Why are summoner spells level locked?

Worst Kench NA··92 votes·5,654 views

I don't understand the rationale behind this. I understand that the really early levels should just be about getting the basics of the game down which I'd argue most people should be able to do by levels 3-4 anyways. But if someone wanted to practice jungling, a role that I consider the absolute hardest in the game to do right, if they wanted to practice that role as early as they could, they can't really do that because you can't use smite until level 10. Never mind the fast that flash is, except for a select few champions, an essential spell that is also locked until later.

Why is this still a thing?

60 Comments

Lapis24 votes

The official reason is they don't want to overload people with things that will just confuse them while they're learning the game. But yeah, its stupid.

darknuke5 votes

It's not at all stupid. Trust me. As a game designer who's made the mistake of giving everything to the player, because that's what was asked for, you guys can't handle the overload :P. Soooooo many comments came after about being overwhelmed with options. When we eventually changed the game into a progression system, all those complaints went away overnight.

rtbf761092713 votes

Ya the progression system is pretty necessary to coddle the infant brains of players. The ideal rate of that progression seems very hard to hit. Maybe league does it too slowly

ForeverLaxx1 votes

Stop making games for idiot masses and that problem goes away overnight, too.

darknuke1 votes

Yeah, let's make a game for the ultra hardcore niche and not make any money... Smart.

ForeverLaxx1 votes

Worked for Dark Souls. I guess you're more interested in contributing to the decline of gaming as a genre to usher in another crash.

darknuke1 votes

Sorry, but if you don't think Dark Souls has a progression system, then I don't believe you worked on the game. Or you're just not a game designer and therefore have no clue what you're talking about.

Is it hard as nails? Yes. Does it throw EVERY mechanic at you at once, from the moment you step foot into the game? No. You earn things as you progress. Hidden progression and overt progression are still progression.

The mere fact that they have New Game+, which enables you to start a new game WITH everything at once, is exactly why you're wrong.

ForeverLaxx2 votes

You mean the mechanic of "dodge/block these attacks, and probably die anyway"? Yeah, it actually does. The only thing it does early to help players survive long enough to want to continue playing is that enemy HP and Damage numbers are lower in the beginning. They'll be employing cheap tactics against you the entire way because it's important to know early on that the game isn't going to play fair.

NG+ is for people who want to acquire all the items in the game or play the entire game with what would otherwise be a late-game weapon. Believing that's "progression" is folly.

I feel like your "game design" topped out at a "choose your adventure" Flash games.

darknuke1 votes

Lmao. You've got a lot to learn bud...

ForeverLaxx1 votes

Says the guy that believes tinkering around in RPG Maker makes him a "game designer."

darknuke1 votes

I honestly don't understand why you all doubt this. By doubting and challenging me, you're also challenging Riot's game designers themselves. We have the same stance. Are you really all so arrogant that, despite an obvious lack of qualifications to make your opinions justified, you still think you're smarter than a multi-billion dollar company's judgement?

Sure, you can shit on me all you want. I slightly expected that coming in here with an unpopular response. Most forum communities hate opinions that don't match their own. I honestly don't care. All I was trying to do was offer some incite from my own professional indie development perspective and you guys all shit on it like you're a bunch of seasoned veterans yourself. Maybe live in the industry for a few years, as a game designer, and you'll understand why we make these decisions. Until then, none of what you guys say holds any weight. It's your singular opinion vs. the stance of real professional game designers.

Nick Da Chip1 votes

I really wanted to type out how silly you sound and how far away from a game designer you come across but I'm sure you wouldn't take it into consideration or even comprehend the words I type out. In fact if you have made it this far in my response I congratulate you for exceeding all my expectations.

rtbf2256182411 votes

Then just highlight them for beginners in order of difficulty to use..not remove them.

BLACK REALM GOD7 votes

they have spells locked because it's part of the player progression system. essentially it's just extra things to look forward to unlocking for newer players. runes masteries spells, ranked. it's all just part of the player progression system.

Nickssaa7 votes

I hate this argument, because this basically makes Lol a PC game that works like a mobile game like Clash Royale. Lets be honest, if your game is being compared to Clash Royale... YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.

CatSith7 votes

It isn't an argument? its the fact.

50000000000000001 votes

I mean, it's kinda both. That is the reason why we have this system, but it's also a bad reason to keep it if we were to argue for making all summs available at level 1.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

Clash royale is lit, though. Lol.

Whut Thuh 1 votes

this is different, as a person who plays clash regularly, (cringe, i know) but clash gives you everything you need to succsede almost right away, introducing almost all the mechanics in the game in the first arena, and puts you with people that have the exact same things, whereas in low leval blind pick, you can get people with full runepages and flash, a huge crutch for playmaking, whereas you might only have accsess to ghost and heal.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

all games need something to work towards. even minecraft would be dull if there wasnt something to work towards.

mobile games lack content due to how small their games have to be so they lock most of it behind a pay wall or infinite timer scheme. that helps keep the game exciting and new for the players who actually care.

arena games - which is what league is - have to have a competitive nature and therefore has to allow every player access to the same equipment in order to be truly competitive.

arena games however suffer from burnout. so to remedy that players have to grind through a series of trials until they've reach max level to play the competitive version of the game. the rest of the time it's literally just grinding. constant non-stop grinding.

but grinding sucks so to make a player feel like they're accomplishing something they lock all of the features at the start and you unlock them 1 by 1 up until you've unlocked enough to play ranked.

that's the truth of the matter. all arena games are guilty of it because companies are just copy pasting old ideas instead of thinking up new ones. (looking at you call of duty, battlefield, halo, gears of war, league of legends, literally every game made by ubisoft EA and activision)

they're just copy pasting the success from games like world of warcraft and everquest since those used to be really successful online games.


*edit *

oh and dont forget league is free to play so they have to have something to charge people for, but to keep their game truly competitive it needs to still be accessible by those who grind.

Nickssaa1 votes

I get your point, my problem though is that the reward for playing in a competitive multiplayer game is the sense of improvement. If you play soccer(or football) because you want to get a gold trophy, you're playing it for the wrong reason. You should be playing soccer (or football) to get better at it, and have fun while you do so, and you get the gold trophy as a bonus reward for your dedication. If you play ranked Lol, you should be playing it to become a better player, and you should use the ranks to show how far you've come. If you are playing ranked for the end of season rewards, you are playing it for the wrong reason.

Now what does this have to do with level grinding? League should be a game of skill. Taking away the power from the player because their account isnt a high enough level is bullshit. The leveling system is meant to give the player an environment of having the player learn the game, but it shouldn't limit them. I shouldn't have to wait until level 18 to get a keystone mastery because I should learn the game with the idea of keystones in mind from the beginning, not when I'm level 18. Not to mention, matchmaking doesn't match people by level, so some players have an advantage over others for having a higher level.

Let's take a game that doesn't do this, such as Dota 2. In Dota 2, the first game you play, is the exact same as what the pros would play (except hero select unless you play cm on you first match for whatever reason). As a result, the game doesn't hide anything from a new player, and everything that they will use and see is right there in front of them. The game tries to teach the player how to use them with tutorials, but it doesn't lock anything away from them, giving them everything they need to know in front of them. This IMO is better than the league system, because it doesn't limit the way you learn the game. You learn through practice, and finding out which hero you enjoy the most through demo hero, instead of what the game tells you to learn. Heck, in Lol, you don't have access to sandbox mode until level 10.

I've heard the argument of "burden of knowledge" thrown around the community and Riot often, and while yes, it can apply, it is a very bullshit argument it is just a step of mastering the game, and depending on the skill rating, you may want to focus on certain parts of the game. For instance, a bronze player might need to focus on laning and getting last hits, but shouldn't really worry about tp ganks and optomizing xp gain, whilst a diamond player who should know how to last hit properly might want to focus on maximizing map movement and learning micro specific tricks like tp ganking, rotations, and effective uses of poking.

**TL:DR ** Lol shouldn't limit the game to new players as it is detrimental to the learning process of a player as it discourages self-learning and restricts the player on how they improve.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

1 : you pay to play videogames. even f2p video games have some form of pay or donation feature. this isnt the olympics. it's a paid service. there is no sense of accomplishment to be earned just the same as there's no sense of accomplishment from watching an entire season of your favorite tv series.

2 : that's not how videogames work.

3 : dota 2 isn't league. they use different systems to achieve different goals

4 : dota 2 came after league of legends and uses a newer system. league has had to update theirs.

5 : this game is overly complex to give a feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment when something happens. there's literally nothing hard at all about this game and if for whatever reason you get your sense of accomplishment from being good at it - that's great and all - but it's the equivalent of being the king of connect 4 if you played connect four in a 5v5 match up..

Nickssaa1 votes

1: I'm not talking about League's payment model. In fact, I have no idea why you keep bringing up Lol as a free to play game. I thought the discussion was on level gating for new players, something that I'm pretty sure shouldn't depend on whether the game is F2P or not.

Now, are you seriously arguing that there is no sense of accomplishment getting to Gold for the first time ever? Seriously? Let's say that you are a player that plays League everyday, and you practice to try and get to Gold. When you finally get there, do you seriously think you would just sit there and say "cool, whatever"? Now lets apply this to a game like say, Halo. You decide to play the game on Legendary, and after hours of struggle, you finally beat it and get to the end. Are you implying that the average person would sit there and say whatever without any sense of accomplishment?

2: "That's not how video games work" What does that even mean? Are you referring to how video games are designed with forced in progression systems? You realize that you are referring to what is most likely the most diverse medium. Not every game has a progression system. Look at Stanley Parable, does that game have a progression system? Sure, many games have one, but it depends on what type of game. My argument is that progression systems that lock people out of core gameplay features don't work in a competitive multiplayer game.

3: Yes they don't use the same system, but are the goals different? I thought the goal was to introduce the player to the game and prepare them for ranked...

4: What newer system? What updating? Unless you're talking about the level up rewards such as runes and masteries, but those systems have detrimental problems that need to be discussed separately.

5: WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?? I am seriously looking through this and I wonder if you understand what you're blabbering about. Not only does this not make sense, it is also subjective. "nothing hard about this game" if you feel like it is, good for you.

Gelmous7 votes

why do accounts have levels in the first place

LA Losty9 votes

Because it takes a long time to learn the game at a level where you are ready to play ranked (or even play it properly) due to the complexity of League.

Gelmous2 votes

so what ? that's why there are different ranks, you rank up as you earn more experience

Skorch4 votes

Are you telling me i need to have people the equivalent of level 1 in my bronze games? Listen i know they are bad, but atleast a B5 player knows final build isnt 5pot and dorans.

And the reason levels exist are so people can have a sense of progress without needing to play competitive.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

Think of it this way: if there were people who had final builds of 5 pots and dorans, you wouldnt be with them. You, as a Bronze player, know the mechanics of the game better than the fresh players - you wouldnt have Level 1s in your game, because you are better than those Level 1s.

Just like how Challengers dont have Plats in their games or Plats dont have Bronze, Bronzes wouldnt have Level 1s. What youll essentially have is another tier below you for new players who jump into ranked. They wouldnt be in your games.

Glory ln Death1 votes

So, it would boost all the Bronzies into Silver?

rtbf761092711 votes

You are right there is functionally no difference to ladder having new player start off in ranked, since they would drop below current bronze lv30 players. However the new player experience of just losing a TON of placements and games to drop to the bottom of the ladder to start learning is brutal. So if having every option in the entire game open when you start for the first time. This is why game designers make "new player areas" and limit complexity upon starting the game.

Believe me this is better. Do you know how many "ive played 20 ranked games and lost all of them, when do i play new players" threads on the sc2 forums?

It's just like learning in school. You dont try to learn everything at once by attempting exams over and over as soon as you start a subject

SrbLud4 votes

They want you to get to know the map before you start jungling. They want you to notice the timers on camps, paths, learn the buffs etc...

As for flash... They want you to realize how great of a spell it is. Only when you get it after hours of grinding without it do you see its greatness.

kwixxy4 votes

To be fair with jungle. It's really really hard to jungle without runes and masteries. Even with smite. I tried at level 15 ish and I was backing every other camp. And raptors just destroys you.

But part of that was just me learning.

Poske3 votes

Back in season 1 i didnt know how great the flash is until lvl 21 or so

Aeszarck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GQYRb8RI,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-03-26T09:58:46.798+0000)

Back in season 1 i didnt know how great the flash is until lvl 21 or so

Oh yes, I remember when I was level 3 asking why my friend always took Flash but his second Summoner Spell changed. He said, "Flash is super powerful, the mobility it gives you is amazing." I said "Wait, but I've seen you Flash before, and the mobility was really tiny, and the cooldown is really long. I can get so much farther with Ghost, and Heal seems so much more useful in combat." "Well uh... it's really hard for you to tell right now, but Flash is really strong. You just need to trust me on that. You can dodge stuff, engage, escape, anything really."

A day later I remember chasing down some intermediate bot and using Flash to secure the kill by flashing onto the bot when it had somewhat low health. I was really proud and I asked my friend if I used Flash right. He was like, "Uh... yeah sure I guess. You could have honestly killed it if you just walked up to the bot and used your ultimate on it." I was playing Lissandra. "So when do I use a Flash ultimate then?" "When you don't think you can just walk up and get him." "How do I know when to do that? It's hard to practice since Flash is on a three hundred second cooldown. " "Uh... you'll just know. Trust me."

I'm glad Summoner Spells were level locked. Made the learning experience easier.

ForeverLaxx2 votes

Your reasoning is based entirely on trying to learn from someone who either doesn't know how to explain, or can't answer simple questions. That's not a reason to keep the system as it is.

Aeszarck1 votes

{quoted}

Your reasoning is based entirely on trying to learn from someone who either doesn't know how to explain, or can't answer simple questions. That's not a reason to keep the system as it is.

Do you think you could explain to a new player why Flash is so good?

ForeverLaxx2 votes

Yes, because I had to. Do you honestly think new players are universally unable to grasp simple concepts?

Hyrum Graff3 votes

Most of the answers in this thread reflect why they are level locked in the first place.

I believe when Riot gets around to updating the leveling experience, they will no longer have summoner spells be level locked.

Wonderlands2 votes

A brand new player would have no idea where to start. Similar to how rito increases IP prices of the champion pool.

Skins Project2 votes

Try jungling without masteries or runes... Or even with 10 mastery points... Tell me how easy that is :)

AdeBug1 votes

this all should be unlocked imo except smite until 18 at least plus if your team goes jg and the enemy doesnt, it's auto loss

Skorch2 votes

They HAVE said that it was a bad idea because without smite and such you cant have a jungler making it even harder for them to learn how to ACTUALLY play league. But they probably havent had the WANT to change it yet since they also have issues with Runes and Masteries while levelling.

My assumption is when Runes gets reworked Masteries will probably be changed slightly and low level summoners will also MAYBE be fixed. It also sounds like they are addressing IP costs of Runes and maybe champs at the same time but that is uncertain.

AKA there either is or hopefully will be a LARGE low level and IP overhaul change coming with the rune changes.

Wild Wes2 votes

When I started playing League of Legends I had never played a MOBA before and had no idea what I was doing. I was a kid who played COD and BF so I was super confused. And a few times around being level 7 I was last pick (in blind, I was just too late) and I was jungle. And my teammates flamed and flamed me for not taking smite when I literally couldn't take it. Kind of turned me off of League for a while because of the fact my teammates were mad at me for something Riot did.

Kirius Dark2 votes

Even at level 10 you'll have most champs struggling to jungle without runes and will get trashed by the camps

DaNinad1 votes

they dont want level 2 summoners asking, "where's the jungle" or "who's baron?"

SlntReaper2 votes

better to learn at level 2 than level10

SkZ DoPe1 votes

everytime i start a new account a see lots of people who play like they have never even played the tutorial. I get emails about the basics with youtube links on every new mail adress i use for these accounts so why do people still go 0/30 in bot games without any idea how the game works ?!

SkZ DoPe2 votes

the standard tutorial is bad af btw, shows ashe needs thornmail first kappa

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

So that new players have a harder time killing each other. And so that they dont have to deal with being forced into the jungle/getting camped by the jungler. Its just training wheels.

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