How to play against ranged tops?

Wicked FlamezZ··6 votes·7,405 views

So I was playing renekton vs kennen and right off the bat he doesn't cs. He literally misses 4 cs on the first wave trying to spam q and auto me. Which unfortunately means that I get 0 cs or take 1/4 my hp in damage. By the time the wave gets close enough to turret so he couldn't just AA spam me he was level 3 and I was level 1 2 cs...... Even getting that 2cs cost me like 1/3 of my hp. He was so far ahead he was using E+W to reset the wave under my tower and I literally couldn't do anything. It was AD kennen at first so i started cloth + 5 pots and still couldn't sustain because he was literally willing to miss 80% of cs to zone me. We have a JG nunu so he couldn't gank because nunu e is canceled by kennen e so 0 CC to catch this slippery fuck.

How do I freeze lane against soemone who can reset it so easily? If I contested the reset I lost half my hp....... like what? What did I do wrong? I built cloth armor + 5pots to counteract his doran's blade and AA spam, I attempted to freeze lane so he couldn't bully me in the middle, I used q poke to grab CS and sustain.... I completely changed my game plan to play around him and still couldn't...

Is kennen sleeper OP because at 1-0 he could almost burst down our TANK NUNU even after his ult damage got reduced by 50%.... If he is full hp bursting a nunu what is a renek supposed to do?

19 Comments

Zed genius2 votes

The way you have to think of it is that you actually don't play against them. Most ranged toplaners are picked due to range advantage to have a free laning phase. Unfortunately, you have to deal with it and be behind in lane, look for opportunities for your mid and jungle to gank you and try to capitalize when they use their escape if they have one because you should in theory win all in trades.

Wicked FlamezZ1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G7GwYURn,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-08-24T22:24:24.237+0000)

The way you have to think of it is that you actually don't play against them. Most ranged toplaners are picked due to range advantage to have a free laning phase. Unfortunately, you have to deal with it and be behind in lane, look for opportunities for your mid and jungle to gank you and try to capitalize when they use their escape if they have one because you should in theory win all in trades.

I had nunu JG and I will give him, he tried. So did kat. Unfortunately we don't have any hard CC and my team seems to never. The only hard CC we had was my W but I can't touch a kennen post-3 with W unless he is already CC'ed so it's like......breh. He didn't even ward that's how helpless my entire team was to stop him. He just simply outran us. The problem with all in is that by the time I had level 3 AND he was out of position was so gassed up on CS over me he was level 6.....

I feel like whenever I play some free-lo ranged champ the enemy has like amumu JG that camps me but everything they have a free-lo ranged champ with have some dumb soft CC jg like nunu. That's why I stopped playing them. I got tired of having some CC machine on the enemy team but it was probably because riot alwauys makes me pick in the first 2 people. Idk what their algorithm is detecting but on all three of my accounts I am always first pick. I don't understand it.

Zed genius1 votes

Look I am not going to pretend I know everything about top lane (it is my worst role) but this is just about a certain game that you had an unlucky comp. I'm sure this is not every game and that your brain just remembers the negative stuff more,which is completely normal(i think). I don't know how else I can help you besides my previous post. Maybe a top lane main who is higher elo than me can help you more

Sohleks2 votes

You can't really expect to win if he's really good. Even though you're on the almighty Renekton Kennen is a pretty strong and consistent ranged champion and in Riot's almighty wisdom they let ranged champions abuse Doran's Shield and Ninja Tabis if ones gonna be that scummy too (like Teemo can easily afford Tabis because his dot damage is soo high)

But you should be able to endure. Maintain relevant cs and be gankable at least on average. Especially in sub diamond find openings hopefully. You must have you own teleport if you're not confident in the ignite cheese and you should start doran's shield because it's really op. Cloth 5 (now 4) died a long long time ago. 50g per pot is a waste of gold. You should ideally get refill pot every single game.

But it really sucks melee always have to start the game out being assaulted by ranged ad, even the "strong" melee lane champs. If they slow push and zone from level 1 slow enough you'll be forced to wait to cs a big wave under your tower and if your jungle doesn't show top to at least scare them away a bit you'll probably be put at an hp deficit TP loss situation. But what if Kennen's jungle was around top too and so your jungle can't fend em off without getting 2v1'd while you have to cs under tower or your jungle has to leach your lane exp putting you behind....

Hexdrinker and Ninja Tabi in particular are strong items but at both you're definitely suffering a damage loss. Part of the Kennen problem is his damage is mixed. When AD Kennen was highly contested in the LCS even though he fell off many games part of his strength was his flexible itemization to go wits end for lots of magic dmg or AD items. He dictates your build path. I don't see AD Kennen anymore though however for AP Kennen ADC runes are actually better for early game. Either full ADC or swap 15 ap for attack speed because AP hardly does jack especially early.

On the bright side Renekton is good because he abuses Fervor super hard.

Ninja Tabi in particular is really good because the mitigation is unparalleled at the 1000g point and mobility is important for everything to fighting to returning to lane to roaming to dodging skillshots and running into cs range and out of range. Merc's aren't bad either however. I consider shoes even more important than most people.

But yeah with the current game design melee typically only beat ranged by outplaying with more difficult playstyles or tanking up so hard. And tanks are super strong true but ultimately they are pawns of the ranged dps champs.

You could try Pantheon or Wukong'ing them (he's like a cheese version of Irelia) or join them or become a better player than them...

I'd recommend buying Doran's shield though. Level 1 pushing in is typically not at all recommended . You CAN cheese them with a gap close + burst levels but it can also put you in bad situations where you pushed forcing you to contend dying cs opening yourself up to more poke and gank risk. NEVER push level 1 as melee vs. ranged if yours isn't equipped to either cheese or have somehow ridiculous level 1 push power. Even up to plat I actually show up for lane late intentionally and see if they start pushing and when I see they do that versus TEEMO I know it's gonna be an easy game. I learn a lot about a player 5-30 secs in lane based on their champ and item aggression and lane manipulation.

Unfortunately league isn't much a game of skill as it is about bitch moves, knowledge and yeah teamwork.

Once you have a few levels you should be able to contest as Renekton though and not play so back. But everytime you want a say you put yourself in more risk of ganks than Kennen does and that sucks.

Another suggestion I might have is Olaf. He has strong ranged waveclear, can potentially pwn scrubs and basically defies the laws of melee with his ult. Righteous Glory might be kewl on him. He has super dps potential too.

Limeheart XI2 votes
  1. Let them push
  2. Miss a few farm for safety
  3. ????
  4. Cry
Wicked FlamezZ1 votes

He kept 4 waves in middle of lane >.>

Frivolous Fossa1 votes

A renekton can 1v1 at level 1. You cant let him get free damage. Punish him when he goes on you. If you don't at least even out the trade right away you will lose lane. It sucks, but kennen counters you. Simple as that. If you don't stomp him almost immediately then the entire lane phase will suck. Roaming also helps, though is not a great option if you are pushed....

Wicked FlamezZ3 votes

{quoted}

A renekton can 1v1 at level 1. You cant let him get free damage. Punish him when he goes on you. If you don't at least even out the trade right away you will lose lane. It sucks, but kennen counters you. Simple as that. If you don't stomp him almost immediately then the entire lane phase will suck. Roaming also helps, though is not a great option if you are pushed....

I thought I needed to equal it out at first too but then I played it out in my head. If I tank Q I want be able to touch him without first eating about 3 autos, then I eat ~3 more disengaging the trade. Plus what ever ability he took. If I take Q there is no scenario where I can apply enough damage to justify a trade.

If I take W same thing. Except I end up eating more auto's because I need to be that much closer.

If I take E I can get a E+Auto and E to disengage trade but even then that allows him to get a free Q on the engage because he can use my E where I cannot dodge to hit me. That single Q alone negates the trade and what ever auto's he throws at me are a lost trade.

The only way for me to trade that match up is hitting 2 so I can have both damage and disengage but seeing as by the time I hit 2 he was level 4 it didn't matter because he was too strong to engage.

I guess I'm just annoyed because I have been counter picked by ranged top laners 4 games in a row because riot keeps making me first pick. I don't feel like counters should be so strong they require a jungler with CC or you just lose. Even the former master one trick renekton SRO said when I asked him that I lost that without a jungler.....so I came here hoping it wasn't so. Guess it is. That just seems so unbalanced for a SOLO Queue environment where you know players won't be going out of there way to help each other. I agree with difficult match-ups but lost match-ups are unfair. Especially if you have an RNG based system that allows you to make a single player FIRST PICK 4 games in a row. They need to make it so you are more unlikely to get the same pick order the more you get it because this is BS. My Games: Teemo + Camp, Teemo + exhaust, Jayce and now Kennen...... Like really? Riot?

Frivolous Fossa2 votes

I get your frustration, I get there too. I'm not particularly good at it, but maybe try watching some SRO on the youtubes, I'm pretty sure he shows this exact matchup and how to deal with it. I might be mistaken....I think I've seen it though. Hopefully you will learn more from it than I did.

Wicked FlamezZ1 votes

{quoted}

I get your frustration, I get there too. I'm not particularly good at it, but maybe try watching some SRO on the youtubes, I'm pretty sure he shows this exact matchup and how to deal with it. I might be mistaken....I think I've seen it though. Hopefully you will learn more from it than I did.

I went to watch the video and the issue is the elo. The high elo kennen he played against didn't miss all his CS just to poke me giving SRO breathing room to last hit with Q while my kennen acting like their wasn't even a wave and missed tons of cs to apply AA to me. The high elo kennen also didn't toss wards into the bushes SRO was in because he knew that if he wasted wards like that a high elo jungler would clap his butt in a heartbeat. That's the issue is that if that kennen played like that in a higher elo my team would have clapped him but he is allowed to get away with it in this god forsaken division.

Erockandroll1 votes

I'm trying to remember, wasn't Irelia a niche counterpick to most ranged top laners?

What ever happened to that?

jwebb01131 votes

{quoted}

I'm trying to remember, wasn't Irelia a niche counterpick to most ranged top laners?

What ever happened to that?

issue is she typically has to scale into mid-late game early game she is fairly weak and right now so many champs either dominate her or flat out class her

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Irelia is a midgame assasin that doesn't teamfight well and doesn't scale. Now you can pick Maokai, Zac, Ornn and similar. They are ok in lane and superior teamfight + tankiness. She is also predictable champion with no way to outplay compared to others. If she can outstat you, you die. If you duo with the jungler, camp for Irelia and she can murder everyone midgame and try to finish on time. If not, she is a bad pick.

Yenn1 votes

You farm until you hit 6 and kill Kennen. If he goes to auto early, you can still dash into him, chunk 30% of his health, and use the second dash to get out. He has no sustain and his single target damage is terrible, so you can heal over anything he does.

Once you hit level 6, you can just dash into him and 100 to 0 him. Sometimes you can bait him into stunning you before you all-in, so that subsequent stuns are diminished.

Renekton shits all over Kennen, unless you're bad and keep eating max range Q's, in which case the solution is to stop sucking.

Wicked FlamezZ1 votes

{quoted}

You farm until you hit 6 and kill Kennen. If he goes to auto early, you can still dash into him, chunk 30% of his health, and use the second dash to get out. He has no sustain and his single target damage is terrible, so you can heal over anything he does.

Once you hit level 6, you can just dash into him and 100 to 0 him. Sometimes you can bait him into stunning you before you all-in, so that subsequent stuns are diminished.

Renekton shits all over Kennen, unless you're bad and keep eating max range Q's, in which case the solution is to stop sucking.

What level are you talking about all trading him? You can't be talking about level 1 because let's see how that plays out. Kennen starts to poke me before anyone cses I go to E on him but unfortunately his auto range takes both E's unless he is a literal ape and walks into me, so now at level one I am stuck in HIS minion wave with no disengage and no abilities and he can just Auto-step and kite me around the minions until I am forced to disengage or die.

Unless he plays like a monkey you can't contest level 1, sheer numbers agree. And like I said, I got level when he was level 4 so the level 2 engage is out lol. I am not sure where you are getting renektons "heal" data from because 2 of his autos dealt over my pre-6 heal. Also, if you fact check by looking at renek's Q healing and AD scaling you can see that is true again by sheer numbers.

So I'm not sure where your getting this from but SRO, the rest of this forum thread and factual numbers disagree with renekton shitting on kennen.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

The only ways I've seen a melee beat out a ranged top has been by cheese or camp.

RankOneUganda1 votes

play a ranged top or idk pantheon.

Wafflessssss1 votes

If he builds damage you'll be able to kill him eventually as long as you don't fall too far behind. If he builds enough hp for you to not be able to burst him then you're shit outta luck.

Quepha1 votes

Pretty similar matchup, he does the demo after his outro, the actual laning starts around 7:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEiLCNCxXQs

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