Guess what guys, they're nerfing sunfire AGAIN!

kasfas·Jun 16, 2017·6 votes·404 views

Changing Bami's to do more damage to minions but have 80 less health.

On top of that sunfire now builds out of bami's AND a ruby crystal along its buildpath which makes it bad. Sure you would buy this item early, but sometimes you need other components, boots, potions and wards in order to lane.

So what the changes effectively are: make Bami's cinder worse by making it a bad component, and make sunfire worse by shitting on its build path.

Why is this happening? No meta top builds sunfire anyway, why would it get nerfed?

20 Comments

SalronJun 16, 20174 votes

Yeah lets just ignore the fact that you can get cinder for 900g instead of 1100g and that the cinder damage to nonchampions has been doubled from 50% bonus to 100% bonus

RalanrJun 16, 20172 votes

We're not. It's great for tank junglers. Top lane? Not so much.

kasfasJun 16, 20173 votes

Most tanks need the health more than the damage to minions, AND need to be able to duel the enemy laner.

If you get bami's + cloth and your opponent gets timat your opponent will do more damage to you and still have enough wave clear to push you in right through the bami's.

Plus tanks top don't need or ever really want price decreases, our items are cheap enough already, we need stronger items.

SalronJun 16, 20171 votes

you're getting the cinder earlier for less gold, which means you also get the damage from the burn sooner,

RalanrJun 16, 20171 votes

Burn damage means shit against champions and is too low to be good for farming in lane.

RalanrJun 16, 20172 votes

Seeing it now, I'd like to ask Riot to please stop giving tanks three component requiring items. It's really frustrating to actually build these (Omen annoys me the most because I still need 1100 after buying all three items).

I guess bami damage is better for junglers, but I don't see this being built it top with the current radius.

kasfasJun 16, 20172 votes

Oh yeah, omen build gives me epilepsy when I see it. (Not actually, but it's really bad) I don't know why that was the solution to building the item but it was definitely not a good one.

Bami's cinder I think will be better for jungler because they can get it earlier, but for top the item doesn't duel well anymore and doesn't give enough defensive stats to be an upgraded item. (From ruby crystal I mean) On top of that they decide, sunfire needs more health now, let's make it's buildpath absolutely hideous so we can make sure NOONE EVER buys it. I mean I haven't bought it since the update because it sucks so much, but I know some toplane tanks actually need it to be useful.

So now we're here, and top tank itemization is going to be worse than ever in at least 3 seasons.

Again its fine with me, I'm just going to poach off of support tank and juggernaut itemization instead because it doesn't suck.

Apologies for rudeness but sometimes you can't take idiotic changes lightly.

RalanrJun 16, 20173 votes

I could care less about sunfire's dueling power. Riot specifically wanted that part worse. I only care about it being a waveclear item in top. Which it does worse than its old incarnation.

It does worse in everything compared to its old incarnation. It should be better at waveclear at least.

kasfasJun 16, 20171 votes

I still hold that without duelling power it's not a worthwhile purchase on tanks who are played top (Except shen).

But even without that, the item became worse still with this terrible build path and incredibly small range. If it were a decent wave clear item it might be worth buying on some champions. None that I play, but some off meta champions and Shen.

ProtestantCaesarJun 16, 20171 votes

Shen's waveclear needed to be nerfed again.

Altonius AmakiirJun 16, 20171 votes

It's not really a nerf, its roughly 6% less max health after first back, but at the same time you have 200 more gold to spend(worth 75 hp). It might be more annoying of a build path, but it's in exchange for front-loading some of sunfire's usefulness.

Would also like to point out your title is misleading, they are not nerfing sunfire, they are making bami's cinder more of a damage oriented component than a health one. Also for the most part items with three components before combining to the final item are late game items(at least for tanks), so while it may be unusual, it shouldn't be too much of a problem so long as its your first or second item(which it probably should be if you're going to buy it at all). The main reason they are doing this appears to be to buff cinderhulk by giving bami's earlier clear power. At the same time they lowered bonus health and increased %bonus health so that cinderhulk was less viable(and abusable with changes) on non-tanks. For tanks despite the gold drop, late game you should typically have the same health as before with cinderhulk or even more if you built a near straight health build. So it's not because of the top-meta, but the jungle meta instead, top should be unaffected, and if it is I expect that will be clear through pbe and they will re-access their changes(because I doubt they want it to be affected).

kasfasJun 16, 20171 votes

I understand the changes to the jungle, because even jungle tanks were coming top (sejuani anyone) because of how hard it is or them to jungle.

However the stat decreaee and item build path are an effective nerf overall. Having 200 more gold in my pocket doesn't help when I can't fight my enemy laner due to lack of stats. Sure I can buy health pots or a cloth armour if I have the gold for it, but that also fills my inventory making it harder to complete the item.

I would rather spend that gold and get that health to be able to have stats that help me fight my opponent.

Sunfire is still not a good item either because of its low range and lack of usefulness aside from wave clear which most tanks have already.

So it might be a cinderhulk buff, but it's definitely a sunfire nerf.

Altonius AmakiirJun 16, 20171 votes

I would still say it isn't a nerf to sunfire because no one backs just to buy bami's at the moment, and no one backs when they have exactly enough gold to buy something. Currently you wouldn't back as soon as you got 1100 gold, instead you might back when you have 1300, like an adc would, or 1400 if you wanted boots and bami's. With the changes you would be getting bami's for 900 and have 400-500 gold left over. If the health is a problem to you, you then buy a ruby crystal too. If not, then you took the trade-off of more waveclear for less tankiness, which is a fair trade-off. As for it's lack of usefulness besides waveclear, I believe that is the intent. It seems to be for tanks that don't have good wave clear early(tanks with low mana pool who can't trade and have mana for clear), or for tanks that want the extra damage for team-fights(which might just barely be worth on some champs). It's obviously questionable whether it meets these needs or not when fully built(personally I think it could stand to get 1-3 more damage at all levels, or a general price decrease due to nicher item), but with that being the intent these changes are fair.

kasfasJun 16, 20171 votes

Well, you don't back before you have enough gold for an item unless you're getting shat on in lane and can't afford to stay.

People were likely to back with about 1100-1400 gold which is more than enough for bami's, old or new. But now you have more gold but fewer stats from those early backs when you actually need the item most.

When playing in a rough matchup you can back earlier, but also need to back more often because you lack that 80 health to survive trades. And don't tell me 80 health isn't worth it early game, because if 50 health is worth 5 mastery points then 80 health is worth it here.

Altonius AmakiirJun 16, 20171 votes

I'm starting to think you aren't reading my posts... I'm not saying the lost health isn't significant(as I said it would roughly be 6% less and a change of 5% is sgnificant), I'm saying you have the gold to make up for the lost stats since bami's also costs less.

Current patch 1500 gold: bami+boots+100 gold left over. Pbe 1500 gold: bami+ruby crystal+boots. But pbe player gets 70 more health, and 50% more damage to minions with bami's(gold value of health: 186, gold value of bami's passive buff*: 166 gold, for a total gold value of 352) which is worth more than the leftover 100 gold you would currently have. So if you wait till you have enough gold to buy a ruby crystal and a bami's cinder(without sacrificing the things you already wanted to buy, like boots in my example), you end up with a higher gold value item build.

*Current bami's health value is 280= 746.66 gold value(based off ruby crystal), total price is 1100 gold, passive value is then 1100-746.66 = 353.33 gold. Passive value was doubled against minons for pbe, but not champions, so 50% increase in value of passive. New passive value is 530 gold. Pbe bami's health value is 200= 533.33 gold(based off ruby crystal), total price is 900 gold, passive value is then 900 - 533.33 = 366.66 gold. But new passive compared to old passive is: 533.33 - 366.66 = 166.66 gold value increase that isn't in the price already.

kasfasJun 16, 20171 votes

Alright, I'll give that to you. Bami's passive is worth more.

The changes don't make sunfire better, and having that reduced health on bami's makes it worse at dealing with enemy laners. Granted still that with the extra gold you can buy an additional 150hp on a separate item which does help with the enemy laner, yet you could build a giants belt instead and get more health for less gold.

The tanks that tend to toplane already have sufficient wave clear built in unless you're playing Shen, which means the passive buff doesn't do enough to be worth that 80 hp. Think about all the tanks that built sunfire before that are now or a few patches ago were guttered because of how much they relied on the item doing damage to champions.

And I don't like the fact that the item needs a ruby crystal introduced into its build, and how ruby crystal seems to be built into too many major comleted items now. If there were another health item they could have build into it I think it would be a fine change. I still wouldn't buy it because the passive sucks but it wouldn't be a bad item overall.

QuephaJun 16, 20171 votes

If the final sunfire price is the same, then that's an objectively better build path. If you don't have room for the ruby crystal then you're waiting on 1000 gold just like you are now. If you DO have room (and you probably do because sunfire is generally built first or second) then you get some extra health to tide you over without slowing down your build. Alternatively, you can build a ruby crystal instead of a chain vest and just sit on gold if armor is useless in the current matchup (rumble or swain lane)