Its essentially a channel cancel, or used to shut off comboes. Also, assassins don't have silences because strong cc with strong damage and high mobility is the issue. Blitz doesn't have those levels of mobility or damage.

StephenizgodDec 20, 20141 votes

You have never fought Ap blitz or bruiser blitz. Pull, Knock-up, Silence is a ton of time you are CC'd unable to do anything, if he is building damage he might as well be an assassin. Not to mention in a normal teamfight getting pulled by Blitz is an insta-kill with only 2 of his 3 CCs. So yeah i think having a mass silence on a 10 second CD is kind of annoying, specially when he builds damage.

NarasimhaDec 20, 20141 votes

I assure you, I've probably faced more of any champion than you have. If he's going AP blitz, his entire combo revolves around his Q. Dodge the hook, and he's basically dead weight. If he went down the bruiser route, its his E thats the issue. In this case, neither his Q or his R are really the problems. Well, getting grabbed by a Blitz hook sucks no matter what, but its not a threat in terms of damage.

And again, its a .5 second silence. Unless you're the target being locked down, its more of an inconvenience then a problem.

StephenizgodDec 21, 20141 votes

Right because Blitz is the only one who can engage and if he misses his hook he is honor-bound to not use his ult, i forgot about that unspoken rule... oh wait... there is no such rule...

You are right if you dodge the hook you are safe from getting pulled, but not safe from him necessarily... If you engage in a teamfight you are within range of his abilities (see not everyone is ranged, those guys that are melee need to be in melee range) so you are kinda still at risk of his abilities, unless of course he is terrible. Its annoying for him to being able to use his ult so often when it can silence so many people.

BTW 0.5 seconds on 2-3 people is a huge advantage in a teamfight, so while hitting 1 person isnt much, hitting multiple people can have huge impacts...

P.S. I didnt say Blitz was OP, just annoying and if they were going to nerf something on Blitz (like if i had to choose one thing) i would say its his ults low CD that i would change. Its not the silence or the range or the damage that gets me, its how often he can use it. But hey thank you for you telling me im wrong for no reason.

ChaosThiefDec 20, 20141 votes

I believe that's the problem in riot's eyes. AP nidalee pre-rework did a similar thing and was deemed toxic, so I'm pretty sure Rek'sai will receive similar treatment.

NarasimhaDec 20, 20141 votes

Yeah, its already in the works. Kind of needed, honestly. Its like pre-work Nida with AOE. And manaless.

WheatloafDec 20, 20141 votes

How is AD Malzahar with the Preseason changes out? I feel like the Elixir of Ruin could be ridiculous on him.

StephenizgodDec 20, 20141 votes

I actually dont know, i was never a big fan of AD malz but i acknowledge its viability. I imagine Elixir of Ruin would be really funny although im not sure whether it effects his Voidlings or not.

WheatloafDec 20, 20141 votes

It affects his damage to turrets, and Voidling damage counts as coming from him, so yeah, it would be pretty ridiculous. Late game, turrets would live for only a few seconds in the face of his onslaught.

StephenizgodDec 20, 20141 votes

Lol even as AP malz they barely stand for more then a few seconds, i can only imagine the destruction this will cause. I should try this out one of these times.

WheatloafDec 20, 20141 votes

I have to warn you, if you're going for it, that it's a much slower ramp-up than AP Malz. You'll probably want to play relatively passive until you get your core items: Manamune, CDR Boots (unfortunately no longer with captain, RIP 500+ movespeed Voidlings), and a brutalizer.

You should have seen it during URF Mode.

StephenizgodDec 20, 20141 votes

Yea ive tried it a few times before, thats part of the reason im not a fan of it too long to get stronk.

Never played URF mode.

TehNACHODec 20, 20141 votes

Isn't Bruiser Blitzcrank was the original intention?

(I've been told by players that played League from the really old days that Tanky AP (AP Bruiser?) Blitz was the original intention behind his itemization)

NarasimhaDec 20, 20141 votes

Thats... still kind of what he builds. He either goes bruiser or full tank, with full ap being the rare one.

TehNACHODec 20, 20141 votes

Exactly.

This post is going on and on about building champions alternative ways, and then he mentions Bruiser Blitzcrank as if it's some off meta build that just happens to work.

My post is pointing out that Bruiser Blitzcrank is not an alternative build, that's how he's actually supposed to function.

NarasimhaDec 20, 20141 votes

Ah, gotcha. In that case, I SUSPECT OP meant something along the line of 'top lane' Blitzcrank , rather than just 'bruiser'. And that fails for completely different reasons.

ChaosThiefDec 21, 20141 votes

Late reply: I joined league around the time Fiora got released, which I believe is long after blitz. All I ever saw was blitzcrank as a support, I had no idea that this was a thing, which is why I listed it here.

thePandevDec 20, 20141 votes

Look at it from a different point of view: Ezreal was BUILT to be an ADC. Look at his passive. I don't see how it complements his AP form in anyway. Plus, there are obvious downsides. AP Ez has no wave clear. I'd say that his W would most likely be changed to do damage to minions, in your scenario, to make him semi-viable. That would mutually buff AD Ezreal, a form of Ezreal which doesn't need buffing. Same with his E. Designed for an ADC.

What I said might not make much sense, but let me put it to you this way.

Some of these champions work like scales. For example, AD Ezreal might be on verge of becoming OP, and AP form might be underpowered. To add to the viability of his AP side, you'd need to make sure the change:

A.) Doesn't affect AD Ezreal, and B.) Doesn't make AP Ez too OP

Riot has proved they can't balance some champions, even with one possible route those champions can take. Ex.) Vayne (ADC AD). What makes you think Riot can balance both parts of a champion equally? It's essentially dealing with two different champs.

ChaosThiefDec 21, 20142 votes

Well, I can kind of agree on the passive thing, but from another point of view:

His passive, although not completely used, can be used for turret pushing and last hitting. Effective Q landing allows the passive to be kept.

His E is not really designed for an ADC, it's more designed for any role. An escape is useful to everyone, whether they be a marksman or a mage.

AP ezreal and AD ezreal are so disjointed from each other that nerfing one doesn't impact the other in a negative way(for the most part.) Nerfing the AP ratio on his Q will only slighty reduce his damage from sheen's or triforce's AP, while reducing the AD ratio on his ultimate is an effective way to weaken AD ezreal with no effect to AP ezreal.

It's quite difficult to have the kits so disconnected from each other that nerfing one has minimal effect on the other. Making one side of ezreal OP isn't too bad either, since it's all about skill on both sides, considering ez is all skill shots. If they made some champions with disconnected scalings and damage, meaning even if you build one type of build, you won't be doing considerable amounts of damage in the other(Kog'maw is a great example here: He deals physical from autos and magical from his abilities, including his W's auto modifier, when built AD.)

It's very difficult to be done ,but definitely possible. If riot put some effort into creating a champion with disconnected scalings like ezreal(I guess I'll call them disconnected scalings.), I'm sure it could be done.

PentaJumpDec 21, 20141 votes

I miss my AP Trist.

But, seriously -- what they did to Warwick was pretty saddening. Before this pre-season he could be played jungle, top, and sometimes even mid. Some people opted to build him to nuke people, some built him ap, and some built him super tanky. Now he can only jungle, and there's only one build.

TerffDec 21, 20141 votes

Cuz the preseason changes forced nerfs on him to make him not OP thus reducing his options

OJ191Dec 21, 20141 votes

That moment when AP Ezreal was actually the original build, 99.99% of people just somehow decided it was garbage after his heal was deleted.

if they delete AP Ezreal I will almost certainly quit this game for good

ChaosThiefDec 21, 20141 votes

Unless the champion spotlight was changed after a while, it does mention building him marksman above all else.

... I decided to google the heal thing. THAT LOOKS LIKE ABSOLUTE HELL TO DEAL WITH. If he was AP, he would already be doing plenty of damage, then add that heal into it all and it just makes ezreal look like the perfect champ to play as a support poke AP whatever-it-should-be-called.

If I was playing when they had that heal , I would've surely hated it being removed. It did seem a little bit broken though, and a bit akward...

For now, AP ezreal remains, so please, grab a chair, stay a while good friend! We have many seats for those who play from the old!

OJ191Dec 21, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Unless the champion spotlight was changed after a while, it does mention building him marksman above all else.

... I decided to google the heal thing. THAT LOOKS LIKE ABSOLUTE HELL TO DEAL WITH. If he was AP, he would already be doing plenty of damage, then add that heal into it all and it just makes ezreal look like the perfect champ to play as a support poke AP whatever-it-should-be-called.

If I was playing when they had that heal , I would've surely hated it being removed. It did seem a little bit broken though, and a bit akward...

For now, AP ezreal remains, so please, grab a chair, stay a while good friend! We have many seats for those who play from the old!

I wasn't around for it myself, I've just been told on several occasions that AP Ezreal was his original mainstream build.

DO note that Ezreal was released 03/16/2010 while his champion spotlight was released 06/29/2012. At a guess, he probably lost the heal and transitioned to being played mainstream as an ADC before the spotlight was even created, 2 years 3 months is a loooong time.

edit: it looks like his heal was gone by 07/27/2010 "Fixed a discrepancy in Essence Flux's level-up tooltip that incorrectly mentioned a heal"

http://www.lol-patch.com/ezreal.html