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What the hell on this world is wrong with Vayne????

WolfChases··41 votes·3,877 views

Even as an ADC main, yes I QQ about Vayne because she's definitely not fair comparing to other ADC's. Please, do not tell me "But her early game is weak". No, it is NOT because she compensates that AA reliability with self peel and mobility, it's not all about damage. Jinx MissFortune Tristana and Twitch all have weaker and riskier early game than Vayne and they are A LOT less safe than her even late except maybe Tristana but it's situational because if he jump's away it means she's has to save her ass while Vayne is tumbling all around the map for bonus damage and outplay which basically goes to her full advantage. She's supposed to be strong against tanks, but why isn't there any other ADC that's in pair with her in 1v1 or 2v2 scenarios if equally fed? Zed? Fed Zed? Nwm, by the time you get in range to ult her you will chunked down to 50% hp in 2 auto attacks and when you ult her she will stealth and finish you off with condemn or 3rd autoattack outhealing your damage.

Honestly I think every champ should have strengths and weaknesses, if she's cool and strong against tanks, she should not be that strong against squishies, let's be real, she can kill equally fed enemy adc in 3-4 AA's in less than 2 seconds lol...Sometimes I think she's stronger against Squishies than against Tanks.

I expect some wise advices like -"Play her and learn how to counter her" I'll answer you immediately:

  1. I do play her quite often because I main ADC
  2. She doesn't have a real counter apart from Caitlyn who counters her only 1st few levels, but she's going to get outscaled hard after Vayne gets Bork.
  3. The only way to win against a fed Vayne late game is if her team fed you so she's the only threat out there, otherwise if her team is not that behind, you are in straight disadvantage.

102 Comments

Bronzoid28 votes

Vayne is by far the most broken adc right now

ilt5 votes

by far

Stella Ex Amore6 votes

Every time I am matched against a Vayne I cringe.

"Looks like we're playing a Vayne Game."

WolfChases3 votes

Exactly this ^

brad4 votes

shes the only adc that can duel people like zed and rengar and people dont like that

MLDzXnRRR5 votes

[{quoted}](name=hi im bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FsTHkbtH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-15T17:34:36.585+0000)

shes the only adc that can duel people like zed and rengar and people dont like that

Draven and Kog can 2 shot Vayne or Zed or anyone else. Vayne needs at least 3 attacks to kill you

WolfChases10 votes

You can't compare Vayne with Draven or Kog'Maw. Draven and Kog are easy targets due to their low mobility and utility, if you want to play Draven or Kog your team has to pick ''Protect the carry'' teamcomp. Draven is strong but Vayne is gonna kill him before he catches his 2nd axe lol.... (Talking about equally fed ADC's)

MLDzXnRRR3 votes

{quoted}

You can't compare Vayne with Draven or Kog'Maw. Draven and Kog are easy targets due to their low mobility and utility, if you want to play Draven or Kog your team has to pick ''Protect the carry'' teamcomp. Draven is strong but Vayne is gonna kill him before he catches his 2nd axe lol.... (Talking about equally fed ADC's)

??? Draven crits do more dmg - how can she kill him? Maybe waiting in the bush and cheesing with invisibility and condemn into wall... There was one time in the LCS where Doublelift tried to "outplay" the enemy Lucian. 1 Q + auto and Vayne had to flash away from the enemy. Even equally fed her dmg is trash unless she is playing vs tanks. She is annoying, but people don't focus her, don't buy pinks, don't know what exhaust is.

WolfChases4 votes

"Draven crits" -.- Vayne also Crits and noone can be sure that your 1st auto will be a crit tho. Just imagine that Vayne has Shiv, it's a guaranteed crit on 1st auto. I am repeating...full build Vayne > Full build Draven because of the nature of her kit, not in the terms of Damage.

MLDzXnRRR3 votes

{quoted}

"Draven crits" -.- Vayne also Crits and noone can be sure that your 1st auto will be a crit tho. Just imagine that Vayne has Shiv, it's a guaranteed crit on 1st auto. I am repeating...full build Vayne > Full build Draven because of the nature of her kit, not in the terms of Damage.

Vayne manages to kill people, because she does some dmg for free (they are stunned, she is invisible, hides in a bush, etc). If the enemy is not retarded, she is not op. She has great dmg vs people with armor and hp, her dmg vs squishies is not high at all. If you are allowing to be cheesed by Vayne every time maybe the problem is not in her kit, but in you.

WolfChases8 votes

"Her damage vs squishies is not high at all''

I'll end it there.

Myrddin2 votes

{quoted}

"Draven crits" -.- Vayne also Crits and noone can be sure that your 1st auto will be a crit tho. Just imagine that Vayne has Shiv, it's a guaranteed crit on 1st auto. I am repeating...full build Vayne > Full build Draven because of the nature of her kit, not in the terms of Damage.

but if they 1v1 draven 1 shots her... tumble around all you like

he crushes her in laning phase and continues to do so

WolfChases1 votes

Too bad you are not on EUNE so we can go custom. I would go Vayne, you go Draven. Farm till the full build and than duel, just to convince you that you are wrong.

Myrddin1 votes

{quoted}

Too bad you are not on EUNE so we can go custom. I would go Vayne, you go Draven. Farm till the full build and than duel, just to convince you that you are wrong.

http://www.championselect.net/champions/vayne

everyone is wrong, you're right.

Risurin2 votes

{quoted}

You can't compare Vayne with Draven or Kog'Maw. Draven and Kog are easy targets due to their low mobility and utility, if you want to play Draven or Kog your team has to pick ''Protect the carry'' teamcomp. Draven is strong but Vayne is gonna kill him before he catches his 2nd axe lol.... (Talking about equally fed ADC's)

except you pick draven for his early/mid game spike and the snowballing. Draven can destroy vayne during laneing phase, and transition that to a win for his team. really late game, well one is an hyper carry, the other doesnt get a passive anymore lol.

Corrupto1232 votes

{quoted}

You can't compare Vayne with Draven or Kog'Maw. Draven and Kog are easy targets due to their low mobility and utility, if you want to play Draven or Kog your team has to pick ''Protect the carry'' teamcomp. Draven is strong but Vayne is gonna kill him before he catches his 2nd axe lol.... (Talking about equally fed ADC's)

UTILITY!!!???

VAYNE LITERALLY HAS ONE 'utility' and that is her knockback. She has low mobility. Tumble won't count since it barely is a gapclose and you need to attack once for it's cooldown. And no, she doesn't assasinate people. SHE NEEDS ATLEAST 3 attacks to kill someone. Meanwhile Draven can oneshot people. I don't see people complaining about him?

WolfChases1 votes

You are literally the only one here defending her :'D

Dode get real, utility isn't just her knockback, it's her mobility and safety, her damn slippery, she's a fucking ninja among ADC's.

MasterOfTheOrder2 votes

{quoted}

You are literally the only one here defending her :'D

Dode get real, utility isn't just her knockback, it's her mobility and safety, her damn slippery, she's a fucking ninja among ADC's.

Are you sure you're not talking about Kalista?

WolfChases10 votes

Getting assassinated by an assassin is not as painful as getting literally assassinated by an ADC who's supposed to be a sustained damage dealer, not a nuclear bomb.

brad3 votes

{quoted}

Getting assassinated is not as painful as getting literally assassinated

?????????????

WolfChases5 votes

What ain't clear there? When I get killed by an assassin in a split second i care less than when I get killed in 3 damn autos by Vayne which should not happen considering that a non caster ADC should not burst you down that fast.

brad2 votes

{quoted}

What ain't clear there? When I get killed by an assassin in a split second i care less than when I get killed in 3 damn autos by Vayne which should not happen considering that a non caster ADC should not burst you down that fast.

getting assassinated isnt as painful as getting literally assassinated???? do you know what you are saying????????????

WolfChases5 votes

Getting assassinated by a champ who's supposed to assassinate you

Getting assassinated by a champ who's not supposed to assassinate you

See the difference?

Risurin2 votes

{quoted}

Getting assassinated by a champ who's supposed to assassinate you

Getting assassinated by a champ who's not supposed to assassinate you

See the difference?

vayne's secondary role is assassin :^)

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Riot's official stance before the role thing came out is that Vayne was a duelist, not an assassin. The assassin Hybrid is supposed to be Quinn.

That's more a limitation of their role designations than anything.

Risurin2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FsTHkbtH,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-16T02:17:32.993+0000)

Riot's official stance before the role thing came out is that Vayne was a duelist, not an assassin. The assassin Hybrid is supposed to be Quinn.

That's more a limitation of their role designations than anything.

the role thing are nothing recent either.

also, duelist win most 1v1s. thats as far as her assassination can go. she doesnt really goes into a team to kill a squishy (i mean we all know what happen when a vayne tumble into 5 champions. vaynespotted :P) and get out like a zed or a leblanc. thats why its only a secondary role. She can 1v1 a lot of champions, but she doesnt one shot 100-0 them like someone in this thread is trying to make it sound like.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

I realize what OP is trying to claim. My point was that the secondary role is really more of a misnomer on her and just serves to muddy the waters of debate.

Risurin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FsTHkbtH,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-16T03:06:50.959+0000)

I realize what OP is trying to claim. My point was that the secondary role is really more of a misnomer on her and just serves to muddy the waters of debate.

oh i was just trying to clarify thigns. in the end i think you are right. thats why we get stuff like teemo and syndra as secondary support for instance. they arent really your typical support xD.

Btw tell your mom Phreak i like her/his work in casting lcs with puns! oh and good luck against fnatic tomorow! (that reply was really funny!)

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Btw tell your mom Phreak i like her/his work in casting lcs with puns! oh and good luck against fnatic tomorow! (that reply was really funny!)

I try.

Risurin1 votes

{quoted}

What ain't clear there? When I get killed by an assassin in a split second i care less than when I get killed in 3 damn autos by Vayne which should not happen considering that a non caster ADC should not burst you down that fast.

if vayne kills you in literally 3 autos, you had about no hp and was out of position to begin with.

WolfChases2 votes

Actually I was Lucian with item 3031 item 3087 item 3006 item 3035 and item 3134 while Vayne had item 3153 item 3046 item 3035 and item 3006.

I opened on her with my Q than she Ulted > Stealthed > Borked > and I was literally unable to fight back lol, wasn't even condemned to a wall. Literally 3,5 autos considering that I was left on ~100hp before her 4th AA so I count it as 3,5 AA's an not 4 AA's.

Troy2426214 votes

Her early game is weak. She's just not vulnerable.

Meeks0114 votes

Every fucking ADC's early game is weak, people just only say it for Vayne.

MasterOfTheOrder4 votes

She's only "broken" when she's fed. Even when fed, she isn't invincible. She's incredibly squishy, and VERY item reliant. Shut her down early game, and proceed to win lane/game. I know this'll get down voted into oblivion, but honestly Vayne is fine. The real issue here are the constant nerfs to other carries. The upcoming marksman rework will possibly fix this.

NvrGivUp3 votes

ONE PERSON OUT OF ALL THESE POSTS ABOUT VAYNE BEING FINE MENTIONED OTHER CARRIES GETTING NERFED! YOU JUST MADE MY DAY! THANK YOU!

Valderis Vandala3 votes

How the hell are you going to make something strong against tanks but not also strong against squishies?

Rebonack15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valderis Vandala,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FsTHkbtH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-15T18:36:44.608+0000)

How the hell are you going to make something strong against tanks but not also strong against squishies?

You could start by removing the flat true damage on her Silver Bolts. Then replace the bonus AD on her Ult with some kind of amp to her %HP true damage.

Vayne's kit, as set up, is designed to assassinate soft targets while also being able to burn down hard ones.

Valderis Vandala3 votes

%HP true damage hits everyone equally hard, so squishies are still going to die to it just as hard as tanks.

And because she will still deal other damage besides that she's still going to kill squishies before she kills tanks.

So I'll ask again: How are you going to make something strong against tanks but not also strong against squishies?

Stereo Dreamer1 votes

Could possibly have a different scaling on the flat and %hp as well that depends on the targets maximum health.

If someone like Sona is being hit, then the flat damage would be exceptionally marginal and the %HP would only hit for a smaller amount (this would take annoying coding and algorithms however, so making something like this only apply to flat damage would be more realistic), but if hitting someone like Mundo, then the flat increases exponentially [as well as % if possible].

In my opinion however, Vayne is the perfect embodiment of an ADC. Small self-peel, outplay potential for both sides, kiting, positioning, etc.

Because she has all this, it seems to just be overloaded because we haven't found a set definition for ADC as a standard, and make other Marksmen fulfill niche subroles in a game as a ADC rather than just as a pure ADC. Examples being like: Kog for poke, but losing mobility. Ashe for kiting and utility, but also losing mobility, still retaining slight self peel. They don't have everything because they gain strength in other field greatly whereas Vayne is acceptable in all fields (other than utility of course). This makes her seem like she just has too much in her kit to deal with and we automatically try and nerf her damage (we should nerf it on squishies, I agree) because it's almost a Thresh like situation. She can deal with a myriad of situations that scale directly with how well versed the player is with that champion. I would consider this healthy if not for the instagib on squishies who might need a little more time to finish a real duel with her to outplay or not be flash killed in 3 autos by an ADC that may or may not even be to far ahead to do that reliably.

Valderis Vandala2 votes

The standard for ADC is Auto Attack Damage, everything else is flavor.

But I agree, Vayne is I think the most specialized ADC we currently have, completely focused on damage and chasing and nothing else. Which means she can easy punish you for mistakes and getting away is not much of an option.

Because of all the damage buffs and movement speed she gets she is also given more freedom in item choices, she doesn't have to load up on damage and crit-chance the way other ADC do and isn't reliant on slows. And because of her gap closer isn't reliant on CC to get to people. That probably makes her more fun to play as (I wouldn't know I have played her myself) so you see her a lot, she is also very easy to play if you look at her kit, you have a dash and a poke and that's all you have to worry about.

I don't know about lowering her damage though, that will limit her item choices the same way other ADC's are limited. I'd rather see this kind of thing more with other characters, getting good self buffs/stats that allows a character to perform their role naturally without the need for items gives a player a lot more freedom in item builds. On the other hand it also allows for hyper focused builds that can feel almost unfair to play against. XD

Rebonack3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valderis Vandala,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FsTHkbtH,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-08-15T18:51:55.724+0000)

%HP true damage hits everyone equally hard, so squishies are still going to die to it just as hard as tanks.

And because she will still deal other damage besides that she's still going to kill squishies before she kills tanks.

So I'll ask again: How are you going to make something strong against tanks but not also strong against squishies?

Yes, %HP True damage deals damage to all targets equally. But literally everything else in her kit deals more damage to soft targets than it does to hard.

If Vayne's physical and flat damage were toned down while upping her %HP damage, her current effectiveness against hard targets could be maintained while reducing her damage against soft ones. This is super-simple stuff.

The only way you could pull off what you're describing is if you used weird mechanics like gaining bonus damage based on the target's bonus HP/resist. Useless against glassy folks, great against Tanks. But in the end, Vayne isn't JUST a tank-buster. She needs to be able to do something against squishes as well. Maybe just not as much.

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

As pure theory-but-probably-wont-happen, the answer is already in league - its found in Trundle and Veigar. Now, the numbers arent very accurate, just ballpark figures for my examples:

  1. Veigar's ult does damage based on the enemy's AP - you can implement a similar mechanism based on the enemy's armor, allowing her autos to do X% damage based on the enemys armor when she ults. For example, we say her autos while ulted can do 50% of the target's armor as bonus damage - this makes up for losing the AD scaling on her abilities and crit for losing the flat 70AD, but gives her tank shredding power without giving her overwhelming strength against squishies.
  2. Or you can give her an ult like Trundle, where she needs to target an enemy, gaining %AD based on the armor of her opponent. If we say she can steal 30% of the enemy's armor and converts it to AD, she isnt as overpowering in 1v1s against ADCs, but still retains a lot of her current teamfight prowess if she can successfully ult a tank.
Solari Fortune3 votes

For me, I hate her passive the most. NO ADC can escape her without blowing summs and every tool they have that involves a gap closer to a slow. Even then she just catches up in a second because her tumble and her Ult speed

yukonl2 votes

If this was Season 3 - 4 everyone would be laughing at this post. Oh how times have changed.

CasterGilgamesh3 votes

because riot nerfed every other adc she is one of the few adcs to escape the nerfing holocaust besides maybe corkie in that time frame plus all the champions that could counter her besides adc talking about assassins were nerfed as well

Pale Pirate1 votes

MissFortune Tristana Jinx and Twitch all have weaker and riskier early game than Vayne .

She can 1 v 1 a fed Zed.

She doesn't have a real counter apart from Caitlyn

The only way to win against a fed Vayne late game is if her team fed you so she's the only threat out there.

Found some of your problems. First of all, vayne has the biggest win rate drop in the first 25 minutes in the game out off all ADCs. You have to abuse her early game instead of overestimating her power or saying that its impossible, and you can abuse her early game. Her E can has a very long cooldown and it can only help her if you are trying to kill her 2 vs 2. Killing her is not the only way to shut her down.

A fed zed can of course 1 v 1 her ( as he can 1 v 1 everyone in the game if he is fed ). If you have trouble diving her, use a pink or a hextech trinket, killing her becomes much easier.

She has plenty counters, and out of all of them, unless you are diamond+ picking caitlyn is horrible. Caitlyn vs Vayne is a just skill matchup with better chances for cait. If you want to shut her down, pick Draven or Ashe .

You shouldn't overestimate her power and you should try to abuse her weakness while it lasts. A vayne who is better than you can still beat you in lane, unfortunately. Remember that vayne sacrifices a lot of range for her power. A champion who can quickly burst her down if given the opportunity is the best to fight her, which is why a lot of adc mains struggle vs her. Preferably a ranged assassin like Leblanc , or a cc assassin like Fizz .

WolfChases5 votes

''She sacrifices a lot of her range for her power" Duuuude get real.

Look at this:

Ashe range - 600 Graves range -525 Twitch range - 550 MissFortune range - 550 Draven range - 550 Corki range - 550 Lucian range - 500 Varus range - 575 Caitlyn range - 650 Sivir range - 500

Tristana KogMaw do not count since their range scales of specific abilities, Kalista because of constant jumps and Jinx because of Switcheroo!(Fishbones) extended rocket's range but even her normal range is 525 (Less than Vayne's 550) ;)

As you can see, pretty much every single adc in this game has the same range as Vayne while Lucian, Graves, Sivir and (Jinx) have even less than Vayne who has 550.

Your point is invalid, she doesn't need that much power due to her "Low" range because only Caitlyn, Varus and Ashe are out ranging her and they are still less powerful than her.

Also, take in consideration mobility of the Night Hunter, Tumble and Final Hour because she easily outruns you which also compensates for her range. What's the point of having 25 more range if you are Varus or 50 more if you are Ashe if she's faster than you because of her passive and small gap closer???

Do not talk about range please because 70% of ADCs have the same range as Vayne.

Risurin3 votes

Maybe this will help you understand it. Good thing i can still link it to all the people whom are not understanding what vayne having low range mean :P

One thing people often outlook, is when people say champion like vayne have low range, they dont purely mean their auto range. Just take the time to consider why people would say such a thing about a champion? I will help you with the range thing :

Ashe W is 1200 range Graves Q is 950 range Ezreal Q is 1150 range Lucian Q hit up to 1100 range Corki Q is 850 range

Their threatening ranges are far higher then vayne autos, and she only has auto to fight those (and no, people dont use the high mana cost high CD ability to poke vs these actual poke abilities). Thats why she is considered low range.

tl:dr : Vayne range where she can deal damage and be a threat is lower then about everyone in the bot lane (i dont even mention supports in that quote lol), because she doesn't have a ranged poke ability early like most adc, hence low range.

WolfChases3 votes

And than you realize that:

Ashe Q has to be stacked up before it's actually useful. Graves Q Is easy to predict and dodge unless he's in front of your face and even if he hit's you from the distance it doesn't deals that much damage due to how the spell works (read the tool tip) Ezreal Q doesn't go through minions and you can play around it and it's also possible to dodge it with Vayne's tumble. Lucian Q is extended only when it passes through something before it hit's you. Corki Q is a slow skill shoot with a delay and mark on the ground where it's gonna land = easy for Vayne to dodge.

It's like saying...Omg Blitzcrank is not melee his Q has range :O .....

Pale Pirate2 votes

I am 100% real. I wasn't talking about her autoattack range. Every other single ADC in the game either has a spell to damage opponents from far away or a strong mobility spell, or both. Vayne is the only ADC who doesn't. She allows you to jump in her face or she will never be able to autoattack you.

Yeah, in exchange for this she is able to react when you reach her face, unlike other adcs, with invisibility e.t.c. Just use your red trinket before she presses Q and she will QQ.

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