Can any Rioters talk about the never ending threads of Melee VS ranged

Irelia Bot··71 votes·3,397 views

Mainly about the reasoning for giving ranged and melee the same power of effects from masteries even though ranged have proven to have a much more reliable time applying them many times during laning phase.

I know some mastereis like double edge Sword in season 4 were actually better for melee then ranged by a small amount. 2% more damage done and 1% more taken for melee and 1.5% more damage done and taken for Ranged. Is the 5% for 2.5% on both really an ideal way of having it? Would making ranged get 3% for 3% be a better way to balance out mastereis like this?

Masteries like Fresh Blood and Greenfather's especially are already proving to be far more to the advantage of say Quinn or Teemo then they are to Darius or even Irelia.

55 Comments

Pill Slinger19 votes

If melee is SO outmatched, then why are 9 of the top 15 winrate champs melee? And 13 of the top 20? Sure, ranged wins in lane. But the whole game isn't lane.

Ahristocats20 votes

top win rate in diamond1/master are all mages marksmen and ranged top laner, with the exception of riven irelia and poppy and lee sin/hecarim in the jungle.

and i don't think that riot doesn't care about master because else they're just telling them to be trash to get a good and balance game.

Leetri8 votes

Let's see... According to Leagueofgraphs, in Diamond+ the top 10 highest win rates are Annie, Pantheon, Galio, Blitzcrank, Skarner, Kayle, Karthus, Nunu, Sion and Twisted Fate. That's 7 melee champions and 3 ranged. No ranged top laners at all, in fact the first ranged top laner is Quinn at 17th place. According to Lolking, in Masters+ the top 10 highest win rates are Blitzcrank, Urgot, Swain, Aurelion Sol, Quinn, Jhin, Twisted Fate, Karthus, Nunu and Riven. There you got more ranged champions, but it's none of the champions people actually complain about. Actually, most of those champions are considered very weak by the boards.

Requiemsfire1 votes

Kayle goes toplane often. :o

AirKingNeo1 votes

She'll go mid now.

Ralanr2 votes

I can see Sion mainly because of his E harass. A good Sion player can effectively stay out of a ranged opponents AA range and bring them down with his E and their minions.

It all boils down to if Sion can aim and if the enemy laner can dodge. Beyond that, Sion doesn't stand much of a chance against ranged (though he's got more going for him that most melee).

Glory ln Death1 votes

Even if he is at a disadvantage, he isn't too bad off, since you can't push against him - E +Q takes out the whole wave, and he basically can't get tower dove.

Spoofghoul1 votes

Yess

Landing the E is one of those things you have to master, it has 1500 range and allows you to kite pretty much everyone.

It is one of the reasons i like to play Sion mid, you can poke and wave clear just as hard as your mage opponent except you have a lot more sustain, and if you don't get yourself killed early on you can grab a defensive item and make it impossible for them to deal with you. It's funny how i ''kite'' mages in lane bully them out and then out roam them. The same thing applies to assassins really There are hardly any bad matchups

Ralanr1 votes

Shh. People might think he needs nerfs.

Ahristocats12 votes

according to op.gg when you go into master, and look at those who have 800 games and more to not get a biased sample you have jhin/cait/ez with 3k games or more with a hilarious win rate

jayce and kennen with like 1k5 games and 55% win rate, mages all having a high number of games and more than 53% win rate

and like i said, only the 5 melee above having a high win rate

beside, who the fuck cares about blitzcrank? does blitz go top/mid? no, so stop saying bullshit

manbearswine6 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GAzRTATB,comment-id=0005000000000002,timestamp=2016-11-11T13:56:30.404+0000)

according to op.gg when you go into master, and look at those who have 800 games and more to not get a biased sample

800 games has an error margin of about 1.77%, which isn't that great really.

you have jhin/cait/ez with 3k games or more with a hilarious win rate beside, who the fuck cares about blitzcrank? does blitz go top/mid? no, so stop saying bullshit

???????????????????

Sure ez can go mid, but honestly mid lane always was mostly a ranged lane, assassins excepted(which are all currently a work in progress).

jayce and kennen with like 1k5 games and 55% win rate, mages all having a high number of games and more than 53% win rate

Look, I know jayce/gnar have range and that's annoying, but unlike actual ranged champions they aren't screwed the moment you manage to jump on them, and both of them are capable of jumping on you and melting your face off just like melees can, they have the strengths both of melee and ranged champions, and you can't just act like they are purely ranged.

and like i said, only the 5 melee above having a high win rate

...Um, what region are we going by?

I mean if we go by korea(Cause you know), you have riven, jax, pantheon, gangplank, teemo, irelia, zed(I guess he is relevant to the mid lane), jayce, poppy, rumble all having high performance, the only purely ranged top laner in here is teemo.(note that I focused on top lane so I mentioned zed only due to the minor note about mid lane, there are mages here, they just aren't top laners)

I could go by other regions, but if I get different results I'll just be stuck anyway, so basically your arguments are not supported by actual statistics like you claim them to be.

Toplane Fencer3 votes

And do Jhin or Cait or Ez go mid or top except for the occassional cheese? nope, they don't either, so stop saying irrelevant stuff. Wow, look at that, two ranged toplaners have a good winrate and are viable top. Yes, they need nerfs. No, melee top laners are not useless.

Pill Slinger1 votes

Did you know that Pantheon has an 82.3% win rate on players with exactly 78 ranked and 42 norms games played, the team's MMR ratings are 1832 on Panth's team and 1834 on the enemy's team, there is a Leona in the game, and the temperature outside is 58.3 degrees F? Which happens to be the highest in those conditions. If you exclude Blitz, Sona, Jinx, Riven, anyone with over 1k games, and bronze and plat elos.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Annie, Blitz, Karthus, Sion, and TF all have very low playrates.

Cosmic Warper1 votes

{quoted}

If melee is SO outmatched, then why are 9 of the top 15 winrate champs melee? And 13 of the top 20? Sure, ranged wins in lane. But the whole game isn't lane.

I think it's more specifiied towards melees that don't have immediate gap closers. Most of the top melee champs are junglers so they don't even have to deal with a ranged champion until they gank.

Pill Slinger1 votes

So what you're saying is that certain champs get counted by other ones in certain aspects of the game?

Auz the Ripper2 votes

it's more certain champions getting counted by other ones in every aspect of the game

MunchCrunchLunch13 votes

they have never responded to any of these threads that have practically been created since season one.

one of them few years back had some 5k upvoates and no response

I believe from a lot of videos and info i heard. that crit wasn't initially in the first version in beta. but it was later introduced. crit was obviously op as one champion (the adc ) could carry a game. what they did? they introduced dodge. dodge was op. and it was removed because luck shouldn't be a factor in the game. but crit stayed. past seasons u had a lot more defense against damage. tank items used to give a lot more stats and a lot more stat efficient and damage keystone didn't exist. defensive masteries were better as well.

crit is unhealthy. needs to go away. its the reason ranged beats melee. in terms of. adcs are mandatory. now to speak of ranged vs melee top lane. thats a similar issue that can be solved similarily. reduce the damage output of ranged champions. problem fucking solved. give them a weakness for having such an uninteractive advantage

make ranged champion auto attacks do 25% less damage. thats fucking fair.

LegendmakerGX2 votes

{quoted}

they have never responded to any of these threads that have practically been created since season one.

one of them few years back had some 5k upvoates and no response

They don't like to respond to questions that they don't know how to answer about.

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

you're basically asking them "why did you decide that adc's are mandatory in league and how you intend to fix it?"

lol. they will never. answer that question.

NineTailedMystic8 votes

make ranged champion auto attacks do 25% less damage. thats fucking fair.

RIP Mid laners trying to cs

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

to champions.

Anidan1 votes

So RIP ranged harass? Yeah, that doesn't sound healthy for the game either. Ranged is naturally going to have an advantage in lane, there's roughly fuck-all any MOBA can do about that besides melee champions specially-built to ruin the days of ranged champions. The key is remembering that this game isn't just laning, and ranged gives safety in a game that values safety incredibly highly. League did this to itself. The only way to make melee compete in laning reliably is to make them feel completely awful to play against, and the only way to reduce the value of ranged safety is to make them feel awful to play as in this game.

Keti1 votes

Great. Let's make champs like Cass even more godlike.

Anìvìa7 votes

There are so many errors in your knowledge about season one that i doubt you played during this time.

I am not sure about krit during the beta, but I can guarantee you that krit already existed in season one at the very beginning. I joined the game a week after the first season started( when the first iteration of the twisted treeline and with it 3 vs 3 was introduced. And the 3 ninjas got implemented, namly akali, shen and kennen(I am a ninja!))

During season one adc were played in the midlane, apc and support botlane, and two bruisers/tanks shared toplane. The jungle was not yet implemented in a way that it was possible to jungle with more than one or two champions. Warwick was the first and he made the jungle another keyposition, which resulted in a solo toplane.

Later on adc got pushed away from mid into the bottomlane, because mages were so much better in that position against adc. On bottom lane adc could also fokus on farming while the support was forced to become a wardslave with few items. It was the start of todays main positioning order.

evasion, the way it was back then, was only used by very few champions. The most memorable one was jax. The items that gave evasion were a minority as well. Think of the spellvamp items in that regard. It looked very similiar itemwise bevore it was removed entirely. Adc were indeed the mainrole in that time. Thus creating the Atack Damage "carry".

Together with the apc they fulfilled the role of the main damage dealers in the game. Bruisers exchanged damage for survivability, while still being able to hurt you and tanks had the purpose of engaging or catching the engage so the dmgdealers were able to do their thing while they tanked incoming damage and survive.

"past seasons u had a lot more defense against damage. tank items used to give a lot more stats and a lot more stat efficient and damage keystone didn't exist. defensive masteries were better as well."

force of nature got removed, the warmog equivalent for ap damage. But other items got introduced. I don't know if items realy give less nowadays. I am pretty sure that the resistance-values you reach nowadays are about the same as they were back then. At some point stacking more of it is not costefficient anyway. ( if you already got over 60% dmgreduction, adding the same amount of resistance would only give you about 10% more)

With the changed masteries, the dmg of most champions got heavily buffed. Effects on items increased this effect and with all the penetration items you did not had bevore, it does fell like you have less. This is not due to resistance issues, but because they went up with dmg those past seasons, which is a misstake, as it made instakills more likely and tanks hardly survive long even with good armor and mr values.

"crit is unhealthy. needs to go away. its the reason ranged beats melee. "

the range> melee thing is because ranged is actualy ; ranged. It is an advantage in itself. In addition. Ranged is not always going to win. Sometimes a melee champion kills a ranged one. Sometimes it is the other way around.

It seems you are asking for melee to always win against ranged. Just like assasins are asking for an instant win the moment they 1 vs 1 anyone no matter how many errors they do. Or how players are complaining about mages bursting people down quick. ( if they could not do that, they would not be burstmages xD)

Now you probably don't mean that at all. You want the possiblity for melee champions to win a fight against ranged, if they play better than their enemy.

If you ask me. We are already in that state. I can't remember a time as adc in which I did not die to a melee based champion at least once,( unless they had no melee bruiser of course)

Adc is my least favored lane this past season, because it became so hard to actualy not die unless you got fed somehow and even fed you are more likely to die than any other fed champion. The role is unforgiving and relies heavily on a champ or two to back you up.

"now to speak of ranged vs melee top lane. thats a similar issue that can be solved similarily. reduce the damage output of ranged champions. problem fucking solved. give them a weakness for having such an uninteractive advantage"

I wonder if adc complained about this back in season one, when they got pushed botlane. Is a new meta incoming? It would be interesting to see a different one after such a long time. Maybe bruisers/tanks go botlane with a support or mage to get a nice combination of those two. ( This happened for a while btw.. But players were mostly trying out new stuff)

I doubt it is going to happen, though. The meta was up for far too long. I mean: here you are, complaining about a role playing on a different position and having success at it. Back then it would have meant a change in the meta. Now it sounds like a violation against a made up law that melee have to excel at toplane and adc are forced to play botlane or they get nerved.

"make ranged champion auto attacks do 25% less damage. thats fucking fair."

I wonder where you got the 25% from. Did you calculate it based on a formular, which you worked at for the time you considered this to be a problem?

My guess would be you just stated a random percentage that sounded fair to you.

Let me list you a few reasons why this would not be fair at all:

  • The range of adc differs from one another. Taking equal dmg from all of them would favor those with higher range.( Unless you consider, that they are already balanced around their ability like it should be, but then again nerving them would be useless)
  • Not all adc solely deal dmg with their autohits. Champions like kog maw or lucian have their dmg spread over abilites, while other soleley rely on aas. (ashe an draven for example) This would favor the more spell based adc, as they would be less impacted by this change.
  • You imply reducing the dmg off all adc, even the ones that are hardly played right now, because they are already in a bad state (like kalista). It would not be fair to hurt all adc because some of them are exceptionally strong. (Remeber the time of irelia nervs. Now apply her nervs to all champs that fell into her categories. Does not sound fair at all, does it?)

And this is coming from an anivia main who prefers any other lane, realy. So claiming I would be a biased adc is not applyable. I hope I could make my point.

Good day Sir. Anivia out

Spoofghoul2 votes

I wonder if adc complained about this back in season one, when they got pushed botlane. Is a new meta incoming? It would be interesting to see a different one after such a long time. Maybe bruisers/tanks go botlane with a support or mage to get a nice combination of those two. ( This happened for a while btw.. But players were mostly trying out new stuff)

I doubt it is going to happen, though. The meta was up for far too long. I mean: here you are, complaining about a role playing on a different position and having success at it. Back then it would have meant a change in the meta. Now it sounds like a violation against a made up law that melee have to excel at toplane and adc are forced to play botlane or they get nerved.

There is no made up law that top has to be melee, the main reason why this was the case is because it has always been the most unsafe lane for solo farming. So you send your tanky guy top, if he gets ganked doesn't matter they can't kill him he can just walk back to tower.

But this is no loner the case, the increase in damage over the seasons is so vast that you get bullied out from minute 1 this goes for any matchup of melee into range. There will be exceptions of coarse like Sion with e spam.

Ranged have a very uninteractive advantage, being ranged. and with tankyness and sustain you could whether it a bit and ask for ganks. but now with the overall damage increase melee will be bullied so hard that they simply cannot even participate in incoming ganks, or they are so far behind that it is already pointless

Ranged champions these days have a stronger early game then most melee champions and they also scale better The sheer damage cannot be dealt with so early in the game you simply get bullied out. Minion changes made things even worse. And now there are the new masteries too.

Top and jungle were the last places for immobile melee champions to farm and scale up a bit before going ham. With ranged starting to take over toplane and some of them creeping into the jungle a lot of these immobile melee champions are being forced out of the game entirely

Simply because range is an advantage and gives a lot of power but there is no downside to it elsewhere.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

they have never responded to any of these threads that have practically been created since season one.

Because 90% of the time they are just the bruiser circlejerk whinning about problems that aren't there.

There is no dominance of ranged champions in the top lane, in fact: Top lane is mostly populated by melees. Jungle is mostly populated by melees. Mid lane is mostly populated by ranged. Adc is mostly populated by melees.(/s) Support varies depending on meta.

It's a fucking myth invented by top laners, and they will continue spewing their bs until top lane is 100% only melees.

Pimasterchampion1 votes

Adc is mostly populated by melees??????

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

Adc is mostly populated by melees??????

Yes.

Pimasterchampion1 votes

From what I see in game, the adcs I see in game are ranged. Most of the champions in the marksman category. I don't know how you find more melee adcs than ranged. Some examples of ranged adcs:

Ashe, Jhin, Miss Fortune, Caitlyn, Ezreal, Jinx, Kalista, Lucian, Teemo, Twitch, Vayne, Varus, Kogmaw, etc

Would you list out a number of melee adcs greater than the list I just provided?

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

From what I see in game, the adcs I see in game are ranged. Most of the champions in the marksman category. I don't know how you find more melee adcs than ranged. Some examples of ranged adcs:

Ashe, Jhin, Miss Fortune, Caitlyn, Ezreal, Jinx, Kalista, Lucian, Teemo, Twitch, Vayne, Varus, Kogmaw, etc

Would you list out a number of melee adcs greater than the list I just provided?

I'm not sure if you are trolling me anymore, but the "/s" stands for sarcasm, in the case it wasn't obvious that that comment was sarcastic, which should've been that way even without the "/s".

Pimasterchampion1 votes

oh sorry

Toplane Fencer3 votes

It is not the reason that ranged beats melee. Jayce and Kennen are possibly the two best ranged top laners atm. Teemo is third. None of them use crit.

whensmarvel1 votes

Teemo is annoying to lane against but he isnt as good as kennen or jayce.

I am biased coz im a teemo main but his kit isnt as strong as the latter.

Xonra6 votes

They've commented a bit in random threads and I saw a comment a few weeks back on Reddit. They all seemed to boil down to "We know you don't like it but we don't see the issue past seeing that you see an issue. Too bad". Not that exact wording, but was the long and short in every response.

They know people post about it and don't like it, but they are perfectly fine with it as is. Same old Riot. People throw things in their face and they go "naaaaaw it's fine."

kasfas6 votes

I kid you not I had three seperate games top vs ranged opponents and I got so triggered. Tank karma into my poppy, teemo into my kled and vayne into my sion. I swear ranged champions need to not function in the toplane altogether because they have no interaction whatsoever with melee opponents.

xWaters5 votes

I just played Naut against Vayne top. Living hell.

kasfas1 votes

Had the same experience yesterday as sion. Rushed thornmail into frozen heart. Then sunfire > randuins because their team was full ad. Sent that little prik right back to the shadows where she belongs.

xWaters1 votes

Lol. I just couldn't get any farm at all unfortunately. Every time I went I get creep blocked or she autos me to death. Really unfortunate. I think Sion would have a better time though because of his q.

Teridax683 votes

The core problem with all of these effects is that they scale with how well a champion gets to apply it. Currently, ranged champions can just get in range and apply these effects with an autoattack, whereas melee champions put themselves at much more risk to do the same, which is also why items like Guinsoo's, Iceborn Gauntlet, etc. tend to be distorted by ranged champions.

In the end, any effect will be easier to apply for a ranged champion than for a melee champion, and whereas ranged champions can poke with basic attacks, when a melee champion does the same outside of the early game, it generally signals an all-in. Riot has three choices: a) change numbers depending on melee and ranged champions, which splits the map and itemization into two and loses out on a ton of clarity, b) change nothing, which leads to effects being purely balanced around ranged champions, and thereby underwhelming on melee champions, or c) change melee champions as a whole to be able to get in range more reliably while still retaining counterplay, which would require huge amounts of balance work. I personally support option C, and think melee needs a lot more base movement speed (creep block also needs to go), but that would likely need another preseason at least to be implemented, if Riot even considers the possibility.

Shirvallah2 votes

I'm surprised you didn't say Nidalee. Teemo's ok..........but Nidalee? Jesus Christ. Can you imagine how much more damage her Q could do?

Irelia Bot4 votes

If I ever saw Nidalee in top lane anymore i might have put her instead of Quinn or teemo but I have seen Quinn and teemo in top since the patch hit and both are proving to be hitting much harder with non committed single auto attack poke.

kasfas1 votes

Oh , that's why I'm seeing so much ranged cancer toplane since the new patch. The stupid masteries that aren't weakened enough for ranged champions.

Hinagiku331 votes

Ugh, I just played Irelia into a Teemo top lane. I could barely farm minions, I didn't even bother trying to fight him. He just poked and poked, dipping into the bushes then poking me, using his blinding dart > AA then going back to ranged farming.

There was basically no interaction whatsoever, I couldn't touch him unless I wanted to dive on his face and eat his damage + minion damage. He killed me repeatedly under turret while I was desperately trying to stay in exp range and get a couple last hits. And that was with me sinking my gold into early Health and MR just to not die.

Eventually I got items and we won the game, but that lane was just so tiltingly frustrating.

Thisgameisturds1 votes

IMO it is because riot has steadily nerfed ranged champions over the past 2 seasons, and they have gone too far, at this point it becomes very hard to deal good damage on a ranged champion unless you are one of about 3 champions.

MunchCrunchLunch6 votes

/s

Vouloir Oublier1 votes

You could stop spamming these threads ya know [slayer-jinx-unamused]

GarthBrooksXD1 votes

I guess they did this because a bruiser or tank top laner will usually end up being more useful to their team than a ranged champion.

SlaktarTasken1 votes

Ranged champs to week in dis game das why Riot helps us adc so tanks not all damage win game so easy no skillz.

Existential Bard1 votes

I highly suggest if you are a melee champ facing any sort of adc top (vayne, Quinn, etc) rush a thornmail and go full tank against them. Your early game will be slightly rough, but if you go this rouge yuh should survive

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