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@Ghostcrawler on DQ/SQ, The season as a whole.

Hyperiön··15 votes·1,262 views

So I just went through and literally read every one of your comments on "Ghostcrawler and his failures" and I have just a couple quick questions and then I will let you get on with your day working on making the game even greater:

  1. I know you said it already, but** would it be too difficult to add a separate ladder for DQ and SQ? And if it is not, why hasn't it been looked into more in depth?**

  2. Riot has been giving premades everything they wanted pretty much, and to top it off, they get all these special rewards for using DQ. So why is everything in favor of premades over SQ players, when you 100% need SQ players to make DQ work? Why don't we get any benefits from climbing by ourselves, not being possibly boosted by our friends?

  3. This is a long shot, and a hard to question to answer, so I can understand if you can't answer. If you look at the MMR system, it is completely whack. It takes no consideration as of how you played during your games. It is very linear, you win, you gain MMR, you lose, you lose MMR.** So my question is, would it be too hard to completely overhaul the system and create the matchmaking based entirely off of your gameplay? It would take in affect your kills, deaths, assists, cs, wards bought/cleared, shot calling?** It would totally level the playing field, and match you up to equal players.

In the current system, if you go on a few game losing streak, you are essentially tossed 2-3 divisions down, and have a hell of a time trying to catch back up with MMR and LP.

Lastly, do you think it is possible to increase the skillcap between divisions? I mean, I was silver the last 3 seasons, got placed in B5 after winning all 10 promos this season, and literally in like 3 days I was out. But even now, (current S2), I still see the same stupid stuff that you would see in bronze, hell, even below bronze. People just face checking blindly at baron or dragon, wasting summoner spells, trying to 1v5 when you are 2-5 etc... And then when you look at their ranked stats this season, they only won like 30 games this season so far? There is no way that someone new to ranked should be placed anywhere near silver. Every new player should be in B5, no matter how well they do, because if they truly are good enough to get out, they will.

So Ghosty (hope you don't mind me calling you that :)) If you do take the time to read this and reply that would be awesome because I hardly ever see Reds on the boards, and I would really like to get some facts down on which direction the game is headed.

41 Comments

A Basic Island6 votes

no, it probably isn't possible to seperate the divisions anymore than they are

when you got x million people in a single division (such as the bronze/silver/low gold/etc) the skill discrepancy between #1 and the worst in that division is HUGE. There's simply no way to fix it without adding thousands of sub divisions

Hyperiön1 votes

Well if they were able to redo the "MMR system" That would kind of separate itself out.

Very Hard Engage2 votes

its not millions, were all separated into regions right off the bat.

then when you look at the NA ladder and you go to OP.GG and see you are ranked say XXXXXX and are top 15% of players, you can do math and see how many people are in the ladder, which is currently 1.6million total on NA.

(op gg says im ranked 297957 top 17.66%, so 297957 x 100 / 17.66 = 1.6m)

then you factor in smurfs, and inactives and you realize the number is suddenly smaller.

then you see whos currently in a normal match, or something other than ranked and you see that even a smaller number of games are being played at the moment. so now riot especially has to screw up balance and pull from a wide range of people to just start the game, and realize its not a 50-50 of you winning this game.

Hyperiön2 votes

Which is very bad because you can see a very large difference between players in some games.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

and their only option to remedy the situation is to put a stop to dynamic queue (the root of all problems) which they've already stated isn't happening. so now you're forced to suck it up and stick through it or quit.

Hyperiön4 votes

I am not defending DQ whatsoever, but there is a way to make it work, but it would need a complete overhaul of the "MMR system" Making is based off of your actual play, instead of just winning/losing the game.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

correct, and they have said in the past they've considered separate MMR's for solo/groups. but they haven't said more than they were thinking about it.

but people like me are opposed to it because it means i still end up having to play with them and its not fair for my chances at winning no matter what precautionary measures they take at balancing out group vs skill/elo.

Hyperiön1 votes

The only way that it would be fair is this:

If you queue up and get placed with a premade, then it affects your DQ MMR. If you queue up and get placed with all Solo's across the board, then it affects your SQ MMR.

Thats the only way I see that it would be able to work, which Riot can of course do.

Blanchimont1 votes

{quoted}

I am not defending DQ whatsoever, but there is a way to make it work, but it would need a complete overhaul of the "MMR system" Making is based off of your actual play, instead of just winning/losing the game.

I think even this isn't enough because Dynamic Queue allows for uneven match ups. A 3 man premade with 2 solo players is a completely different format and runs under different rules than a 4 man premade with solo players. Both of these premade groupings would need to be placed undre different ladders and separate MMRs in addition to rating players based on their play stats in order for such a thing to even remotely work.

A Basic Island1 votes

is it really that few in NA? WOW!!

Still, in the lower tiers there are alot of players and even with tens of thousands of players it's pretty hard to accurately separate them

Hyperiön1 votes

It would be hard, but I am sure RIot could come up with a way, hell, they could even add a tier lower than bronze called "Learner" or something idk. There are things that can be done, but its just unlikely to see it.

redfeenix1 votes

Theres a lot of variance in skill because these players sent consistent. Some games they play like a 'gold' players and other ones they feed like a bronze

It's hard to accurately place these players into their correct rank

Hyperiön1 votes

Then the algorithm that they would end up using, would then average it out to take into affect your good and bad games, and put it in the middle. Or it could be like; "Hey this guy is doing well, with an occasional bad game, lets put him on how he normally plays and go from there."

redfeenix1 votes

Now let's say 10 games for placements I get lucky. My bot carries, enemies afk etc. So I get placed higher.

But really I'm a bad player and I start losing a lot. Do you think matchmaking handles this correctly ATM?

Cheers ty for replying

Hyperiön1 votes

To a certain extent yes, but I think that currently it does too much to your MMR when you go on a losing streak. And as for placements, the current system sucks for it haha (as I said, i won 10 of 10 games and got b5, was silver last season) Whereas if they overhauled the mmr system to take into account how you personally played more than just a win/loss, it would be exponentially better.

Quepha3 votes

1: He went into clear detail about how dynamic queue next to a pure solo queue causes dynamic queue to die. 2: He went into clear detail about how incentivizing group play offsets the difficulties of getting a team together so players are more likely to do it and have a better time than if there were no incentives and they simply queued up solo. 3: Awful, awful, awful, awful idea. This would be magnitudes worse for "ranked integrity" than dynamic queue could ever accomplish.

Hyperiön1 votes

1: You misunderstood by what I meant by ladder. Look at Dota, they ave separate MMR for DQ, and SQ 2: I know he talked about DQ benefits. my question in BOLD was as to why we don't have any benefits from climbing ourselves. 3: It is not awful. How is a system correctly calculating "Ranked Integrity" just by wins and loses? It barely takes into account how you play. For all the system knows, you could go 2-17 and still win, and you go up MMR. That is literally stupid. Why would you want players who played very very bad to get the same benefit as someone who went 14-2-10? It isn't fair to those who play well to be treated the same as those who feed, troll around.

Kei1432 votes

{quoted}

1: You misunderstood by what I meant by ladder. Look at Dota, they ave separate MMR for DQ, and SQ

If you read every post, he did say they were considering a separate ladder. Along with different rewards.

Nothing was mentioned in regards to different MMR calculations & match making.

2: I know he talked about DQ benefits. my question in BOLD was as to why we don't have any benefits from climbing ourselves.

Solo = Less time needed to get into games; don't have to wait for people to finish to organize parties thus getting into game faster

Premade = getting party bonus and all that jazz to encourage partying.

Lesser wait time before queues times is a benefit in itself.

3: It is not awful. How is a system correctly calculating "Ranked Integrity" just by wins and loses? It barely takes into account how you play. For all the system knows, you could go 2-17 and still win, and you go up MMR. That is literally stupid. Why would you want players who played very very bad to get the same benefit as someone who went 14-2-10? It isn't fair to those who play well to be treated the same as those who feed, troll around.

LP gains and losses were briefly mentioned. So were expanding ranked divisions.

I believe they said that they were looking for a proper solution, don't know what it is right now.

Quepha4 votes

{quoted}

3: you could go 2-17 and still win, and you go up MMR. That is literally stupid.

That's literally a perfect system in the long run because only actions that help win the game are incentivized. It's entirely possible that a split-pushing Singed going 2-17 is actually what wins his team the game. Rewarding anything but win vs. lose in ranked means that, in the long run, there will be players who perform actions that don't help them win the game but still climb and players that fall despite making the best possible choice. That can even lead to incentivizing bad behavior in games as players may stop trying to press an advantage on an objective because getting cs in a lane will always improve their LP gains/losses.

Any ranked system that calculates anything but "did you win or did you lose?" is an absolute joke.

Hyperiön1 votes

I never said it wouldnt calculate if you win/lose, I was saying to have it calculate more than just that. And if they have a split pushing singed all game, they will see that in farm, and objectives killed.

Quepha3 votes

{quoted}

I never said it wouldnt calculate if you win/lose, I was saying to have it calculate more than just that. And if they have a split pushing singed all game, they will see that in farm, and objectives killed.

It doesn't matter if the weighting is 99% k/d/a and other factors to 1% win/loss or 99% win/loss to 1% other factors, the bonus/penalty from the non-win/loss portion will always introduce inaccuracy to the system.

The more you favor those other factors in your LP/MMR gain/loss equation, the more perpetual inaccuracy you introduce to the system. The less you favor those other factors, the more it begs the question "Why did we implement this equation in the first place if it has such a low weighting that it basically does nothing?"

Cenobite Azaziel2 votes

1- http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ydAqrpb4-ghostcrawler-and-his-failures?show=flat&page=8 :

The TLDR of that is that if even a sizeable fraction of solo players enter solo queue only, then queue times for DQ get longer and longer, which then pushes more players out of DQ and into SQ, until DQ becomes a ghost town. This is similar to what happened to the original Team Builder, where some players really loved it (and still miss it) but as queue times became longer, more players abandoned it, driving queue times to be even longer and so on.

2- That he won't answer. I even asked why there is no MMR penalty for premades. Radio silence.

3- Shot calling isn't something easy to quantify. Death, kills and assist are way too hard to quantify. Playing as an assassin you generate more MMR because of the kills ou assist ganks, while if you are a tank top laner you won't get MMR for being tanky.

Winning and losing is the major part of this game. MMR system is fine. (not for Dynamic queue and the premades, but for soloq) .

Hyperiön1 votes

"The TLDR of that is that if even a sizeable fraction of solo players enter solo queue only, then queue times for DQ get longer and longer, which then pushes more players out of DQ and into SQ, until DQ becomes a ghost town. This is similar to what happened to the original Team Builder, where some players really loved it (and still miss it) but as queue times became longer, more players abandoned it, driving queue times to be even longer and so on."

I wasn't talking about a seperate queue, I am talking about a different mmr ranking for different tier, kind of how Dota uses.

The MMR system does need to be changed because of the fact DQ exists, the old system is not enough to take in all of the new variables. There is a lot of things that can go into affect if they redid the MMR system, shot calling can be done, based off pings, KDA is a big one that other games use on top of win/loss. it might be swayed a bit based on the class you are playing, but there can be something done to the algorithm to take in affect the class you are playing.

SaltyKracka2 votes

Pretty sure you didn't actually read his replies, because he answered all of these at some point or another.

Hyperiön1 votes

No I read them all, thats why I said "I know you already answered this" But all of my questions go more in detail than the previous ones.

AwesomeChad2 votes

he won't answer. Riot has made it clear that they will not respond to any of the questions regarding DQ/SQ for fear of backlash by the community.

Hyperiön1 votes

Ghost answered like 70 questions just a week ago about it.

AwesomeChad1 votes

really? Could you link me the thread or post?

Hyperiön1 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ydAqrpb4-ghostcrawler-and-his-failures

The Deckowner2 votes

It almost feels like it's descrimination now, Rito is telling us we had been.playing the game wrong all these years, and if we keep playing it this way we get punished.

Hyperiön1 votes

It isn't that we are punished, we just aren't important as we used to be.

Hyperiön1 votes

b

The Yetii Rider1 votes

A Rioter commented a few weeks ago that Dynamic Queue and the new champion select are written in an interlocking code scheme. In order to introduce Solo Queue, they would have to write a new code for Solo Queue that includes the new champion select in the same interlocking code scheme, and that's probably not something they can afford to spare the manpower on when they're trying to finish the new client.

New Client > Solo Queue. Seriously, this client is way too old and I can't wait for the new one. So, yeah. Save your bitching for after its release.

Blanchimont1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GQQBsVna,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-07-20T21:59:03.146+0000)

A Rioter commented a few weeks ago that Dynamic Queue and the new champion select are written in an interlocking code scheme. In order to introduce Solo Queue, they would have to write a new code for Solo Queue that includes the new champion select in the same interlocking code scheme, and that's probably not something they can afford to spare the manpower on when they're trying to finish the new client.

New Client > Solo Queue. Seriously, this client is way too old and I can't wait for the new one. So, yeah. Save your bitching for after its release.

The thing is that Riot's doesn't seem to care about Solo Queue. They can spare the time to create new temporary game mode that will never come back (I say never because Black Market Brawlers has not returned and the new Nexus Siege is kind of like it). I feel like they can spend the time to work on creating Solo Queue when they already spent the time to bring back Ranked 5v5s.

On a side note, don't forget they can limit Diamond players to grouping as 3. They can sure as hell implement something that limits everyone to just playing by themselves.

Hyperiön1 votes

Ghost said that if they were to do a separate ladder of MMR for SQ/DQ, it would be in the new client. but yeah, this client is poop.

eastcoastblaze1 votes

You don't need to separate the ladder, just the mmr's. Give people a group MMR and a Solo MMR, remove 4 man parties. AKA DOTA's system

Hyperiön1 votes

Thats what I was getting at :) Probably just worded wierd.

BloodyTompon1 votes

It wouldn't be difficult to add two ladders, it would be difficult to add two ladders in the current client.

Hyperiön1 votes

Ghost said that if they were to do it, it would be in the new client.

Hyperiön1 votes

b

Hyperiön1 votes

b

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