@Riot: Before you rework Urgot, please look at Cassiopeia as an example.

ChaosThief·Nov 4, 2014·51 votes·10,318 views

When I say this, I really mean one thing: Don't try to stuff all of their power into one area(Cass's E) then weaken her ratios to nothing(Every spell cass has besides E(late game) and R,the penalty) and then try to give her a strength which is almost meaningless because of said penalty(Her passive.)

Make sure that Urgot's abilities aren't just... there. Make them useful on their own, not as something on the side for acid hunter. My bet is that most of urgot's power is going to be dumped into his acid hunter, and then everything else becomes pretty worthless, similar to cassiopeia.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't really play urgot OR cassiopeia. I'm just throwing what I can see, and know, out there. Whenever you rework a champion, don't attempt to center everything around one ability, unless it ABSOLUTELY HAS TO. Just throwing my two cents out there.

This was not intended to be a rage thread, just saying that maybe, just maybe, you should look into what the players have to say a bit more before you even BEGIN to rework someone.

72 Comments

PhoenixSlayer13Nov 4, 201428 votes

Let's be honest... most of Urgot's power is in Acid Hunter already. E does negligible damage, and both W and R are utility spells.

If you're not landing Q's as Urgot, you're not really doing anything.

Remlap1223Nov 4, 20145 votes

So what you're saying is... Urgot has already been reworked?

PhoenixSlayer13Nov 4, 20141 votes

I'd argue that he still needs a rework.

Don't get me wrong, I do actually like playing Urgot. But Acid Hunter spam is pretty much the ONLY thing he has that's actually powerful. His ult's use cases are just... weird.

I still think that Acid Hunter should be important, but Urgot should be powerful in other ways as well.

Remlap1223Nov 4, 20141 votes

A joke friend, but honestly, he does have the identity of a tanky poke marksman. Unfortunately, that's his only identity. He's got nothing of value outside of his acid hunters because his range, shield, and ultimate are just silly. I think if we gave him an unbroken passive, and an ultimate that actually makes sense for a poke heavy champion, Urgot will be in an ok place. Now we just have to buff his AA range, because now it's lower than a champion that has a melee weapon Thresh .

BmlboYJpODNov 4, 20144 votes

Same could be said about Cassio before & after the rework.

If you aren't landing Q (or W but it has a high CD early game) then you cannot really use E until they are back off CD (or if you don't time correctly & use E right after the poison let's up on an enemy).

I know Riot knows this is a problem for both of these champs & will get around to fixing them.

They already stated they have stuff they are throwing into PBE right now to help Cassio out in this regard.

On a side-note though, this is what separates the good Cassio/Urgot players from the bad

RiotMorelloNov 5, 201413 votes

Definitely not new to the rework, though I think the identity feels worse (and incoming Cass changes to resolve - we think it's important to follow-up on this stuff!)

Urgot will be...really different. I think the lock-on thing is cool if we can maintain it, but I have a feeling he won't have three different roles at the same time. That makes him usually bad at all of them :P

NarasimhaNov 5, 20142 votes

Hey Morello, while you're here, can you clarify, what was Urgot's original intended role? Was he meant to be an ADC, or a ranged bruiser, or something else entirely?

RiotMorelloNov 5, 201414 votes

No idea - I don't think we'd even considered it with him (Urgot's development was.....interesting). It was before I started so I don't have personal experience.

SiachiNov 5, 20148 votes

Well now that you've called it 'interesting', you've gotten us curious as to why his development was interesting.

PhoenixSlayer13Nov 5, 20143 votes

You've piqued my interest in hearing this interesting story. It'd be cool to see what you did then compared to what you would do now.

ThatAutofillSuppNov 5, 20142 votes

why did i imagine you with a mustache stroking it while you said "…..intresting"

DecritNov 5, 20142 votes

DRUNK SIENCE! no really now i am very curious too :D the early developement stages were wild i guess! Like " i got this pg from D&D, let' s make him a champ!"

TiropatNov 5, 20145 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bQtJZW1x08

that is the 4 year old urgot spotlight

It is also worth noting that they were releasing a champ every 2 weeks at that point in time so they had some really stupid kits make it through.

BmlboYJpODNov 5, 20141 votes

He was considered a skirmisher (his old Champion profile even gave him this title, the only champion with it) & was supposed to be really strong in 1v1s or taking out a specific person in teamfights.

He had a little bit of everything so by today's standards he could be an ADC bruiser displacer (if that makes sense).

When they created champions that far back, they didn't go in with the mindset of a specific role.

PtarlorrNov 5, 20141 votes

I certainly hope you'll keep the general design intact so he gets more of a Karthus-level fidelity update instead of the total Sion overhaul.

Can't wait to see what kit you come up with for him. All your new kits seem really thought-out and coherent (except Cass)

BmlboYJpODNov 5, 20141 votes

Karthus had no changes to his kit, just a visual update.

They WILL be changing Urgot's kit.

PtarlorrNov 5, 20142 votes

Sorry, going by design, I'd like Urgot's appearance to be enhanced, like Karthus was, as opposed to a total facelift with some dramatic cosmetic changes, like Sion.

I know they'll change the kit, and I'm excited to see what they come up with.

BmlboYJpODNov 5, 20141 votes

Oh yeah definitely but Urgot still looks decent by today's standards so they won't have reason for a complete overhaul.

Sion's visuals was so dated & cartoonish that he really did need a complete facelift which I think is much better than before.

PtarlorrNov 5, 20142 votes

Yeah, the new Sion looks boss.

Teridax68Nov 4, 201410 votes

Urgot 's overdependence on his combo is actually one of his biggest problems right now, which Riot also admitted to: landing his E means he can Q spam his opponent away from the minion waves, and missing it means he can't really do much until it comes off cooldown. I also think Sion or Karma 's remakes would be more appropriate models for comparison than Cassiopeia 's gameplay update: Urgot's kit, gameplay identity and role are all fairly confused, and he needs a complete overhaul, not just rebalances to his abilities.

doubleguacNov 4, 20141 votes

I don't think his role is very confused aside from his ult. He's a ranged, sustained damage bruiser, and his passive, Q, W, and E all make sense within that niche. His shield gives him substantial staying power in fights, and his Q has a very low CD, rewarding him with high sustained damage for as long as he can stay alive and in range. He has some team utility with a powerful slow, his passive, and his AoE armor shred. Aside from his ult, his kit makes a lot of sense in my opinion. It just seriously lacks counterplay when Urgot his ahead.

I think there are two main problems with urgot: -his ult makes no sense with his kit. It has some incredibly niche uses, but in many team fights, its actually detrimental to Urgot for him to use his ultimate. -his numbers have seen nerf after nerf due to his ability to completely oppressive a lane when he is ahead.

The first problem is pretty straightforward--Riot needs to scrap his ult and give him one that's useful. His current ult could be cool on a tank, but it doesn't work on a ranged bruiser who needs to build substantial offense to stay relevant.

The second problem runs deeper, and is intrinsic to the synergy between his W, E, and Q. Riot is probably either going to have to seriously tweak Urgot's E-Q combo, or tweak the slow on his W. A lot of people seem to forget that Urgot hasn't always been bad. He was pick or ban in competitive play until huge number nerfs were dumped on him. As long as Urgot is able to massively slow targets with his Q, and spam his Q from long range after landing his E, he's not allowed to be strong.

Auz the RipperNov 4, 20142 votes

The E+Q combo doesn't need to be changed a whole lot, it just needs to be gated in some way early game like with an ammo system Say:

Acid hunter Mana cost: 20/25/30/35/40 Cooldown: 1 second Urgot fires one of his acid hunters, dealing X damage to the first enemy unit it hits. Acid hunters will home in on targets afflicted with Noxian corrosive charge near the curser. Urgot gains 1 Acid hunter every X seconds and can hold up to 1/2/3/4/5 Acid hunters.

Then maybe tack a passive on to his ultimate that allows him to hold an extra 1/2/3 acid hunters

Early game he becomes a lot less opressive and late game he becomes a lot more effective, normalizing his curve to healthier levels

The WhamboozlerNov 4, 20147 votes

As someone who likes to play Urgot for the mad hipster cred, I live in fear of this rework. As a former player of both Skarner and Cass, they've burned me twice already. I'm terrified they're going to gut a champ I like playing and paste him back together as something generic, bland and no less underpowered than he was before. Right now, Urgot's primary identity as a champ to me is the guy who makes the enemy say "What in the heck is that?! How do I play against that?!". His weird kit, odd playstyle and dead sexy appearance all make him the shambling thing that throws you off at every turn. He's deceptively strong 1v1, and he's great at just messing with people. Think he's low enough to kill him? Shield. Think you're escaping? Ult. Think he can't reach you with his shots? E to lock them on. Think you out-damage him? His passive disagrees. Urgot's main strength to me (In fact one of his ONLY strengths, really) is that a lot of people just don't know how to deal with him. Partially because he's underplayed, partially because his abilities are great at screwing with people who think they can easily abuse the fat, ugly crippled thing with the wheezing laugh.

I'm afraid they're going to change all of that in the interest of "improving" him, while keeping his kit's weaknesses. They'll strip the "hidden power" of his Armor and Damage debuffs. They'll change his ult entirely or force him into being entirely a bot lane marksman or top lane fighter role, rather than a half-bruiser-half-marksman anti-carry that can go nearly anywhere. They'll see him and say "his kit is about locking on and spamming Q" and not look into it any deeper because they don't play him. Urgot is about messing with his opponent's mind. He seems weak, but he can be strong. He looks like a fat, crippled, broken husk, but he'll murder you. Don't take that away from him Rito. Pls.

GavranNov 5, 20141 votes

Urgot's main strength to me (In fact one of his ONLY strengths, really) is that a lot of people just don't know how to deal with him.

Do you not see why that means he needs a rework very badly?

ShurleNov 4, 20147 votes

Whats an Urgot?

PtarlorrNov 5, 20141 votes

A fat, sad zombie that could use a good pair of legs. He can't even laugh right. With your help, we can end this suffering and give all undead Noxians proper care.

KingsgraveNov 4, 20146 votes

tldr dont turn cass into an urgot

RiotVeshNov 6, 20145 votes

When we do Urgot, the changes will likely be pretty large. I wouldn't worry about his pattern right now, because it will probably change a decent amount (although I agree with Morello that some form of "lock on" will be an important thing to keep, but I'd rather turn the cool factor to an 11 instead of just making it powerful).

PickleBabahNov 4, 20144 votes

Urgot currently is fine IMO. He doesn't make flashy plays but he can really unleash a can of ass-whooping while still being able to be countered.

soh1gh2Nov 4, 20143 votes

urgot is fine leave my fat mang alone u dont even play urgot stop making urgot rework threads

ChaosThiefNov 4, 201411 votes

Ok so umm... I'm guessing you're joking. But if not... 1: Urgot is already planned for a rework. It's gonna happen. 2: This is my first time even mentioning any rework, let alone an urgot one. I'm just saying to learn from a few mistakes made. 3: I can't take you very seriously with how you wrote that message, I'm guessing that was intentional.

TyrezNov 4, 20143 votes

I've played urgot a bit and I think the reason he is never played is because he doesn't really fit in anywhere in a team. He is good by himself but in teamfights its hard to single out a target without getting beat up yourself. Acid hunter is only really effective if you have corrosive charge on the enemy, otherwise acid hunter will just hit creeps or tankier targets. He might also get a lot of damage from manamune but once you are out of mana he does not do much. He is also ugly and fat.

Auz the RipperNov 4, 201412 votes

That last bit was uncalled for

HE IS A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE!

FinnicalNov 5, 20141 votes

Agreed, he doesn't have a role on a team. He can absolutely dominate a lane, jungle urgot can work too, but once laning is over you are screwed. You cannot deal enough damage to be worth it as a ranged carry, you cannot tank enough damage to be worth it as an initiator. Best case you go the bruiser/fighter route and hope the enemy doesn't focus you down too quickly. If he had more disruption in his kit he could fill this role much better, more tanky-ness and less damage would probably help as well. He could certainly be an awesome lane bully with light harass and strong initiation, like Maokai.

Oh, and I actually like the way he looks! He is intended to be gross to look at, he's the amalgamated zombie robot.

doubleguacNov 4, 20143 votes

In my opinion, all Urgot really needs is a new ult. The rest of his kit is already strong, and synergizes well with itself. His passive and W make him surprisingly hard to kill in a duel, his Q is super fun to use and has high sustained damage over a long fight, and his E creates opportunities for long range poke, as well as shredding armor. All these abilities are fun and work pretty well with Urgot's unique ranged bruiser niche.

The problem is his ult. The bonus MR and armor is good in duels, and the ability can be used to lock down a target for a few seconds during a gank or a chase. But overall, outside the laning phase, it's at best absurdly niche, and at worst self-destructive. The ability just makes no sense on his kit. He's a ranged, sustained damage bruiser with good kiting potential. His ult stuns him, then, in most cases, teleports him into the middle of the enemy team, where, even with a relatively tanky build, he's going to get torn apart before doing much. He totally lacks mobility, and has low base MS, which usually prevents him from actually ulting any high priority back liners, and also leaves him unable to re-position after teleporting.

I imagine Urgot's passive will also end up getting reworked. It's pretty strong, and feels thematic, but it's also pure invisible power that in no way effects how Urgot plays, or influences his decision making, so Riot will probably end up changing it. I just hope Riot doesn't mess with his Q, W, and E too much. Though, given recent balancing decisions, I also wouldn't be surprised if his W's perma-slow got in some way weakened.

ExiledTyrantNov 6, 20143 votes

Urgot came out in a time where there was actual transition from one role to the next. Urgot was known as a notorious mid lane bully with severe drop off towards the late game. Because of this transition he would go from dps to tank to stay useful to his team. This was back when selling half your core to remodel your champion was still kind of a thing. Now with every champion so optimized to perform a role and the countless item revision Urgot was left with an extremely inefficient design.

Only during season two during the ARP debacle did Urgot get a modern day push into being somewhat viable. Any champion that had Urgot's kit with all ARP nonsense going around was going to be strong specially with .5 ratio buffs taking his main damage source into the 1.2 range on a 1.7 sec CD attack. Instead of nerfing the items and runes that were the problem Urgot was once again nerfed out of what was proper scaling at the time. Then later the items and runes he crutched on got nerfed anyway with no compensation.

After all these changes Urgot's main weaknesses still remain in Poor Physical caster itemization options, and inability to stop health stacking. Over the years this has always been his major flaws but they got exponentially worse as time went by due to stronger champion releases, item revamps, rune revamps, masteries etc.

Item wise Urgot has little to no way of building sustain, he has to choose between proper cdr for his skills or actual damage, he has no on hit options, can't use critical hit or attack speed, and defense is usually either all in or none at all. His kit demands to many stats and no real itemization to pull from to get it. CDR items sacrifice his damage but he needs it. Being unable to critical means he needs a lot of raw damage to do anything late game.You could point to dozens of items that were nerfed or taken away that dealt major blows to any attempt for Urgot to adapt.

Health stacking being his other vice is actually simple once you see his itemization problem. Urgot can bypass all the armor he wants but it won't matter if the tank stacks health with his mitigation. There's to much of a break in his damage output to keep up with a wall of health because his hp shred options are nonexistent.

Personally I would like to see Urgot with remade as a mid range tank who specializes in disruption and counter initiation. There's a pocket for him right behind the melee line but in front of the ranged ADC line that I don't see enough champions fill. He should be easier to get items for in that role. An Ult that adds flat damage to a target and makes all skill shot become point and click would also be pretty neat.

XemeronNov 4, 20142 votes

Look at Soraka. Dont ruin a champion.

TheNarwhalLordNov 4, 20144 votes

Omg Thank you. I feel they ruined EVERYTHING Unique about Soraka. She had one flaw that made he unique as a support. No CC (Except silence), but she had another unique thing. She could give mana back. I was actually quite disappointed when they changed her like that. (Clarity no the same :c) item 3070 summoner 13

kunkudunkNov 4, 20142 votes

Her giving mana was not only not core to her identity as a healer, it gave her power where she didn't need it as it effectively made it so her laner never had to back as they always had health and mana. You couldn't poke them down and then all in as they would always be full and you couldn't wait for them to go oom and then all in as it simply never happened. The soraka rework really isn't that bad, it is just very emo and kinda doesn't fit the feel of her character. I guess they could argue that she is giving her life as repayment for what she did or something idk. But regardless her rework is actually a step in the right direction.

OrbvNov 4, 20143 votes

If they are basing it at all off of her lore, she lost her connection to the stars when she tried to use her abilities for defense. So it makes sense that she dies a little inside when she heals.

JamnonNov 5, 20142 votes

I die a little inside everytime she heals.

AmightyTNov 5, 20142 votes

She does too

JamnonNov 5, 20141 votes

This.

ThatAutofillSuppNov 5, 20142 votes

we all die together :D

MrSlowDieNov 5, 20142 votes

they will probably keep urgot E+Q combo, since I saw lot of urgot players said (in urgot rework thread) his combo is what defines him. Assuming riot don't want urgot to be skarnered or cassed, they'll keep the combo

ExiledTyrantNov 8, 20141 votes

The thing that really gets me about that though is the combo became a lot more bland after ranges were fixes and visual bugs were taken out. Urgot wound up losing something like 200 range on lock on Q and 50 splash radius on his E. The combo lost it's ability to push 4 missles a cdr cap or land E reliably because the splash is smaller ( always felt like it suffers from more wind up now too). Granted visual bugs are fun to play against but it wound up really hurting Urgots lane game much like how Morde losing the invisble range on his E made it harder to pressure people.

I think the lock on can still be inserted somewhere to keep the thematic flavor without keeping him so binary.

TenSlashTenNov 4, 20141 votes

riot doesn't know how to rework. Theres never been a good rework. Its just how it is. No one likes change that isn't specifically asked for. We want a rework. But riot doesn't want to be open with exact details exact changes and exact anything. THerefor no one wants the rework. But we still want the rework for the sake of hoping they finally do it right and stop gutting to buff later.

BmlboYJpODNov 4, 20146 votes

Nid rework was great & needed since she was a bit OP while being played AP.

Karma rework went well since she had such a low pick rate & was easily countered. My only complaint is that i wish they would've allowed you to use her Tether to heal teammates, not just damage & snare an enemy.

Heimer rework was amazing & what he needed. I haven't heard one bad thing about it (which is odd seeing how many people play this game).

Sion rework was needed because his kit was all over the place & he was wonky. People are still getting used to him but I have a feeling he is going to pop up all of a sudden in popularity when people master his mechanics.

I never played Skarner so I cannot speak for him but judging off what I've seen from before & after players, I feel he is in a better place now. It's easier for him to stick to people with his long range slow plus his new passive which allows you to stun (note: Skarner's changes weren't really a full rework either, maybe they have more for him coming).

Love the Soraka rework & it needed to happen. They had to hard nerf her Q's damage because of how strong that 1 ability (plus her single target non-skillshot silence) was when she was in a solo lane however it affected her support role hard as well. She now has the best of both worlds (AOE silence with a built in snare, a new passive while keeping the identity of her old passive).

I'm sure there are other reworks I'm missing but they generally do well.

I mean.. they are the ones that created these champions to begin with.. have some faith.

MathbalnaseNov 5, 20141 votes

Heimer rework was amazing & what he needed. I haven't heard one bad thing about it (which is odd seeing how many people play this game).

I'll fix that for you.

The Heim rework was a move in the right direction, but didn't get the job done.

He's still almost useless late-game against competent opponents (who know to either engage outside his nest or to destroy it), with his turrets having crappy defensive scaling.

His turrets should have been given a portion of his defensive stats. (instead of gaining hp from his ap) OR They should have been given ward-like / zyra-plant-like health.

I've also seen numerous threads (mostly on the old forums) complaining that he's still horribly win/lose-at-champ-select in many match-ups (mostly melee champs with poor or no gap closers and poor or no poke, like garen).

BmlboYJpODNov 5, 20141 votes

All champions have match-ups they do really well against & some they are completely shutdown by.

That is how it works.

If anything, Heimer is the strongest late game.

You shouldn't be building a nest unless you know they don't have vision of that area (setting 3 turrets on top of each other & catching someone with a grenade as they facecheck a bush).. if you are doing it in the open.. then you deserve your turrets to be destroyed quickly.

Generally you should keep at least 2 stacks for after the fights start to drop them unnoticed near them.

He has 100-0 capabilities with his missles upgraded, can catch half an enemy team out with his grenades upgraded, & can turn the fights around & provide sustained damage with his turret upgraded.

He also excels at siege tactics & taking objectives.

He is the only champion I consider Banner of Command a core item on since you can use it's active on a siege minion near an enemy tower.. once that tower focuses the upgraded minion.. then drop your upgraded turret to quickly take out a tower.