What does Zac Lack?

atomicwit·May 22, 2015·4 votes·1,057 views

He's not terrible or anything but I figured he'd be stronger in the Cinderhulk meta. His blobs+passive scale with max HP and he's usually built tanky. However, he seems stuck around 48% regardless of ELO. I don't play much Zac so I'm wondering why he didn't get more than a passing glance compared to other Cinderhulk junglers. Why not pick Zac over Gragas, Sejuani etc?

I'll admit though that the Q feels lackluster. I think it should give him a speed boost if he hits someone. That way he can actually get in range for W.

27 Comments

SukishooMay 22, 20153 votes

inb4 someone says a skin.

WolfChasesMay 22, 20151 votes

Was just about that :D

atomicwitMay 29, 20152 votes

Currently, Zac's Q feels mediocre and I've got a way to make it feel more satisfying for skilled players. He can now pick-up blobs with his Q! It makes sense for Zac thematically to be able to absorb another part of his body that he touches (especially with his hands). In terms of power, I think it's a VERY tiny buff because you're focusing Q on players not collecting blobs. However, it would be a really cool QoL and thematic change. What do you guys think?

3TWarriorMay 22, 20151 votes

zac has knockup and slow, gragas and sejuani have group stuns, gragas has up to 20% damage reduction from drink, a ranged slow and damage, crowd positioning ult

idk how people get so good with him at damage though, even full AP his damage is mediocre. To each their own specialty though

Sejuani also does a lot of damage over time and has a twitch/kalista ability that is limited

AyRe CoNteMpTMay 22, 20151 votes

well, zac is really strong right now, almost as strong as gragas and sejuani, he only has two downsides, one of which is minor, one of which is major.

in duels but even more so in teamfights, he isnt able to consistently pick up his blobs. this way, he loses alot of HP during an extended fight that would otherwise be preserved on other champions. this DOES affect him and weaken him in big tamfights, even tho it buffs him ridiculously in skirmishes and jungling. tho since sustaining in jungle is no longer a problem this meta, it doesnt matter much.
the major downside tho is that none of his abilities is strong the moment you press a button. he is somewhat sustained magic damage and "sustained cc" if you wanna call it that. he has no burst and requires at least not-retarded use of his abilities, while a gragas or sejuani can press all their buttons and their teamfighting is done. all abilities just do something and it all has a pretty big effect on its own. zacs biggest damage potential comes from his unstable matter and he has to pick up blobs and spam it on many people to be impactfull, but since picking up blobs in a 5on5 is unlikely, he loses out on not just healing but also damage and his ultimate is sustained too while its CC is actually low for todays standards.

like, gragas and sejuani are really the prime examples of "press button, be effective regardless of brain damage suffered during childhood abuse". zac doesnt have that, so even tho hes really strong, hes not super easy and freewin. tho im also not saying hes exceptionally hard. i think hes pretty much good where he is now, tho i would nerf his jump as in you have a smaller area to chose from aswell as a limited range choice. like when you charge it fully, you cant jump melee range anymore and such, because i think even tho the jumps range and damage and cooldown is all good, it gives a bit too much freedom of choice.

67chromeMay 22, 20151 votes

What does Zac Lack?

He was really solid on release and widely used - then Riot arguably overnerffed him and kind of left him in a weakened state where he's always been kinda "eh" compared to the alternatives.

As for the cinderhulk meta - Zac doesn't use HP any better than any other champion in the game: so he doesn't get any boost with an HP item over other champions, leaving him in largely the same spot. except other champions do actually scale really well with HP. All %Damage Reduction, armor, MR, damage absorption, etc buffs scale with HP to make each point more valuable. Abilities with HP ratios also scale with HP - of which ~8 champions benefit from. Also - Cinderhulk is more of a tanky DPS item than a tanky CC item, and Zac is pretty solidly in the tanky CC camp. Champions designed to run into the middle of their opponents and burn them to death are just better at doing that than tanky CC champions.

Teridax68May 22, 20151 votes

I feel Zac 's mechanics don't mesh as well with themselves as they should, which is why he's a bit lackluster. On paper, he's the perfect initiation tank (massive dash, two knockups and a slow, constant on-demand max-health healing, a revive passive), but in practice, he doesn't really make full use of his tools: his blobs are exceedingly hard to pick up in the middle of heated combat, so he has trouble sustaining himself in teamfights, and his ult knockback, while good at separating people, also makes it harder for him to catch multiple targets at once with his W, which also has trouble functioning due to how he can't access his blobs properly. As you mentioned, his Q isn't that strong overall, and his revive passive loses really hard to AoE, which also makes it excessively difficult for him to survive teamfights. I think he mostly just needs easier mid- to late-game access to his blobs to become a really strong tank.

StrawberrycocoaMay 22, 20151 votes

He had easier access to his blobs on release, but they nerfed the blobs to be more difficult to pick-up because he was top laning a lot at the time and the blobs gave him a lot of lane sustain. Spawning so far from Zac is a counterplay nerf to make life easier on his opponents.

It also makes jungling really goofy because you stop autoing the monsters to run in a circle around them grabbing blobs. -_-

Teridax68May 22, 20151 votes

I meant better access to his blobs past the early game. Top lane Zac was infamous for being nearly impossible to dislodge, due to how he could easily sustain himself at little risk, and the increased drop range on his blobs made his laning more interactive, so that was a good thing. The problem with his blobs right now, which he had even before that nerf (though to a lesser degree), is that it's difficult for him to accomplish his goals (e.g. initiating, focusing on specific targets) and pick them up at the same time, especially when battles shift around. If, for example, his blobs started moving towards him after a little while, as with his resurrection passive's bloblets, he'd be much more likely to pick them up, even if they landed even farther away from him at the start (or, alternatively, if they only started moving towards him past a certain level).

atomicwitMay 23, 20151 votes

I just had a Nunu use Trailblazer smite on my passive. I didn't die but then he ate me. :(

You have some good points. Something else I'd like would be an easy source of CDR without having to use runes for it (since it makes you a lot less tanky early). There aren't that many high CDR items for non-mana champions. It's basically just SV and Ionian. Ionian is fairly mediocre late game though since you'd much rather have Ninja or Mercs and just get the CDR elsewhere.

C4KEMay 22, 20151 votes

I feel, personally, that his clears are good, but he lacks some early game power and hp in his clears. It's not hard to clear, but you do come out pretty low. He has good early game cc, but I think he lacks some dmg there. After that he is a monster in midgame, late game he has great cc and is a very good tank. Overall he is really good, maybe he should get more hp on blob pickup since they are farther away from him now. Or at least give him that extra hp early game.

C4KEMay 22, 20151 votes

Thinking about it, what would you think if his q range was longer? I mean, he is strechy, so maybe it can have a toggle range like his slingshot does. I think that would really help especially against those pesky ranged champs. How far does it have to go. Not too much farther, maybe 50-100 extra if he holds it down, probably more like in the middle of that. And if he hits multiple targets, he could have more blobs. Doesn't have to be all those things, maybe just one of them.

3TWarriorMay 22, 20151 votes

actually, that would be interesting, maybe give him the range of some of the lower carries so he doesn't have to be picked off from a distance, then ravenous hydra could do some aoe damage and life steal as well as helping his jungle clear times, but it's speculation because his tank stats are still off since he's a fighter

3TWarriorMay 22, 20151 votes

they could make it viable in the jungle by having him wave his arms to do aoe damage in an arcing slice motion. though he might become an op jungler at that point, but isn't that the point if riot nerfed his only two positions...

atomicwitMay 23, 20151 votes

I think Q is mostly used to catch people and so charging it doesn't make much sense to me unless it's a super fast charge. People also won't sit still while they see you charge it. If it had a charge time, making it work the way Sion Q does would make more sense.

3TWarriorMay 22, 20151 votes

actually, what really cost Zac was the stealth nerf to item 3065 ...20% extra is nowhere near the sustain of double...it was his goto item for resists and spellvamp and made his 4% passive jump to 8%, now he loses basically his gain just by aoe damage such as the burn of item 3068

Cloud273May 22, 20151 votes

The charge time on his slingshot is too long. He should launch the instant you press the button.

StrawberrycocoaMay 22, 20151 votes

That charge time gives people chasing him a window of opportunity to catch him before he escapes irrevocably.

thinking manMay 22, 20151 votes

He's perfectly fine right now and in no way needs buffs.

BremerdanGorstMay 22, 20151 votes

Honestly, he's probably better than people realize, I think his E is just more prone to missing.

atomicwitMay 24, 20151 votes

Alright, I hate replying to myself (no one cares about Zac?) but I found some weaknesses that I hadn't anticipated. First of all, his sustain is really good in the jungle but he will be almost perpetually at 50% or less HP so he's quite vulnerable to invades (even more than Amumu imo). Secondly, he's actually not tanky at all compared to Sejuani, Amumu or other junglers I play. I itemize him full tank but because his abilities cost HP, you lose a lot of HP at the start of the fight just from killing yourself.

Meep ManMay 24, 20151 votes

Zac is really good. He is more of a sleeper right now. Once Sejuani and maybe Gragas are nerfed a little, he should rise to popularity.

EndlessSorcererMay 24, 20151 votes

Bones.

atomicwitMay 29, 20151 votes

Zac is incredibly vulnerable to invades. I just had a Rek'Sai kill me 3x in my own JG while stealing pretty much everything. Zac is even weaker early than an Amumu and can't duel anyone. Even my Karthus JG is a better duelist.

The bigger issue is that you have no easy escape. Amumu can at least Q over a wall to a camp. Zac has to actually charge his E though and most JGs have some sort of ability to interrupt before it goes off. For a champion that scales decently but not incredibly, this amount of vulnerability to counterjungling is unacceptable. Zac was released when the JG was much easier and I don't think he was as glaringly weak in this department.

ofartMay 31, 20151 votes

I think he suffers from the "Fiddle problem." He basically has to slowly charge up his E from fog of war and hope his opponents are bad enough to clump. If there is proper warding and positioning, he won't be able to get a good engage off. Then, he does basically nothing. He's sort of in the Singed category in that he depends on his opponents to be bad for him to do well.

Other JGs are less risky in that sense. They don't just depend on one perfect engage and ultimate to be useful. Zac, however, depends on a perfect initiate and that's not very realistic vs good players. This makes him very hit or miss and it's a big reason why he doesn't see more competitive play.

atomicwitMay 31, 20151 votes

Fantastic Zac game from Azingy vs C9! This is a must for any Zac fan.

atomicwitJun 7, 20151 votes

And he strikes again! :D