The 'plants' are heavily tilted towards ranged champions...

Mira Arya Enthe·Oct 13, 2016·95 votes·3,843 views

Warrior chasing Marksman? Marksman shoots it and escapes.

Marksman chasing Warrior? Marksman shoots it and knocks Warrior back towards Marksman's team.

What are we going to do to fix the fact that ranged champions can just activate these things at their leisure from 500-750 or more range? Especially since melee bruisers are already suffering at high levels of play.

Won't this just make it even easier for junglers like to steamroll junglers like ? To say nothing of non-jungler interactions, when other champions are in the jungle besides the junglers.

EDIT: And no, don't even post "Wow we are long from them even being implemented calm down." That is exactly the point, we discuss it now, not AFTER it is a potential problem.

65 Comments

TalisidOct 13, 201649 votes

They could, and maybe should, just let people activate them by right clicking on them from a specific range, like Thresh lantern or Bard portals. That way they aren't dependent on the champion's attack range.

God knows Nidalee doesn't need any more counterjungling advantages.

FalconPawwwwnchOct 13, 201635 votes

Everything in this game is favored towards ranged champs

Their laning phases are better, so their early games are better

Their late games are better because of Last Whisper/Void Staff shitting on melee champions who need to build defensive

Etc

IPromiseTomorrowOct 13, 20162 votes

Only thing that counters range and only range is Windwall, Unbreakable, and Riposte...

Yea it sucks to be melee with no gap closer or intense movement speed.

LeetriOct 14, 20166 votes

What's with everyone complaining about the unfairness of ranged champions all of a sudden? A couple of days ago everyone were complaining about Yasuo and his Windwall, which as you said, COUNTERS the ranged champions. Or Zed, who also goes after ranged champions? It's like the boards are two mobs screaming the opposite things at each other.

IPromiseTomorrowOct 14, 20165 votes

I personally see past all these "range > melee" problems. I have dealt with it but on a smaller scale. I've played Yasuo, Zed, Azir, and Adc's a lot. And I just don't grasp the hate of "ranged is better" because my champs have mobility, and range... Both are solutions against ranged opponent.

I don't think I understand all the major problems of it since I don't play a melee champ with no dashes (mordekaiser, sion, udyr).

Mira Arya EntheOct 14, 20165 votes

{quoted}

I personally see past all these "range > melee" problems. I have dealt with it but on a smaller scale. I've played Yasuo, Zed, Azir, and Adc's a lot. And I just don't grasp the hate of "ranged is better" because my champs have mobility, and range... Both are solutions against ranged opponent.

I don't think I understand all the major problems of it since I don't play a melee champ with no dashes (mordekaiser, sion, udyr).

Well then that is the problem, probably 2/3rds of the melee champs in the game do not have ways to effectively close gaps. Especially if you count out assassins from the equation.

woodvsmurphOct 14, 20161 votes

And when they do, the enemy just dashes away or flashes and kites you anyways. While you are stuck getting chain cc'd by 4 people and your teammates hit the tanks instead of the half hp carry you cc'd for them.

LankPantsOct 14, 20164 votes

Both are problems, the reason why range vs melee is exploding right now however is that Riot created a system which inherently favours ranged champs who are already better off than melees.

Hinagiku33Oct 15, 20162 votes

Not sure how long you've been playing LoL, but the "range > melee" issue has been around since the game was in Beta and has never really stopped.

Melee champs used to be so bad that there was no reason to pick them at all. Eventually it led to kits like Irelia being required to even exist in top lane. Champs like Ryze Caitlyn Vayne Quinn Teemo Gnar Lulu have dominated top lane for at least half of every Season.

Even Riot acknowledges the problem - usually every time they release a new melee champ since their kit needs to be insanely overloaded and usually overtuned to even be considered "decent". I'm guessing it's coming up a lot now because new mechanics (jungle plants) likely to favor ranged champs are being implemented with the Assassin class update (which might render many assassins either OP or else trash if they don't have the burst they need anymore or take too long to kill targets with the changes).

Serial MemerOct 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Only thing that counters range and only range is Windwall, Unbreakable, and Riposte...

Yea it sucks to be melee with no gap closer or intense movement speed.

So? Mordekaiser gets the short end of the stick. That's the only champion that fits your description.

TFBaamOct 15, 20161 votes

Gangplank Garen Illaoi DrMundo Darius ??

Serial MemerOct 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

??

GP has a massive movespeed buff whenever he pops a barrel and 2 big slows on his barrel and ult

Mundo has his R and his spammable cleaver

Darius has a on his W and a pull

Illaoi has her mini dash w and slow on her E

Garen is the only debatable one with his negligible movespeed buff

The Cane MasterOct 14, 20161 votes

Even the most broken items, being Frozen Mallet and Rylai's Scepter, are abusable by ranged champions.

woodvsmurphOct 14, 20161 votes

but now we got Ivern . Which means we all have an Akali r onto their backline.

Yeah jokes aside, I entirely agree with you. I mean there was a point this season where tanks were too strong, but early and late game now are way too 1 sided towards ranged champs. Melee's are stuck standing there wondering if it is better to engage and hope to help kill the enemy tank before they die or to wait for the enemy to engage and kill their tank before they die. They really need to nerf item 3033 and item 3036 . And they wonder why people are playing graves jungle and rumble and kennen top. Because people are sick of playing tanks that get shit on even when they build properly.

Only Play DariusOct 13, 201622 votes

This is a problem with just about every minigame that Riot introduces, things like Gangplank 's barrels and Illaoi tentacles are MUCH harder for melees to interact with than ranged champions. I want to see more designs like Zyra 's seeds and RekSai 's tunnels that are autoattack range agnostic.

the weeabooOct 13, 201618 votes

This entire game is tilted in favor of ranged champions

They farm safer
They have the ability to kite
They can sit in back and deal damage rather than going head to head and dying
They have longer cast ranges on their spells
They can do things like leasing or taking dragon from afar

Just one more reason onto the list of reasons why ranged champs are infinitely better

Jadmaster5Oct 13, 20163 votes

they also are incredibly easy to kill as a skarmer

Only Play DariusOct 13, 201614 votes

Ranged champions usually are easy to kill, until you get into cancer like Gnar Swain Ryze Urgot that are just impossible for melees to deal with

SpookyNeedleOct 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

This entire game is tilted in favor of ranged champions

They farm safer

They have the ability to kite

They can sit in back and deal damage rather than going head to head and dying

They have longer cast ranges on their spells

They can do things like leasing or taking dragon from afar

Just one more reason onto the list of reasons why ranged champs are infinitely better

You only put the pros, what are the cons?

FalconPawwwwnchOct 13, 20167 votes

???????

What cons are there in this game exactly

This isn't dota, ranged champions have no turn speeds/cast times and can kite forever.

If you have two identical champions in LoL, but one is ranged and the other is melee, the ENTIRE burden is on the melee champion. The ranged champion has a complete advantage inherently because Riot has given them no inherent downsides to being ranged like other mobas

LeetriOct 14, 20164 votes

Ranged champions gain no magic resist at all upon leveling up (they also start with less MR), unlike melee champions who gain 23.4 more MR naturally. They're also squishier than melee champions, with a few exceptions like for example Swain who builds tanky.

FalconPawwwwnchOct 14, 20169 votes

are you saying 23.4 MR and some extra base stats are worth 5x as much range?

LeetriOct 14, 20163 votes

No, I have no idea where you got that idea from. I'm merely stating some disadvantages to being ranged, doesn't matter how big or small they are.

AhristocatsOct 14, 20161 votes

that mr bonus for being a melee is a fucking joke really, no other words are found.

RavenMagusOct 14, 20163 votes

They're squishy, they're often slow, they're typically not as effective when built with lots of tank items.

I often see a Hecarim, Vi, Lee Sin, Irelia, or many other generic bruisers dash onto a squishy mage or ADC and delete them in a second or two with one damage item. Yeah, melee have weaknesses, but they have a lot of strengths too, namely in mobility and pure stats (tankiness + damage).

Dextix LTOct 14, 20162 votes

Squishy? Not really with lifesteal and the ability to kite and heal. Slow? Only a few are slow, but they make up for it with cc and items that actually give movement speed. Not effective against tank items? While having the BEST tank busting items???? Really???

And im sorry, if those champs get to your backlines so easily, either your adcs are out of position or your frontline sucks ass.

MasterXY5Oct 14, 20163 votes

Ranged champions have lower damage than melee ones. You think melee champions can't have a lifesteal? Or things like item 3044 to stick on an ADC. Even if ADCs cc them, they can easily jump on them with higher movement speed and a gap-closer. Only ADCs like Vayne or Ezreal Lucian can outplay their opponents and those are built for those things, to be safer than other ADCs. Even though they can easily be CC-ed and killed by any melee shit.

Ranged champions are built for the teamfight, when everyone is protecting them, and that's their main usage. The exception here is of course Vayne .

But really just think about it, melee champions have:

Higher damage early-mid game
Higher mobility
Better ways to survive
Higher base MR (this is more important than you think it is) and higher base stats in general
CC / a lot higher damage than ADC in any stage of the game
Movement speed items like or
Tankier stats while still dealing tons of damage or have tons or CC And the list goes on...

Honestly, I main ADC and you have no idea how much effort we have to make to kill anyone 1v1 and how fed we need to be.

Tik115Oct 14, 20163 votes

Higher mobility

Better ways to survive

Higher base MR (this is more important than you think it is) and higher base stats in general

CC / a lot higher damage than ADC in any stage of the game

Movement speed items like or

Tankier stats while still dealing tons of damage or have tons or CC And the list goes on...

That's hilarious, it really is

Higher mobility? doesn't matter when they have to haul ass for 2-3 seconds to get within melee range + more time when the ranged champ kits and that's not even including the whole fact that pretty much all range champs have some form of CC or a skill which adds mobility (Seriously look at any ranged champ that isn't Urgot Malzahar

Better ways to survive? how when you have to more often then not burn your gap closer or flash to get to the enemies, once you're in thats it you ether kill them or you die and it's not like they can lifesteal stuff given the items they need don't have it (And Riot will never add a Lifesteal tank item because then ranged will build it too)

Higher base states? hardly compare AurelionSol to Sion

Base health? AurelionSol by 7 Armour? Sion by 4 MR? Sion by 2

What about at 18? Health AurelionSol by 200 Armour by 6 MR Sion by 23

Alot higher damage then ADC in any stage of the game, no, just no unless you fought ADC Urgot you know that is a damn lie.

movement speed items, yeah great 20-80 flat movement speed if you keep AAing and don't get slowed

Meanwhile most of the ranged item choices? % movement speed with 5% being the minimum hey what's 5% of 320? 16, then add in again the fact that pretty much every range champ has ether a slow or mobility option with the melees items having NOTHING to counter that.

Tankier stats? sure bravo you have ONE good point here. and tons of CC? ok yes another valid point here

Except items which can do a severe number on tanks exist like item 3035 item 3153 item 3151 item 3071 item 3135 and at least 2 of them show up in EVERY MATCH

So at the end of the day you made only 1 valid point, Melees have better CC, but even then they only JUST have better CC, when you have range champs like Taliyah Swain Thresh Kennen able to provide near identical or often times BETTER CC I'm sorry I think its valid to say that this game IS heavily in favor of ranged

MasterXY5Oct 14, 20162 votes

Jeez, you are impossible. You are probably bronze who doesn't even understand the game ;)

And yea, if they are so broken why don't u main them? Ha?

Okay let me explain this "higher mobility" and "better ways to survive" thing:

**Let's take an example: Irelia vs Ashe **

s passive gives her 10% CC Reduction if 1v1
's Q gives her a gap-closer with around 3-4 seconds CD (with some CDR that every builds)
's W gives her some damage on autos
's E gives her massive CC (2 sec stun if has more %hp than her, that's just broken) and heals her
's R gives her nice damage ' passive proc and nice and heals her
's passive gives her an OP slow on her basic attacks with the huge recent buff on slow that gets x3 if she truly crits (up to 60%)
's Q gives her attack speed and bonus AD on attacks, so basicly it modifies her damage
's W gives her a decent poke and and easy passive proc
's E grants her a nice vision every 50 seconds to make sure she doesn't get ambushed
's R gives her and awesome CC that is ONLY 1 SEC (reduced to 0,9 given 's passive) stun if is right on top of her

But this entire " Ashe fanstasy of CC" is useless if Irelia can use Q that deals tons of damage with item 3078 every 3-4 seconds, yes i know Ashe can lifesteal while Irelia 's Q in on CD, but THEN she is screwed because then Irelia will stun her for 2 FUCKING SECONDS that's more than enough for her to finish her poor victim Ashe off (with her W, Q's proc and R's, proc)

Ashe stands no chance winning a fight against Irelia and that's perfectly fine, it should work that way, I mean Irelia is still melee in teamfights.

Irelia had HIGHER MOBILITY(Q on 3-4 sec CD and 345 MOVEMENT SPEED while Ashe has 325) and BETTER WAYS TO SURVIVE (W heals, R heals, E stuns anyone that has more current %hp more than you). She had HIGHER CC (2 second stun rather than bunch of slows and 0,9 second stun cause if Ashe is stunned in that period she is fucking dead, while if Irelia gets stunned she doesn't bother it so much because of tankier stats and her high base damage that allows her to build tanky items.

In teamfight, if someone stuns Ashe she is dead and if someone stuns Irelia she gets 10% CC Reduction and ability to stun anyone who is near her with higher current %hp. Irelia gets Lifesteal from W and R. THAT means that she has BETTER WAYS TO SURVIVE, not your bullshit with gap-closers.

Irelia has everything on this list, please tell me if I'm wrong, but just don't say such a stupid reasons why, like SHE CAN KITE ME, or something like that.

Many other melees have shields (like Nautilus 's W, Leona 's W, Sion 's W, invulnerabilities (like Fizz 's E or MasterYi 's Q), Damage Reducion (like 's W, Katarina 's E), Projectile block ( Yasuo 's W, Braum 's E) Resistances increase (like Olaf 's R Passive, Jax 's R, Braum 's W), those are all BETTER WAYS TO SURVIVE!

woodvsmurphOct 14, 20161 votes

Higher move speed -- because by the time you catch the enemy due to having higher move speed, you've lost more than enough hp to negate your higher base stats. When you see games where a 3/3/3 adc can win a 5v5 for their team but the 7/2/3 enemy top who closes the gap on the adc can't do anything. Yeah, ranged champs have it so unfair.

woodvsmurphOct 14, 20161 votes

That works mid game if your team didn't feed the enemy carries. For all of 10 glorious minutes in the game, enemy carries are RIGHTFULLY punished for poor positioning and poor kiting mechanics (if they are bad at kiting). Rest of game, they shit on you even if you play much better than them individually.

ToastersaotOct 13, 20169 votes

Just make it so it takes 2 ranged attacks to proc one, just like how it takes more ranged attacks to destroy Teemo Shrooms than melee.

Mira Arya EntheOct 13, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Just make it so it takes 2 ranged attacks to proc one, just like how it takes more ranged attacks to destroy Shrooms than melee.

An option.

woodvsmurphOct 14, 20161 votes

problems with that: Graves Jhin to name the most blatant examples

Chamuel85Oct 13, 20166 votes

That was my first concern too that they may be too impactful for certain types of champions and heavily favor them. Especially if you're trying to flee (without them being on the mini map that is), then you unfortunately run into something that spells your doom randomly. Such as that knockback.

Mira Arya EntheOct 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

That was my first concern too that they may be too impactful for certain types of champions and heavily favor them. Especially if you're trying to flee (without them being on the mini map that is), then you unfortunately run into something that spells your doom randomly. Such as that knockback.

Even if you can see it, you will be forced to run around it, or let Caitlyn trigger it as you run across it. Any obstacle in terrain is automatically more damaging towards melee than ranged. I learned this from PvP and Raiding in MMOs. Range is just a huge advantage, we don't need to make it bigger, in an RNG manner no less.

IsmokenugsOct 14, 20164 votes

Just make it into a short channel grab like the turrets on dominion, then it can be contested through dmg, or multiple people grabbing it; then it would be based off waiting for the right oppurtunity, if the plants have a knockback or what not.

CalabokOct 13, 20163 votes

I agree nerf melee champs

Baron PerenoldeOct 13, 20162 votes

Make it so that it takes 2-3 ranged attacks to pop them then.

Ben SharpioOct 13, 20162 votes

This game has such a bad habit for its insane amounts of mobility creep, and it almost feels like whoever is playing champions that don't have 600 dashes/flashes/leaps/blinks ect have an incredibly hard time competing in this meta full of slows/stuns ect. Ok, now that we got the "thesis" out of the way, there are few people in this community that like to play champions that lack in season 6's fundamental aspect of mobility creep.

NOW, originally i was going to make this post about how ranged champions have HUGE advantages over melee champions in a LOT of aspects. But the main complaint of this thread is about the blast cone with how it can be abused by both ranged champions and SPECIFIC melee champions that will further drive people away from playing a unique pool of champions.

There HAS to be some type of way for champions with 0 mobility and champions that have mobility to co-exist for casual players. The blast cone is not the direction to take.

Say i'm playing Sion, in some imaginary world, and i'm jungling like i usually do, and i'm being chased by the enemy team. The blast cone heavily favors ranged champions in a sense that they have higher AA range (OBVIOUSLY) and can trigger the blast cone from far away and send me back into the enemy team, and i die.

Solution: Make the blast cone take 2 AA's for ranged champions to trigger the cone and make Melee champions trigger it in 1 AA. FIXED RIGHT?

No, NOT FIXED. You're now left with melee champions that have insane mobility like LeeSin Fizz Khazix Riven and Nidalee (in her cougar form) Ekko ect who already have a FUCKLOAD of free escape/get out of jail free cards, and everyone else is stuck with 0 mobility creep and are once again, left in the dumpster in the hierarchy of map/gameplay efficiency because this new addition does NOT help us. Instead, youre BUFFING the other champions that have the "oh i fucked up, let me get out for free" mechanic that is incredibly unfun to play against.

I can't really think of a solution to this, and i'm NOT saying NERF ALL OF YOUR MAINS

BUT HERE'S what i suggest: Champions that don't have mobility in their kit, like leaps/blinks/dashes ect like Sion or Mordekaiser for example should naturally have higher base movement speeds to compete with the other champions if the plant changes go through. I dont know though.

ZT XperimentorOct 26, 20161 votes

I concur; the sluggish champions should have higher movement speed to compensate, while those that can dash & blink have lower movement speed as an opportunity cost.

President Swa1nOct 13, 20162 votes

Easy: two hits for ranged to trigger it, once for melee.

Karn BishopOct 14, 20162 votes

Nods this is one of my main concerns as well, i mean am i just supposed to abandon melee champions even though i enjoy them in favor of ranged cancer champions? feels like these were designed to say if you are melee then sucks for you since your playing the game wrong, go jungle graves or nidalee you scrub, love riot.

MonkeyMadnessOct 14, 20162 votes

And no, don't even post "Wow we are long from them even being implemented calm down." That is exactly the point, we discuss it now, not AFTER it is a potential problem.

You mean like we did with Dynamic Queue?...See, you assume that Riot actually gives a fuck about us and our opinions of their game, when in fact all they care about is their money. I'm sure someone has done a profit analysis and determined that LoL needs more plants. So, we get plants. GG.

jama655Oct 14, 20162 votes

this plant ideas lookin pretty stupid i must say

Critmaster GarenOct 14, 20162 votes

make them trigger by stepping on them

a second delay for the exploding plant, so you have time to position.

the most issue i have with these things right now, is that ranged champions can trigger the vision and exploding plants by shooting over walls.

it also makes it really easy to use them like the op described.

DicersonOct 14, 20161 votes

WHERE IS EVERYONE SEEING THE EFFECTS OF PLANTS?

I checked surrenderat20 and the main page and nowhere are the effects of plants, what they are (Other than plants) or what they do described.

So how can you already be bitching about something before we even know what they do?

Mira Arya EntheOct 14, 20165 votes

{quoted}

WHERE IS EVERYONE SEEING THE EFFECTS OF PLANTS?

I checked surrenderat20 and the main page and nowhere are the effects of plants, what they are (Other than plants) or what they do described.

So how can you already be bitching about something before we even know what they do?

Riot published video examples...

softest boyOct 14, 20161 votes

What if instead they just clicked it at a certain range? That range being the same for all champions? Like a little circle and you have to be on the edge or within the circle range to click on the plant and activate it's thingy.