Riot please don't buff Zed.

WolfChases·Aug 9, 2015·91 votes·18,114 views

He is fine at this state, not OP and not weak, he is just perfect and if you buff him, he will be pick or ban again > nerfed to the ground.

104 Comments

Mecha MaIphiteAug 10, 201556 votes

zed is in dire need of buffs

his passive shud be 50% hp tru dmg

Spizzle9000Aug 10, 201534 votes

{quoted}

zed is in dire need of buffs

his passive shud be 50% hp tru dmg

They should hire you at Riot.

Mecha MaIphiteAug 10, 20156 votes

they should

im sure i would fit very well into their current balance team

MohawkBirdAug 10, 201527 votes

CertainlyT's assistant.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 201548 votes

I didn't do these change, but if Juggernauts release on the strong side, Zed's going to need the buffs. Those guys just wreck him.

Honestly, I don't know if there's anything sadder for Zed than being the Villain.

Edit: this was a bad joke on my part. Zed getting buffs has nothing to do with Juggernauts. He should be weak against Juggernauts. He should be strong against squishies. And I should re-read posts before pressing Save so that I don't give people the wrong impression as to why he (or any other character) might be getting changes.

HellioningAug 10, 201532 votes

...Yes. Yes, they should wreck him. That is literally their job description. Zed is an assassin. He is supposed to do well against a squishy target that deals high damage but dies easily. He is supposed to be bad against people who don't die to one combo.

So. Um.

I don't know how to react to this response apart from 'That's good'?

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 201518 votes

That's pretty much the expected response. Sorry if I gave a different impression.

HellioningAug 10, 20159 votes

I'm just not sure what you're trying to say here. 'Zed will need buffs if his counters become popular in order to let him still see play?' 'Zed needs buffs in order to let him beat his counters?' 'Counterpick Zed with Garen'?

I am so confused.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 201516 votes

At this point, me too.

But really, if Zed needs buffs, it's because Zed needs buffs; not any other reason.

Danyul TargaryenAug 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

At this point, me too.

But really, if Zed needs buffs, it's because Zed needs buffs; not any other reason.

no answer i seee

333lomAug 10, 20159 votes

Well if the Juggernauts are coming, and Assassins are staying approximately the same, why are the mages being nerfed? ;-; EDIT: meh I'm probably mistaking...

JoliAug 10, 20154 votes

In my opinion, mages were buffed quite heavily with the AP item changes recently. I can build a variety of items with more components, making it easier for me to build a full item (instead of waiting for that expensive 1600 NLR)

333lomAug 10, 20152 votes

That's true, it's much easier to buy NLR now, though it gives.. 60 ap instead of the former 80? I'm really wondering how the items for the mages changed power-wise, since the two other 120 AP items got nerfed to give only 100 due to the Cap being buffed. Am I the only mage player that doesn't necessarily buy Rabadon each game? I'm certain only for Rylai's that it's effect has been buffed (the slow is epic now), but I don't know for others. So, is their build buffed ap wise only if they include Rabadon in the build?

CosnirakAug 10, 20153 votes

They buffed the items that were too weak and improved QoL a bit. In some cases they moved the power around from one place to another. But there was very little if any straight buffing. The big problem is they didn't make mana better for anyone and they didn't improve the laning phase. Zed crushes mana mages in lane and that's the real problem that wasn't fixed at all.

Schlachsahne76Aug 10, 20151 votes

Do you know who is an much better assasin than Zed? Ahri Katarina Zed is super ult reliant and does almost no damage against tanks. He can mybe one shot the adc, but only with ult and when the adc is alone. Just group against Zed his teamfighting is bad.

HellioningAug 10, 20159 votes

What does this have anything to do with...anything related to this thread? Did you just feel the need to defend Zed against my perceived attacks?

AnonagonAug 10, 20156 votes

as a rioter you of all people should know that "just counterpick them" isn't a way to justify a champion as weak

ModAcademy KaynAug 10, 20152 votes

He's not saying "Pick Garen beat Zed". He's clarifying that with new champions that are A. Tanky and B. Dealing Damage, Zed might need a tad help against them.

You know how the Tank Meta almost destroyed Zed, before the nerf to his ult? Well imagine how these guys might treat him.

PokladnicaZlaAug 10, 20156 votes

Zed should lose to those kind of champions,not kill him.Assassins as a class exist to kill ADCs& the enemy midlaner (and support on occasion),if they are able to defeat tanks&fighters without breaking a sweat,well then we have a problem.

NvrGivUpAug 10, 20151 votes

If these types of champions beat assassins; assassins might as well not be played then. Just play tanky bruisers with a jungler and an ADC with their support.

PokladnicaZlaAug 10, 20151 votes

Never said assassins should lose,jsut that shouldn't be able to eaasily defeat those kind of champions,like Zed did in the begining of the season to tanks.Killing everything and everyone.

NvrGivUpAug 10, 20151 votes

Like you said; it shouldn't be easy. But I was referring to what Light2401 said. "Zed might need a tad help against them." If this next patch makes tanks and bruisers a bit stronger, assassins might get outclassed if they don't get a little bit of help.

PokladnicaZlaAug 10, 20151 votes

Flawed logic if bruisers and assassins get buffed,mages won't see much play.AGAIN

NvrGivUpAug 11, 20151 votes

That's "meta" for you; things get buffed and nerfed.

PokladnicaZlaAug 11, 20152 votes

It seems like assassins can be broken as long as RIOT is willing to leave them as that,but mages get nerfed immediately.Nearly the whole mage class was fucked by the mana regen ˝changes˝,I don't really remember any compensation buffs.

ModAcademy KaynAug 10, 20153 votes

You're assuming a .5 second delay is going to kill a tanky champ. No, its not. It's going to give Zed a bit more breathing room then he had.

PokladnicaZlaAug 10, 20154 votes

You are missing the point.If they buff zed because he needs more breathing room against champion who are supposed to counter him,they are also buffing him against champion he alredy wrecks in lane.

On the other hand,they buffed Zed to have it easier against champion that could defeat him,while mages that he wrecks,didn't recive any changes to have more_ breathing room_ against him.They buffed a champion who can deal with his counters easier,so why not do the same with mages?Because they aren't flashy?

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 20159 votes

That's not what I'm saying, though what I said could be interpreted as that >.<

sp441Aug 10, 20159 votes

Is that a comment on his unwillingness at finding himself in an antagonist role when all he wanted to do was break petty taboo and bring a new way to expand body and mind to mankind, or is it just that he really doesn't like getting smacked in the face for true damage with a giant paddle that Garen confuses for a sword?

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 201516 votes

I wish I was deep enough for it to be the former, I really do.

UltîmaAug 10, 20153 votes

We understand that saturating the champion pool with Zed counters is likely to make him less strong, however the thing is that Zed is balanced against squishy targets - buffing him any further would make him totally out of control and back in the perma pick/ban status mid-lane. It's very unlikely that the juggernauts will warp the current meta of that position, yet it is where these buffs will have the most impact. Please reconsider those changes before releasing the reworks to see how they will actually affect him.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 201512 votes

The juggernaut reworks aren't at all being released to help counter Zed. My apologies if that's the impression I gave.

As an assassin, Zed should be strong against squishy targets. They should have a fair chance to defend themselves (especially early in the game), but the upper hand should probably be his.

Danyul TargaryenAug 10, 20156 votes

{quoted}

The juggernaut reworks aren't at all being released to help counter Zed. My apologies if that's the impression I gave.

As an assassin, Zed should be strong against squishy targets. They should have a fair chance to defend themselves (especially early in the game), but the upper hand should probably be his.

If the upper hand should be zeds over them then why are they trying to give zed the upper hand against juggernauts

Lao Fu the TigerAug 10, 20153 votes

Zed got rekt by fighters when his return time was instant. He simply couldn't lay down enough damage to kill them.

His damage hasn't been touched here.

UltîmaAug 10, 20152 votes

Thanks for clearing that up Repertoir - but that brings me to another question - Zed is currently seen as a very efficient assassin who can ult on a target, 100-0 them and shadow away with actually little possible counterplay from the target. He has a good laning, phenomenal wave-clear, and a lot of kill potential. Has he been under performing in a specific area?

Lao Fu the TigerAug 10, 20154 votes

item 3157 item 3140

Counter building is part of counter play. These nullify his ultimate and make it a nightmare for a Zed to ult a target with either item.

"I shouldn't be forced to rush hourglass; muh...muh mana re--"

Stop.

You won't necessarily have many regen to poke or harass with. You're right. It's a tradeoff. But Zed is DESIGNED to be more powerful than most mages at level 6. His laning and roaming is designed to be strong. So, no, you may not get to rush the classic Morellonomicon start. You may have to build a QSS before you finish your Phantom Dancer.

"These items are money h----"

No, they're not money sinks if they can make a champion's main damaging ability absolutely useless on you.

The problem most players have is mentally taking themselves out of lane and thinking big picture. Yes, a QSS makes you a weaker ADC than your lane opponent. Are you holistically weaker in the long run? No; you're now Zed-proof.

UltîmaAug 10, 20151 votes

I don't really understand why you downvoted my question, since I only asked Repertoire the reasoning behind the Zed buffs since he's in a good state.

Expecting all participants in a game to build zhonyas or QSS is a bad way to say that a character has meaningful counterplay, especially since in zhonya's case it more or less counters every skill, active, and summoner spells in the game.

Lao Fu the TigerAug 10, 20152 votes

I didn't actually down vote it, but I can bump it back to 1 for you. o.o

Yes, it does counter every skill in the game, but most champions aren't as entirely dependent on their ultimate as Zed. Those that are have either shorter cooldowns (Akali, Katarina) or have decent power without the ult and can stall/contribute without being nearly entirely useless (Veigar).

Zed's basic ability scaling is pretty mediocre at best; 100% bonus AD scaling on a single target is nothing compared to, say, Talon's 140% or Yasuo's 100% total AD. Yes, his base damage makes clearing waves, but his scaling is....average. He's safe, though.

As for him underperforming, I think the buff is targetted specifically towards his laning; leaving a whole second before returning to shadow makes him ulting in the early game very dangerous; for an early/mid game carry, that's not good. However, this probably will have very little effect on his teamfighting.

DanofDemaciaAug 10, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I didn't do these change, but if Juggernauts release on the strong side, Zed's going to need the buffs. Those guys just wreck him.

Honestly, I don't know if there's anything sadder for Zed than being the Villain.

what about the people he already wrecks? he was never strong against them to begin he is strong against immobile skillshot mages wich he already stomps. This isnt gonna make his time against them easier its gonna make the people he already counters just have a harder time

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 201515 votes

Aren't the proposed buffs to Zed to reduce the blink-back time on R with rank? This seems like a pretty sound approach to me, tbh. .75 and .5 seconds are long enough in the early and mid-game for a single defender to hit some cc on him when he comes in, and though .25 seconds is pretty short, there should be teammates around to help then.

At the end of the day, Zed is probably supposed to be pretty strong against immobile skillshot mages, similar to how juggernauts are supposed to be strong against him.

Danyul TargaryenAug 10, 20156 votes

At the end of the day, Zed is probably supposed to be pretty strong against immobile skillshot mages, similar to how juggernauts are supposed to be strong against him.

You contradicted everything u said previiously with that above^. If those type of champions are supposed to be strong against him why would u help him in that match up?. And if the answer is so hes not bullied so hard then the same can be said for zed vs immobile mages. And play lux and zyra against a zed and tell me me how much time u have to land your snares and tell me how .5 seconds is enough

Remlap1223Aug 10, 20152 votes

I'm a little concerned for Zed being rebuffed back, because the whole reason that his ultimate was so toxic was because Zed could faceroll all of his abilities to max out the detonation damage, and then pop back to safety in less than a second, guaranteeing a dead target with little risk to Zed. Zed's already mobile enough as is. If he gets caught out by Garen, he deserves to get spinnedtowinned to death.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 9, 201510 votes

Especially when armor is being nerfed.

Spizzle9000Aug 9, 20157 votes

Meh, I guess I see what you mean, but personally I find the meta full of cc and devourer junglers a true pain in the ass whenever I use Zed.

It's probably because I'm bad with him or something, but, I doubt this buff will make him pick or ban. It's just a .5 second delay on returning to his ult's shadow, right?

WolfChasesAug 10, 20154 votes

Yes that's the buff. Honestly it's nothing BIG but that will draw back the attention of a players who played him before the 1 sec nerf and I really don't want to see him literally unviable because when champion is constantly banned I consider him unviable because I can't play it.

As for Devourer...I would not be happy if Riot balances the game around it because Devourer won't be here forever. We all know how boken and impossible to balance devourer is. If you nerf devourer no one uses it, if you buff it, 5 weak/balanced champions that benefots from devourer are automatically becoming broken as fuck.

Problems with Devourer:

30 stacks is too much and it makes Players to farm all day long = no ganks.
If there are less than 30 stacks, power spike would happen to early = retarded and broken.
At 20 + stack Devourer champions are literally outshining every other jungle type champions which makes JNG champ pool really poor. I am not talking about LCS and shit...I doubt anyone of you would say that Stacked Warwick or Master YI are a joke....don't even want to talk about Shyvana.
Devourer meta literally kills jungle diversity. The only non Devourer junglers that are worth to have in team atm are Elise, Diana and really, really good Lee Sin, other than that you are going to get rekt because Devourers are greedy, they will counter jungle the shit out of you if you are tank, they know you cant kill them, by counterjungling, they will get their stacks faster leaving you without farm and gold.

Devourer is a good Idea but it simply doesn't work for this game, it's either useless or broken as hell, there's no ''In between''.

Soul of SelesnyaAug 10, 20154 votes

It's actually more efficient to get stacks by ganking, if your jungler never ganks he's playing it wrong. Devoured forces players to gank more wisely, which I like.

Kuroi86Aug 10, 20152 votes

Best thing to do is gank bot, get assists or kills on the bot, then take scuttle and dragon for a mass of stacks.

MetalrichdogAug 10, 20153 votes

I can't say this buff is going to have a massive impact, because the original nerf to make him unable to immediately return to his original shadow actually didn't destroy him(Just made him have to rely a bit more on his W shadow). Though, adding a little bit more reliability into the ability definitely will make him a bit more slippery when it comes to avoiding many of the hard CC abilities that are common today

WajsterAug 10, 20153 votes

Disagree. No I'm not being saracastic. Zed is not good in his current state but whatever buffs they're giving him need to be carefully considered so he doesn't become as cancer as he was pre nerf.

Only Play DariusAug 10, 20153 votes

The ult nerf isn't what made him weak. The resurgence of tanks and the existance (and price reduction) of item 3157 is what makes him weak.

Also many of the new champs Ekko TahmKench Kalista have a "Fuck your death mark" ability, which essentially removes him from the game since he is so dependent on his ult to do his job.