I would like to argue that Fizz does not have meaningful weaknesses

darkdill··11 votes·1,793 views

Fizz, as we all know, is a total painintheass. He's maneuverable, does TONS OF DAMAGE, doesn't have trouble farming once he gets some AP (if he's willing to use Playful/Trickster on waves), is hard to catch, and snowballs rapidly. That and he acts as a counter to a variety of other picks, especially mages like Lux or Brand, due to his Troll Pole. He can even build quasi-tanky (i.e. Abyssal, Zhonya's, Rylai's) and STILL delete carries with ease.

Does this give him a lot of meaningful downsides? Not really. He's able to do loads of different sh!t that others simply can't do, and it generally takes more than one Champion to defeat him. The only Champion I feel he would struggle against is Malzahar, who is not a popular pick. Swain is also good against him (but also unpopular), while Syndra goes even with him (skill-based matchup, but she's got an early-game nerf incoming).

Riot, if Fizz is going to continue being in League, he needs to be given downsides that are MEANINGFUL, not TRIVIAL. Lacks durability? Trivial; he can build AP-tanky items to compensate. Exploitable cooldowns? Trivial; other more-balanced Champions have the same problem, and Fizz can delete you before you have a chance to exploit those cooldowns. Dodgeable ultimate? Trivial; he can delete you just fine with his basic abilities.

Here are some suggestions I have for possible Fizz nerfs (take them with a grain of salt):

  1. Reduce Fizz's MR growth to 0. This would give him a similar weakness to Yasuo.
  2. Reduce Fizz's health regeneration. This would make poke attacks stick to him and force him to rely on his Q and E to survive lane.

I am not saying I disagree with Fizz's firepower and maneuverability; they should stay. I feel, however, that Fizz needs to pay a bigger price for said damage and mobility.

35 Comments

the Anarchit3cht2 votes

Riot has a problem with mobile champions in general and giving them relevant weaknesses. For some its that they are dependent on it Akali and for others its that they have a way in, but not a way out(most every adc) or vice versa. Fizz has none of these because his dash is on a low cool down and he has untargetability that lasts a very good while and clears a fair amount of distance as well as lets him clear walls and other forms of terrain.

darkdill2 votes

Well I gave them two suggestions already: no MR growth and bad health regen. Magic-based poke would stick, and force Fizz to dodge more if he doesn't want to recall so much.

The bad regen change worked for Riven.

the Anarchit3cht4 votes

Lots of people have, but where has it gotten Fizz?

Narasimha2 votes

he has untargetability that lasts a very good while

You...do know it doesn't even last a second, right?

the Anarchit3cht1 votes

{quoted}

You...do know it doesn't even last a second, right?

each portion lasts .75 seconds and if you add .75 to .75 that is 1.5 seconds. and on top of that he can move with it and use it to lead into his q to clear even more distance from you and then wait like 5 seconds and do it all over again to melt your face off.

killd0zer1 votes

1.5 seconds is a long time in a teamfight.

Zhonyas is 2.5 and that thing feels like forever

pretty hurts2 votes

Maybe let's just f*ck his base stats?

Kingsgrave3 votes

{quoted}

Maybe let's just f*ck his base stats?

That just punishes people for playing him and doesn't fix any of his problems

Dryditch1 votes

So... Fuck his base stats and remove his scalings?

killd0zer2 votes

That just punishes people for playing him

Lol what does that even mean? That's a complete gibberish statement. All nerfs "punish people for playing them"

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

Lol what does that even mean? That's a complete gibberish statement. All nerfs "punish people for playing them"

The house is still shitty you just made the base materials of lesser quality so it's much more difficult to live in it without just making certain areas of the house better and more modern

Sure we could just destroy Fizz's bases, but without addressing how his kit functions it just punishes people for even picking him and artificially inflates his difficulty

killd0zer1 votes

just punishes people for even picking him

You can't repeat the exact same sentence when you try to explain a sentence.

The argument is that he needs a nerf. Of course it's supposed to make them weaker. The OP has a good suggestion with reducing regen and MR, which makes damage stick on him. This means that he can be harassed out of lane, which is acceptable as he can all in someone with like 1 item.

Raptamei1 votes

{quoted}

That just punishes people for playing him

You are punished for playing about half of the champions in the game, just saying.

Kingsgrave2 votes
  1. No MR Growth

  2. Remake his passive to not reduce Auto damage

  3. Remove the Slow on his Playful Trickster

  4. Remove the 100% Total AD from his Q

AtheosisX2 votes

I'm more inclined to argue that his cooldowns need to be hit. Especially the troll pole. That ability really shouldn't be so spammy.

Narasimha2 votes

If this isn't a circle jerk, then he doesn have one major weakness. He is kill dependent. INCREDIBLY kill dependent. He is a melee champion with limited farming skills in a ranged aoe based lane. Unless he gets those kills, he will be behind gold wise. The job here isn't to kill Fizz then. Its to just play safe and starve him.

killd0zer1 votes

That's BS though, Fizz only really needs a DFG or Lich to blow someone up mid game, anything else is icing. If you shut him down so hard he can't get any items, you completely rolled him, but that applies to any champion.

Sohleks2 votes

I was gonna disagree with the train of thought of this thread... like how he counters Brand/Lux (weak picks anyway) and that Malzahar counters him (not sure about that)...

However your proposed nerfs actually make sense. Lower regen would emphasize his supposed weakness to poke in lane. However most fizz start flask to cover this up. Although beyond that lower regen wouldn't change much. However no MR per level would make him somewhat easier to kill later in the game which is probably the right idea.

Fizz is a weird case that doesn't dominate competitive but yet a big threat in solo queue. A lot like Riven. Hmmm... Riven was nerfed by lowering hp regen and shortening the duration of the shield.

Sir Randy2 votes

There's a few times when he's weak 1. When he has no mana, early-game he is extremely mana hungry. 2. When he misses his E, his E is his primary source of damage, if he misses that, then depending on how you're doing in game, he's vulnerable. 3. When he's not fed, with Fizz the way he is, a jungler should know to camp the lane, force him to play passively and get him extremely behind. Though he is really ridiculous, even if he's still behind, i've seen Fizz be able to 2v1 even though he could be 3/4/1 and the champs he's vs are ahead 1000-1500 gold.

Dryditch1 votes

We would all like to agree with you. Fry the fish.

DWT123451 votes

i feel like the problem is more with his burst and his e, which is basicly a zhonyas which can go through walls and deal damage

darkdill1 votes

Only thing about it is that it doesn't work against tethers or DoT debuffs like Malz's E or Fiddle's Drain. But Fizz can generally delete those two first, so...

Delimon1 votes

Honestly his E shouldn't do as much damage as it currently does. For something that allows him to go invulnerable that alone should cut the current damage and scaling on his trickster in half.

Acadiaum1 votes

I don't know why but this made me want to complain about Talons Cut throat >.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Considering this is possibly the most rational Fizz-related Boards post, I'll throw in my two bits.

Nerf his late-game E cooldown from 16/14/12/10/8 to 16/15/14/13/12. Larger window of vulnerability in the late-game, meaning it's actually a decision instead of E, Zhonya's, E.

Pocketbomb1 votes

Great suggestions. I think his E cooldown is a little short too.

Dar Raksada1 votes

His E cooldown is the problem, it's decent design in that it forces a decision if you want to use it to escape or if you want to use it to get in and do damage (that's why its damage should remain high) The current cooldown just doesn't support it, you can go in, kill someone in 1 sec, zhonya and go out.

Ryuku Cruxis1 votes

His q procing on hit effects is really what makes him hurt with just basic abilities. His Ratios aren't too much unlike other assassins.

People play fine against Fizz, then he goes bot/top and gets an ez kill with just a sheen and dorans, or on you if you make a mistep. Then again, it's just like any assassin who's only built a brutalizer or something. They usually have to use their ult though.

Then again without his q proc, he would need to hit his ult to kill anyone, and then he'd be kinda subpar, that thing is trash.

He needs a re-work, atleast an ability or two. His kit is kinda toxic in that he can 100-0 a squishy every 10 seconds or less, his damage nor safety is tied to his ult; though for a slow leading into displacement with good damage, it is nice, but..it's a skillshot ult on an assassin, enough said.

SH Azykan1 votes

long range, short cd harass or waveclear, or hard CC Fizz is very mana hungry early if he is forced to use his E to avoid skill shots

He is highly kill dependent as well, Ping MIA every time he is missing from lane and remind the other lanes if they are pushing too far out.

You can deny him farm just by harrassing him and delay his build, and as soon as he has any kill pressure: group and focus him I'd rather lane against a Fizz than a Zed or Leblanc of equal skill any day

Centuros1 votes

His invulnerability frames should NOT pop projectiles (that, or Vlad's should). I remember that property was removed from Vlad's pool because it was BS, then they just made another champion who could do it...

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Vlad's does pop projectiles. They never removed that aspect.

Neither of theirs break DoTs or tethers (although Fizz could use the jump to get out of range)

Centuros1 votes

Really? I thought they removed popping projectiles (especially turret shots) in the same patch they removed Flash's ability to pop projectiles (yes, it used to do that...)

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

I remember when Flash used to do that, and when it was a 700-range jump instead of 400.

Flash popping projectiles was broken, and eventually was removed. Vladimir's pool was meant to do that ever since his creation, and always has done it.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

fizz would be fine if he wasnt allowed to build item 3157

its sad and hilarious how that item alone is what makes both him and akali (to a lesser degree) so ridiculous in soloqueue.

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