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The problem with old Sej. The problem with current Sej.

chipndip1··18 votes·9,265 views

Old Sej: Hard scaling super tank with incredible late game numbers and barely anything someone can play around besides her missing her ult. Her ult was a projectile Amumu ult that full-on stunned people, and the rest of her kit was a mish-mash of Gragas and Amumu linked together with a defensive steroid. Very little skill expression and and very little room to give her a niche. She was just "da tank", and she got incredibly strong as time marched on in a match, so Riot gut the hell out of her early game, which sucks because junglers have a job in the early game that she wasn't able to do anymore (We can say this exact same thing about Sona but I'm not gonna be the one to do that anymore. Still salty, though).

Current Sej: Riot decided to remove Sejuani's aoe ult, but re-gift her with more chances to proc hard cc through her basic kit. All fine and fair. Her new W is now a skill shot to aim that helps stack her E quickly when you land both hits. Alrighty, nice. She gets a new passive that makes her significantly more tanky when making initial engages, seeing how she's charging in head-first (or the boar's head, but whatever), but drops off to poke and stray shots if you have that on your team. Cool beans.

Here's where the problems arise: Sejuani's historically been tooled for late-game team fighting, and now Riot just up and says "Nah we're moving her from Cho'Gath and Zac's space to something more like Rammus's space, where she's good in the earlier stages of the game". However, they didn't necessarily compensate any of her nerfs with mid-game power. They've simply been blanket nerfing her. If they don't want her late game 5v5 to be as strong, that's cool, but that means things like ganks, clears, and her mid game strengths need to be targeted for compensation. Since Sej has a lot more single-target emphasis now, it shouldn't be hard for Riot to just up and do this soon, but they'll probably wait to let her cool off in the competitive space before trying, first.

Long story short: New Sej is apparently meant to excel in mid game skirmishes and picks in comparison to other tanky junglers, but Riot did only half the job of putting her in that space.

And if Big Lincoln sees this: Yes, most of this thread was thought up after I nearly barfed from what you linked me in Discord yesterday. No, reverting Sej is a terrible idea, and she isn't, nor was she ever, a diver champion.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

47 Comments

Linna Excel13 votes

I think I prefer the old sej more. Yes the new W is better, but without the old ult she just isn't sejuani.

chipndip13 votes

Maybe they should have given her a new ult? The massive visuals kind of betray when you realize it only stuns one person...

Linna Excel2 votes

That might have helped. I always feel like I'm missing the new ult even when I hit it. For me, ulting isn't fun anymore and is a big letdown.

The other problem I have with the rework is she's now this odd melee AA champ, but she's a tank and not a bruiser or carry. I mean she's always been in the middle of a fight, but now she's got this mechanic that works off of her AAs, but she's not encouraged to build any AS or damage items. I'm not even sure I'd do the old Sejuanity force build on her. Her E really feels like it belongs on a different champ. I mean I could see it being tweaked around Leona's passive: hit someone with a spell to mark them and any ally that hits a marked target stuns them.

Ryusaether1 votes

That mechanic works with melee allies' AA and her Flail as well, it feels pretty alrighty to me, now she even has more identity as a leader in melee comps.

Linna Excel1 votes

It might work with her allies, but it doesn't feel 100% right to have a mechanic on a champ that said champ can't itemize for. If that skill was Master Yi's E, or Shyvana's E, or Irelia's E, even Vi's E I'd feel differently. If it was a support champ that marked someone for all ally AAs to do some effect with, I'd at least understand it because that's something I expect on a support.

However for Sej, a tank jungler, I don't think this skill is ideal.

Consider this scenario: you pick Sej and your top laner starts feeding. We've all had a feeding top laner. Well now the ally power budget of the skill is effectively wasted. Maybe you've got a tank support, but frankly they aren't going to be that beefy as the game goes on because they don't have any money for items. Now if you've got a janna or soraka support, you can't even count on them for helping with the E.

If League were like DOTA where an all melee team would work, I'd feel differently. However LoL and dota are two different games (and I'm glad).

MAGA MAN X 20201 votes

I'm on the fence. My fav sej gank used to be q/w then hold e. If they flash while your passive was on them, e into free kill city. The old W worked so much better for proccing liandries too (which I used to love building on her). I do admit though her clear is so much less awful now and she isn't a complete sitting duck for literally anyone to counter jg pre6 for free easy kills.

Big Lincoln6 votes

the problem with old sej was being reworked into current s*j

pre rework sej was a teamfight diver who opts into full HP builds much like how mundo does for juggernauts (or cho if you consider him one) and being labeled incorrectly is why we got this travesty of a shitty rework.

solcrushed sucks at reworks; sej and yorick are hard evidence of this

chipndip17 votes

  • Sej's rework was ACTUALLY fine. Yorick's sucked massive dick.

  • Sej was never a diver. If you think that, that's a fundamental flaw in your understanding of the game. That's like saying Malphite's a diver since he has an AP build, or that Galio is (and I do NOT want to deal with that shit again).

  • Just cause you refuse to admit that old Sej had design issues doesn't mean she didn't. You can't just ignore problems away.

Big Lincoln5 votes

the goal of sej was to hit you with her AOE and then run down your carry. fundamentally she did not have what you needed to be a super tank through absurd quantities of disabling CC and high innate resist. she had 30 armor as her passive steroid compared to the shield,a sustain or damage reduction from other tanks.

diver

chipndip18 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fml1NZEr,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-24T19:35:33.237+0000)

the goal of sej was to hit you with her AOE and then run down your carry.

Literally false. The point was to aoe disrupt enemy teams with her aoe stun and slow. If she's gone way into the enemy back line, who's keeping the enemy off of YOUR back line?

Big Lincoln3 votes

literally true, she did not have health scaling DPS so she could pussyfoot in front of her marksman

chipndip15 votes

Holding a front line =/= Being a warden. Divers and assassins break away from teams to fly behind enemy lines, not vanguards. Vanguards need to hold a front for their back line. They don't remove people from their carries as well, but they're still needed there so people can just up and walk into their adc/apc.

Big Lincoln4 votes

das what sej do though. she stuns your team and then eats your carry, because if you wanted CC literally any real tank had more, ESPECIALLY from the jungle. that's what sej had; less CC besides her ult (but a strong ult to make up for it), no defensive steroid, and great tank->damage conversion to scale with. that was the whole fuckin point of picking her; she had way more damage than other tanks, and was a fair amount tankier than damage-building fighters, but she wasn't tankier than real tanks or doing more damage than fighters. she was a middle-ground between them.

and if you downvote me again...

i'll beat you up dude... don't take away my internet points...

chipndip15 votes

  1. I never downvoted you. Other people are. xD

  2. People don't like tanks walking at them and doing massive damage while being insanely tanky with their passive giving them free stats just for casting moves. That's why she was gutted in the first place.

Big Lincoln4 votes

people don't like being stunlocked ad infinitum just because they were in the general vicinity either, but apparently it's fine for tanks to be half-AFK and still win by virtue of having 3-4 knockups in their kit. lol

every tank post-Sion has been a larger recurring balance problem than the old designs. including sion

chipndip13 votes

I mean, no? Maokai is pretty damn fine?

Big Lincoln2 votes

no

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Maokai is completely retarded due to his base AS and AD.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Tanks dont like dieing while walking at people. If you gonna be ranged be squishy and use your range as your defense. I should be tanky as a tank and to lots of damage which is reduced by Defeneses and thus less usefull in a tank v tank fight or versus the champions that should counter tanks BRUISERS not marksmen bruisers

Sire Hippington3 votes

If Irelia goes deep into the enemy backline, who's keeping the enemy of YOUR backline? Thats just a totally stupid question.... The big point is, Seju had qualities of a diver, she had more target acces than a juggernaut would, good sustained damage vs squishy targets and sticking power, running down a priority target was certainly one of the things Seju could do and often enough would do, which is what a diver does. She also had tools to be disruptive and peel, so she had to make decisions, which is a good and intteresting thing and gives depth despite simple mechanics.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fml1NZEr,comment-id=00020000000000000001,timestamp=2018-04-24T21:15:16.301+0000)

If Irelia goes deep into the enemy backline, who's keeping the enemy of YOUR backline? Thats just a totally stupid question....

Simple: Irelia is designed to fly into enemy lines and snipe squishies. Sejuani isn't, and would take too long doing so. She instead engages a fight, then eats up the counter-engage. If you have Irelia, you need some other beefy body to do THAT job so you can do your job.

The big point is, Seju had qualities of a diver, she had more target acces than a juggernaut would, good sustained damage vs squishy targets and sticking power, running down a priority target was certainly one of the things Seju could do and often enough would do, which is what a diver does.

So Malphite's a diver? Gragas is a diver?

She also had tools to be disruptive and peel, so she had to make decisions, which is a good and intteresting thing and gives depth despite simple mechanics.

That holds true now more than it used to, anyway, so what's the point?

Sire Hippington3 votes

Simple: Irelia is designed to fly into enemy lines and snipe squishies. Sejuani isn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rcG7sgFb-E Seju while seju was designed to be disruptive, she also was desinged to put preassure on the enemie backline. Just watch her old spotlight, especially the part at 3:51 : "Always try to disrupt and Kill the frail enemy backline champions"

So yes, diveing the enemy backline was something they had in mind for Seju back when they desinged her.

So Malphite's a diver? Gragas is a diver?

Malphite certainly also quallifies as a diver/tank hybrid. After his ult, he usually tries to sit in the enemies carries face, useing his ms steal from Q to do so while shutting down the dps with E and consistently dealing supprisingly high damage with W and the low CD Q+E. He has little disruption past his ult and his base kit is rather singletarget focused, much like a diver, and he currently is built often with trinity...

That holds true now more than it used to, anyway, so what's the point?

How does that hold more true now? She has not much decisions right now, you press E whenever someone has enough stacks, you're Q Is used just the same way, W is mechanically a bit more interesting but still is spammed on CD for damage(and stacks) and her Ult still needs her to find a right angle for a stun on the right target It's slightly less forgiveing but the decisionmakeing behind it is pretty close. In fact, it even has less decision since the lack of aoe stun means you always aim for the high priority target while the old one could decideing to go for stunning 3+ other opponents

GhaelWinds4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fml1NZEr,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-24T19:15:19.530+0000)

the problem with old sej was being reworked into current s*j

pre rework sej was a teamfight diver who opts into full HP builds much like how mundo does for juggernauts (or cho if you consider him one) and being labeled incorrectly is why we got this travesty of a shitty rework.

solcrushed sucks at reworks; sej and yorick are hard evidence of this

Yorick was an amazing gameplay rework. He's not even a bad champ right now, just very far under the radar.

Jeddy0173 votes

{quoted}

just very far under the radar.

Good. Let him stay there so I can keep him for myself & the 2 other Yorick players on the planet.

Big Lincoln1 votes

yorick is shit, he's even more of a one-trick pony than malphite

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Better than the amalgamation old yorick was

GhaelWinds1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fml1NZEr,comment-id=000200010001,timestamp=2018-04-25T09:09:41.221+0000)

yorick is shit, he's even more of a one-trick pony than malphite

How is Yorick a one-trick pony? Unlike malphite he doesn't just click one button and win a fight he's largely macro and more about how you set up for a fight versus how well you play the fight itself. He has many min-maxing you can do with him to get the most out of him that gives him an actually substantial skill ceiling.

He's not bad, people just don't like his particular brand of skill expression.

Big Lincoln1 votes

yorick is good for one thing, pushing and hoping other people ignore him. he's a mediocre duelist and a horrible teamfighter, and this is all self evident by him only being meta strong ONCE, in preseason, where every other fighter was trash because they had no keystones while yorick was comfy beating them down with grasp and demolish for their towers

GhaelWinds1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fml1NZEr,comment-id=00020001000100010000,timestamp=2018-04-25T12:10:04.444+0000)

yorick is good for one thing, pushing and hoping other people ignore him. he's a mediocre duelist and a horrible teamfighter, and this is all self evident by him only being meta strong ONCE, in preseason, where every other fighter was trash because they had no keystones while yorick was comfy beating them down with grasp and demolish for their towers

Yea, he's a splitpusher that's his power fantasy so of course he's good at it. But honestly his team fight isn't horrible. Like its bad compared to other juggernauts but he can still win a teamfight on his own with a well placed wall. Plus the maiden damage in a teamfight brings in rather consistent damage for when he himself can't get into the fight.

I think the only real argument for him being pretty awful is how useless he is without ghouls.

Big Lincoln1 votes

literally the only reason yorick became popular as a splitpusher was because every other alternative was sitting at a 46% winrate. other splitpusher still have a lot going for them besides their push power and a little bit of terrain.

that's his problem. you have no reason to play yorick unless every other choice is strictly worse. he scales about as well as milk ages, and really only lane bullies tanks and juggernauts, most of which quickly get to a point they can ignore or run him down if they didn't feed.

the only reason I'd consider him right now is because Nasus is weaker atm.

GhaelWinds1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fml1NZEr,comment-id=0002000100010001000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-25T14:06:45.242+0000) only lane bullies tanks and juggernauts, most of which quickly get to a point they can ignore or run him down if they didn't

Uhm. no. Those are some of his best lanes yes but he also destroys the likes of Gp, Vladimir, Camille etc. He should be winning most lane matchups unless they are extremely mobile in which you shouldn't pick yorick to begin with.

Also yorick's scaling isn't awful. It's pretty mediocre. If he goes even with a hyper late game carry then yea he gets outscaled, but if he takes a lead he'll keep it.

Step Sis Lux5 votes

Ap seju > tank seju forever in my heart

chipndip14 votes

Honestly: Full tank + Liandry's Sej was my favorite pick back in that time, but that doesn't mean her design was good in general. It was fun for what it was worth, and if Riot ever decided to bring her damage typing in line to just one type, AD or AP, I think that'd be cool for people that want that approach to playing her in solo queue.

Step Sis Lux1 votes

she was my only jungler i could play so after rework i was fucked xD but i loved playing with old abysal protobelt and rest tank but i have to say Full ap oneshot was probablly the most fun champion to play

Ralanr3 votes

He talks to you about Sejuani as well huh?

chipndip13 votes

I didn't know he complains about tanks to people besides me.

Basically, he prefers if tanks played like AP Amumu and Malphite, where they have one big hard cc for a whole fight, then wham on people. That's just a fundamental misunderstanding of tanks, though.

Ralanr4 votes

You know my pain so well.

LordGeovanni1 votes

This fundamental misunderstanding of Tanks is only True of League of legends tanks Post season 6 so it is true of current tanks but its not True in relation to leagues lifetime or Other games at all.

Vid the Strange1 votes

[deleted]

chipndip12 votes

Fam, I'm not complaining. I'm just explaining so people can understand what's going on with Sej atm...calm down...

5050BS1 votes

I just want her E to be a Press and stun all who have the stacks in range. None of this stupid have to be in range and Click for each.

Thats what I miss from her old kit.

LordGeovanni1 votes

is that what she has to do now. No wonder my last sej game was so bad.

LankPants1 votes

No, reverting Sej is a terrible idea, and she isn't, nor was she ever, a diver champion.

Sej should be reverted, the rework's an unbalancable mess that completely betrays what Sejuani was.

Yordle Xayah1 votes

I have no idea what to think about Sej... all I know is I couldn't be more bored of her (and Tank Junglers) being in every LCS Level Competitive game. I really enjoy the LCS, but sometimes you gotta say "Enough is enough".

Snowman Arc1 votes

Old Sej wasn't really that tanky. Her only steroid was a +25 armour from her passive whenever she damaged someone, which is barely noticeable. New Sej feels so much better to play, and I was maining Sej during season 5 and a bit in season 6. Back then, her early game was feeling so bad, so powerless, so crippling. You couldn't do anything. At least, now you have options through the entire game, and a better tanky steroid to have a good initial initiation.

TheFancySkeleton1 votes

I mean, she got much more flexible. Have you seen that spine?

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