How to make Katarina less annoying with one change!

Starcall Casey·May 18, 2015·181 votes·7,791 views

Let her activate her ult with nobody around her. This way if she messes up her combo she'll be punished more. Anybody with me?

152 Comments

qetzelMay 18, 201551 votes

This is just a reverse QoL change... It doesn't actually make Katarina any weaker, all it does is spoil the fun of the Katarina player.

A Superb VillainMay 18, 201527 votes

That's the point.

qetzelMay 18, 201531 votes

The point is just to make the game less fun for some people without fixing any problems?

A Superb VillainMay 18, 20158 votes

I was under the impression the OP was venting their frustration with Katarina by suggesting something obviously detrimental. Hence, the joke's point of introducing unnecessary risk to Katarina's ultimate.

Was I wrong? I was not aware Katarina had problems.

LeeDarkMay 19, 20159 votes

I'm not actually sure it was a joke.

Virgin RayMay 19, 20152 votes

True that, but technically speaking, the game should be more skill-oriented. The whole "fun" aspect players point out is being OP and completly 1v5ing and getting a pentakill, like Ekko on PBE right now. The change listed above gives players a good chance to counter her ult because, let's face it, she has burst damage, AND a burst AoE. You'd need some sort of dodge to play the game and not wait 30 seconds or higher to get back in. If you don't have item 3102 or item 3157 let's just hope you didn't feed her too much and the only way to actually make her stop ulting is to CC her, however, if not AP you'd probably find yourself in a pickle because teamfights. If you're Malphite and you launch yourself to airborne her, the team would just kill you instantly, flash would probably not be enough because there could be 20 abilties that can CC you. Her ult changes everything, and probably got a quadra kill if your AP mid was smart enough to item 3157 or item 3102 . By the time you expires her team or her would be waiting to burst you down. If you she'd just blink to you, then burst you down. Making this change means that if she messes up her combo, the enemy team could kill her quicklier and actually make her counterable and more balanced.

QueenAquaMay 19, 20157 votes

Sorry. Gotta correct you here. It's "more quickly", not "quicklier". Quicklier isn't a word. Sorry again. That grammar mistake in particular is a pet peeve of mine.

kaveman89May 19, 20152 votes

You must be confuseified i use dat werd all de time. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=quicklier

QueenAquaMay 19, 20157 votes

urban dictionary isn't actually a dictionary on real words. It consists of words commonly used by society. While real words are in it, it isn't all real words and you don't use these kinds of words in a paper. If it is not accepted as proper English in a school paper, it is not proper grammar. English class taught everyone the proper way to use words like quickly appropriately when using it in the context above. My family consists of 3 English majors who pounded the proper way to use words into me from a young age. Check a Websters dictionary for the word "quicklier" and I guarantee you won't find it (oh look, it isn't there ).

DJ Di0May 18, 201514 votes

This is like a QoL nerf. Not where you should be tackling nerfs imo.

ScurryLizardMay 18, 201513 votes

Nah man, just give her an actual resource bar. Imagine how fast her win-rate would drop if people actually had to manage mana while playing.

NarasimhaMay 18, 201526 votes

Drop? It'd RISE. Imagine Kat with RoA and Seraph's Embrace.

EvilRabbittMay 18, 201515 votes

That and adding mana cost, as they've stated themselves, means RAISING her skill damage. Mana gating allows for a tangible limit to skill spamming- that means skills have to be stronger. Resourceless usage means sandbox balancing- you intentionally make the skills much weaker. Just saying. I agree katarina is a tad strong, but I also see tons of people pick incorrectly towards HER. You can't build a team ignoring katarina, nor do you build one focused. But if you see her picked- grab an opposing laner that will follow her lane to lane, something with cc (riven, lissandra, yasuo) and gap closers. All you have to do to shut kat down is shadow her. Its really really easy. =)

RamuhdoMay 18, 20153 votes

But if Katarina buys Archangel's instead of Luden's/Rabadon, that'd delay her power spike.

NarasimhaMay 18, 20156 votes

It'd also increase her survivabiltiy, and assuming my off-hand math is correct, increase her late game damage as well.

I'm assuming a build of RoA, Seraph's, Luden's, Zhonya's, and Rabadons. And boots, obviously.

Mecha MaIphiteMay 18, 20152 votes

Fully stacked Archangel's gives around 130-140 AP on most champs... sheesh.

IcyPepperMay 18, 20157 votes

Or give her ultimate an actual cooldown?

40 seconds at max rank (no cdr) with a cooldown reset passive, high damage, and no resource cost is absolutely disgusting. I thought manaless champions were gated by cooldowns or something, nothing gates Katarina whatsoever.

ChaoticPineconeMay 18, 20159 votes

its not high damage for a channeled ult with no CC. Fiddlesticks has a high damage ult (25 more damage per second, lasts twice as long, hits more than 3 people, and longer range. though its it scales -25% AP worse).

Kats strength isnt in her ult. its in her resets. Deny the reset and Kat is surprisingly easy to deal with - long cooldowns, low damage, no passive. If she gets one reset, prepare for pain.

It Hertz When IPMay 18, 20155 votes

So... your best advice is essentially "don't die".

MyozthirirnMay 19, 20157 votes

Great advice i'd say :P

ApolloclipticMay 19, 20152 votes

sounds legit to me :D

MrBuffingtonMay 18, 201510 votes

lmao, interesting change no doubt, I just think it's going to be funny watching Katarina spin when no one's around

ApolloclipticMay 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

lmao, interesting change no doubt, I just think it's going to be funny watching Katarina spin when no one's around

Have you never dashed out of her Ulti Range ? Leblanc

MrBuffingtonMay 19, 20151 votes

I should have clarified, having Kat start spinning with no one around.

ApolloclipticMay 19, 20152 votes

Either way it'll still be funny to watch :D (I main Galio and I always have to face palm in shame when I smack that R at the wrong time or completely by accident, like when the adc flashes at you just before jungle creeps spawn ^^

MrBuffingtonMay 19, 20153 votes

Sounds like me with fiddlesticks :P

DesideriumMay 18, 201510 votes

No. That's going to be such a bad gameplay design.

Leave her ult alone; just make her have to commit more for her damage.

She has completely resourceless poke gated only by cooldowns. Make her dagger do 50% less damage, but make the proc on it do 50% more.

TransgressorMay 18, 20152 votes

That's a nice idea, the numbers are too harse, but I could get behind this change.

MyozthirirnMay 19, 20155 votes

They alredy did that on her rework. Dagger used to deal 100% of the damage and proc 0%

XimleeMay 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kinky Ninja Boy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FnMc7x6o,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-05-18T22:46:16.053+0000)

No. That's going to be such a bad gameplay design.

Leave her ult alone; just make her have to commit more for her damage.

She has completely resourceless poke gated only by cooldowns. Make her dagger do 50% less damage, but make the proc on it do 50% more.

This but witha smaller number than 50. Absolutely. 15-20?

EvilRabbittMay 19, 20153 votes

Essentially what you guys want then is to ENTIRELY disable Kat's ability to cs? I know you're scared of her all-in, but denying her the ability to cs (be realistic, she has to be pretty close to do damage to anything WITHOUT her daggers) is like telling those Lux mains that the E with 130 mana cost is actually a good thing. Just saying. Be careful what you ask for, or you will dumpster a pick that is not game-breaking. Read one of my above posts if you need help with her =).

Curling VeigarMay 18, 20157 votes

or just uhhhh

do something about the way her kit works?

AyRe CoNteMpTMay 18, 20156 votes

you mean when some beginner is leveling his account and in his third game vs bots it just so happens that he presses R in base and since katas ult has no visual effect without enemy champions nearby except her spinning in a weird way hes like "wtf this is so unintuitive" and uninstalls the game. or how exactly can you "mess up your combo" ?

like, this is probably the most unreasonable useless idiotic change ive ever seen on the forums, and people have allready talked about zed buffs here.

bonfire10May 18, 201515 votes

Not to mention it would do actual damage in taking away her ability to sense nearby champions with invisibility or in bushes, which she can currently do similarly to morgana ult. This would only punish the lowest level of players while taking away a useful mechanic for more skilled ones.

AyRe CoNteMpTMay 18, 20154 votes

agreed. if you want to change this, also change morganas ult and tryndameres W. and i dont know from the top of my head if there are other abilities like this too. also, i think its somewhat intentional.

like, what GOOD would it do? like if you play against katarina, what harm does it do to you that she can only activate it when you are in range? it makes absolutely no sense. to think she just stands there at her tower, farming with Q and suddenly - spins.

ApolloclipticMay 19, 20151 votes

Well, they originally changed Fiddlesticks (last year) cause you could see he was near you by the stat affect, even if he was in brush (I think it was fiddle anyway) they didn't want people to detect him in roundabout ways, it sounds fair that the same should be applied in reverse. Getting a free warning that enemies are nearby doesn't seem right, especially on champs that need to be locked down with cc to deal with, having them know you're lurking into range gives them even more power

I'd like to add a point here cause you made me reread this:

Many champs can gimp themselves in this mana, like Galio and Amumu. They can just drop an ulti for no reason and completely waste it. It's the nature of most AOE ultimates actually, so to say it makes no sense is ignoring the fact that it's actually the NORMAL behaviour in league, and Kata is one of the Niche exceptions to the rule

AyRe CoNteMpTMay 19, 20154 votes

"even more power" as if katarina was an exceptionally powerful champion.

look, what you are saying is two completely different things. katarina has an extra benefit from her own ability while fiddlesticks fucked himself thru his passive. why would it be "fair" for a champion to have an automatic downside like this that you cant even toggle off or whatnot. its just, when a champion hides in brush, he should be invisible unless enemies have special means to detect you, not unless you are just fucked by your own kit happening to reveal you.

ApolloclipticMay 19, 20151 votes

I made a comparison, I did not say it's the same, and I am not just talking about katarina, but champs in general (as I specifically stated) so rather than focussing on just defending Katarina, look at the point as a whole.

I think that if you have a detection skill, you should have a detection skill, whereas this is more like a glitch that skilled players exploit and Riot just thought, "what the hell" and left it in, the same way they realised it happened with Fiddle but realised it was bad for him.

For fiddle it was an obvious bug that should be changed, whereas for other champs like mentioned (trydamere, katarina, etc) it was still a bug, but players noticed it and utilised it, and it was "ignored" or "purposefully left how it was" for whatever reason.

I am not saying "take it out, it's OP" I'm saying in my opinion, visions skills should be "Vision" "SKILLS" not skills that accidentally grant vision or awareness. If people think it should stay, it'll stay, otherwise, Riot might do a mass update like they did with All fear skills to make the nature of the mechanic different across the board, and not nerf just a specific champ.

I honestly don't think champs like Kata need a "enemy is near" warning or an Ulti prompt, but if the guys at Gameplay and Balance think it needs to stay, fair enough, would just be nice to get some confirmation that it's not an oversight, but I'm sure it came up before as something they are "looking at" as in, may or may not change.

I repeat, I am not talking about Katarina, but the mechanic as a whole. I actually made a post recently about how she is NOT over powered, it's just that (in low elo especially) so many feed her and don't know how to operate with her on the enemy team. It's easy to lane against Kata, and she has escapes and resourcelessness to compensate. And if you play safe and ward she can't roam and snowball either, but if you let her do what she wants, she reaches that point where she can one shot squishies and gets endless resets

AyRe CoNteMpTMay 19, 20152 votes

i agree with that those abilities might not need that detection feature for balance reasons.

well, if you change it so that you can only use it with a visible champion nearby, you cant use it across terrain if you dont have vision or into a brush. so yeah, maybe making it activateable whenever you want wouldnt hurt.

i dont think that it is the best option, but i agree with you on the point that its a bonus feature that doesnt fit the nature of their ability.

ReikkenMay 19, 20155 votes

This reduces Katarina's power though Kat's ult becomes usable when anyone is in range of it, even if they're stealthed or in FoW. I make use of this to catch Shacos who think they're sneaky, among other things

Snake TownMay 19, 20153 votes

That fact that that actually works makes me hate this champ so much more.

TengrichanMay 19, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snake Town,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FnMc7x6o,comment-id=00180000,timestamp=2015-05-19T04:24:37.927+0000)

That fact that that actually works makes me hate this champ so much more.

Yeah and it's so fun to play against a competent Shaco.Oh wait,it's not.

SleepyLionCubMay 18, 20154 votes

Well actually, she has to manually turn it off. So it takes timing and skill to utilize it properly.

inb4downvotes by people who've only played kat maybe 2 or 3 times.