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About Zenons recent statement regarding "Counterplay"

Earl Eulrich··15 votes·4,989 views

"A button that says "I remove this effect" is not counterplay. A button on an item you have to buy that says I remove this effect is even worse. Look at any time Malzahar/Warwick/Skarner are strong in the meta--you now have to buy a QSS if you're a squishy on the enemy team. This is not counterplay, this is just forcing people to buy a suboptimal item. Counterplay is Morgana's Dark Binding hitting minions and traveling slowly and having a cast time. You can stand behind minions, dodge it, or worst case situation flash away from it. Counterplay is Gnar's big form having bad mobility, forcing Gnar to hop/crunch in for the GNAR! when his rage is almost full--talk about a well telegraphed engage. You can see it coming, you can spread up, you can slow him down, you can kite back etc. Knock-ups are no less or worse in terms of counterplay than stuns or roots. That they're unaffected by tenacity and can't really be cleansed (they CAN be cleansed, at least the part that makes you unable to cast/attack. You're still considered "in a move block", so you can't move by right-clicking, but you can, for instance, cleanse an Alistar knockup and Lucian-dash away from it while you're still in mid air) (but this is academical and besides the point) is an artifact of implementation that was later embraced as intentional. We could totally make the choice that tenacity shortens these effects or that cleanse drops you to the ground instantly, but it's not entirely obvious if that would be a net positive. TL;DR: Counterplay happens before you are hit by an effect."

While I personally agree on some parts of your argument...I don´t think your TL/DR is healthy for the game:

  • for me Counterplay means that you have a chance to punish your opponent if you manage to outplay (e.g. dodge his ability). THis is sth. that just doesn´t happen for a lot of things in this game currently, old Nida had been a prime example - as everyone noticed that it´s not really counterplay to stand there and dodge spear after spear for an hour with little chance for her to screw up and be engaged on while she won if you just screwed up dodging once. The Morg Binding you use in your Example for me falls in this category actually: Yea, it can be doged and it can be blocked, but in the end of the day it does not offer you any chance to strike back at Morg if she wastes it - she still is 1000+range away and has her balck shield to save her from serious engaging attempts. So the Changes for her to screw up are way less than the changes for someone to finally get hit and then stay CC´d till doomsday. I think you really should reevaluate how impactfull you want to have such spamable long-range skills...and especially how much disengage potential you want to hand over to Champs that have such long-range abilities.
  • So as item 3222 does not offer any Counterplay to anything his main function then somewhat seems to be to make Varus and Ashe (carries that realy on their initiating utility) unviable currently. I think the Game would actually be better off without that Item and your arguments sort of support this.
  • Alistars ~90% pick&ban-rate in worlds currently really suggests that Knockups/backs are really worse to play against than the likes of Stuns. E.g Irelia should be a natural counter to toplane Alistar, as she deals truedmg, has great sustain and is really resilent to CC - though well, turns out she´s not resilent to being knocked around and thus just cannot dare to face Alistar. I think Counterbuilding is still a large part of Counterplay in the long run, and right now you really undervalue the impact of Tenacity on Teamfights way too much...while hardcountering certain things with the likes of item 3140 or die to it surely isn´t a healthy way to deal with things - soft countering CC by bringing the duration you have to live through down before you may impact the fight again really helps out a lot, especially on frontline Champions (though they seem to be fairly neglected anyway ever since S2 ended)

47 Comments

Raptamei12 votes

Zenon is utterly off base here.

Dota has few skillshots and tons of attacks that are either undodgeable or almost so (blink blackhole). The counterplay in Dota lies in counterbuilding, counterpicking, reflexes, and most importantly positioning so that the enemy can only use their abilities ineffectively.

Riot sadly believes that counterplay can only occur after a play has been initiated, which is why the game is so passive and snowbally - doesn't matter if you set up a big play, the enemy gets a free chance to dodge it; doesn't matter if you do something awesome to come back from behind, the enemy (who you just outplayed, mind) gets another chance to turn it around on you.

Not to mention removing counterpicks means even less variety. The reason why Dota has so much pick variety is because every pick is good in some strategy or as a counter to some strategy; League removes this, ensuring there is no reason not to just pick the best champions.

Dehorn4 votes

exactly.

SpooksWithNukes2 votes

you just blew my mind broitem 3455

bahamutkaiser7 votes

Counterplay for a Binary effect can be done in many ways, You can add skill shot or action delay to effects like Suppression, or you could remove counters to effects like Suppression and force opponents to play against the treat rather than buy against it. Counterplay for suppression is staying close to allies who can break you free, maintaining distance, delayed stun, and so on.

There are a lot of things that don't have counterplay exactly like Suppression, like a regular auto attack, it's still range oriented and there are no general ways to stop it from hitting you except to be out of range. Champions who have suppression usually have some sort of limitation built into their kit, and work just fine, if the binary nature of countering it is a problem, that remove the binary counter, and force foes to recon with the danger naturally. Some counterplay could be built into the moves themself, but trying to add counterplay to everything instead of allowing units to have unique abilities is part of what is wrong with this game, if their going to adjust the game to be 100% esports centric, it's just going to fail to be a good game anymore.

Kingsgrave1 votes

Counterplay for a Binary effect can be done in many ways, You can add skill shot or action delay to effects like Suppression, or you could remove counters to effects like Suppression and force opponents to play against the treat rather than buy against it. Counterplay for suppression is staying close to allies who can break you free, maintaining distance, delayed stun, and so on.

There are a lot of things that don't have counterplay exactly like Suppression, like a regular auto attack, it's still range oriented and there are no general ways to stop it from hitting you except to be out of range. Champions who have suppression usually have some sort of limitation built into their kit, and work just fine, if the binary nature of countering it is a problem, that remove the binary counter, and force foes to recon with the danger naturally. Some counterplay could be built into the moves themself, but trying to add counterplay to everything instead of allowing units to have unique abilities is part of what is wrong with this game, if their going to adjust the game to be 100% esports centric, it's just going to fail to be a good game anymore.

Suppression is bad because its just a Stun that you cant counter in the normal way you would counter a Stun. Its entirely arbitrary.

Honestly though, Displacements are just as bad as Suppressions.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

there´s a big difference between suppression and every other CC in the game: Suppression CCs the user aswell.

So I think it´s absolutely ok for Suppression to don´t allow 1v1 Counterplay and balance it around the fact that using a Suppression-Ability in a Teamfight makes the Suppression-User himself very vulnerable and in ding so it offers a lot of counterplay that is not as "stupidly" binary as item 3140

Kingsgrave1 votes

Except that you don't need a suppression effect to have this. Even if Malz's R was a stun he would still be channeling the ability, thus be vulnerable. Other characters like Renekton when he uses his W are stunned in place as well.

Its arbitrary.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

there´s a real big difference between animation-time and channeling an ability. And making it a simple stun would make it completely useless, as you would just take cleanse and deny the ability from the get go. Suppression disables the victim and the perpetrator both for the whole duration.

Dehorn1 votes

100% agree.

KaWraith6 votes

TL;DR Riot is going to keep proclaiming that their bugs are features right up until the moment they finally fix them, never admitting that they knew they were wrong in the first place. They think we are too dumb to notice, and most people are too distracted to call them on it. Sadly they are probably right.

Riot's positions on things rarely make sense. Until you realize they are usually a PR move of someone proclaiming "That's not a bug, it's a feature!" Examples: "RNG is terrible and unfun" (Riot on why why dodge was removed) "RNG is interesting and fun on binary roles like ADC" (Riot on why Crit chance makes ADCs more interesting/fun to play) And basically: "Everything morello has ever said"... seriously go look up anything he says, and evaluate it as an after the fact excuse for why whatever he decided was "the right decision at the time".

Riot seems to want us to believe that 'counter play', means having superior positioning, not buying QSS... yet QSS exists (and got an upgrade path instead of being removed). also, flash-ults exists (e.g.WW/ Annie/ Malz/mumu/galio/liss), which basically make positioning to counter them impossible... but if flash didn't exist, these champs would be fairly underpowered because they are too easy to avoid... so flash is necessary to provide counter-counterplay opportunities. It's just hallmark examples of bad design layered over bad design (just like the air client and it's layered update patches when it needs to be thrown out and rebuilt from scratch).

REMagic426 votes

Xypherous wrote literally 20 hours ago that critical strikes are currently being looked at and he identifies them as a problem. I think the main reason you seem to believe that they are inconsistent in what they say and do, is, that they really are. Riot doesn't have its own opinion, it's just the company hiring all these different designers with different views. In these official documents regarding upcoming pre-season changes you can be fairly certain that it IS Riot's "official policy" and actually decisions that the entire designer team is standing behind. But all this chat on the forums is just an exchange of opinions and ideas - designers do not agree with each other on every single issue, so you might hear from Zenon that RNG can promote counterplay, whereas Xypherous will say "nono, it needs to go!"

If you want "official" statements, wait for them to come to you in the Dev-Blogs. Until then, it's just designers chatting about the ideas they have and things they want to test. Also, as far as I know, ZenonTheStoic is a designer very close to the champion specifics, whereas Ghostcrawler and Morello are the "shotcallers" for the designer team. So if Zenon tells us his interpretation of counterplay, you should take it with a grain of salt, since his statement may differ from the response you'd get from Morello or Ghostcrawler.

TL;DR: There is no "Riot says" unless it's in the form of official statements. These occasional responses by designers on the forums are just "hey, I am just surfing the forums and trying to answer questions and sharing ideas to the best of my ability. I have not talked through everything I am going to say with Morello and GC!"

Snakethrower1 votes

I agree that randomness is a bad thing. While it's definitely frustrating to win / loose a fight because of crit luck it also increases awareness how much poke you can take and when you initiate. I believe that a little bit randomness makes MOBAs more exciting to play.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

Riot doesn't have its own opinion.

THis certainly cannot be true, as if they wouldn´t have a consensus the game would not exist.

You surely cannot just take every post from a single Rioter as an official statement from the company (and that´s certainly not what I wanted to do here, I just wanted to create a discussion about it and maybe get Zenon or any other red that reads it to rethink their position about this topic), but at some point they take action and act one way and not another - not all Rioters might agree on every change they make to the game, but once a change is made to the game this certainly becomes the official "opinion". And in the end that´s what matters when we play the game. If we think the game is better with altering things we can just reach out here and hope it´ll get enough attention from the right people/change the right minds to make it through into the game. And thus it´s fairly unimportant if it´s a single Rioter or an "official" Statement, changing a single mind can eventually help changing the whole game.

KaWraith2 votes

Xypherous wrote literally 20 hours ago that critical strikes are currently being looked at and he identifies them as a problem.

My Case in point: RNG was perfectly fine and ok, then dodge was removed because it wasn't... but crit RNG was perfectly fine and ok until: now they are suddenly saying crit RNG is an issue they are going to fix. After they make a decision they justify it to the death... Even if later they say, no, now it's this other way. They never admit they were wrong. it's PR

RiotZenonTheStoic6 votes

You're right, I did overstate things for effect and was a little hasty. Apologies.

Of course "use Mikhael's to strip a CC effect off your ADC" is counterplay. Is it great, deep counterplay? No, not really. The choice is usually super obvious: does my Kog'Maw take a hard CC effect? Immediately use Mikhael's on him as soon as possible. This is a reaction time check, not an interesting decision (and I very much subscribe to Sid Meier's view on (strategy) games being a series of interesting decisions).

In short, I think we should continue to focus on granular, moment to moment, repeatable counterplay that makes the game richer and more interesting for both sides.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

Thanks for the reply smiles

In short, I think we should continue to focus on granular, moment to moment, repeatable counterplay that makes the game richer and more interesting for both sides.

I think in general that´s quite what I would like to see for the game aswell, though there are some issues for me currently:

  • mainly I think dodging long-range abilities is not really a satisfying experience, as most of the time it only enables you to do another "dodge-test" a short time later and so on and so on...despite being repeatable, moment to moment counterplay. So for me I think an important factor should be that "counterplaying" empoweres you to have the upper hand afterwards if you do it right...otherwise it´s sort of pointless.

  • Mikheals for me is a very critical item...as I think it pretty much offers a form of counterplay that should not exist. Kog´maw is designed around being vulnerable to getting "all-ined" and as tradeof has the about the most sustained-dps in the game. With Mikheals he loses his weakness to a point while not losing anything of his strength.

  • QSS falls in sort of the same category as Mikheals...I don´t think there should be a button to counter Suppression-effects, they already offer rich counterplay by disabeling the Champion that casts them aswell and they can be broken by CC. With QSS it´s again just weaking the suppression-user without having any tradeoff for the QSS-user (as the item scales fairly well nowadays).

So currently there is just a lot of onesided stuff in this game, either for the initiating party or for the reacting party...I really hope you can take care of some of these issues during this preseason, making the game richer and more interessting for all sides. Glad to see you´re on the same page.

Jamnon1 votes

What are your thoughts on item 3153 Blade of the ruined king?

I find it interesting but am torn because it feels like ONE ITEM throws tanks under the bus, and that is not satisfying for tanks.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

I think the real problematic thing about it is that you gain a massive midgame-powerspike from the AD+AS combination and it still scales very well into the lategame with the on hit effect...also it offers a lot (too much) power for 1v1 Situations. It´s just too well rounded without any real weakpoints I guess. It is not half as niche as it should be.

Jamnon1 votes

Well put. Contrast this with item 3123 which is niche, but isnt so well-rounded that it feels like a must buy that does too much. Youd only buy it to fill the niche, which I feel like BotRK should be, niche.

item 3075 is strong, but niche. Outside of this niche there are other items which fill a general purpose perhaps item 3068 better, but do not fill the same niche that thornmail does.

item 3153 feels like a must grab because of how well rounded it is. It shouldnt be the most effective item hands down in most cases. It feels like the LeeSin of items.

Goumindong1 votes

But so is every active ability for the most part. Zhonya(dodge an ability), DFG, etc.

There is still interesting strategic choice in buying Mikaels. Does the enemy team have CC i need to spend this much gold for?

Moreover it opens up counter play options on the other side, just like black shield does. When you have Mikaels (or BV, or QSS) the enemy has to decide how to get you to burn your Mikaels without dropping their big ability that they want to use down. Just like they would on a zhonya or any of the other actives everyone loves to use

shppy1 votes

You're right, I did overstate things for effect and was a little hasty. Apologies.

Of course "use Mikhael's to strip a CC effect off your ADC" is counterplay. Is it great, deep counterplay? No, not really. The choice is usually super obvious: does my Kog'Maw take a hard CC effect? Immediately use Mikhael's on him as soon as possible. This is a reaction time check, not an interesting decision (and I very much subscribe to Sid Meier's view on (strategy) games being a series of interesting decisions).

In short, I think we should continue to focus on granular, moment to moment, repeatable counterplay that makes the game richer and more interesting for both sides.

K, then how about this option for helping foster deeper counterplay:

All dash/flash type abilities on ranged champions are now interruptible in-progress by all movement-preventing hard cc, the same way Yasuo's E is.

Melees already have a substantial depth to the timing of their gapclosers, as the mechanic of ignoring cc until the end of the dash gives them a form of 'active' timed psuedo-tenacity (that they often need to stay relevant in a game that heavily favors range). Currently, ranged champions possess this too... but it's not adding to their depth of decision-making; instead it just tends to add an even greater degree of safety without real thought (because the kneejerk reaction of a ranged champ to escape is generally regardless of cc, the ignoring of cc tends to be incidental rather than intentional, i.e. not an actual decision). Making this change would tone down the oppressive aspects of ranged champs with mobility while adding more depth to their own timing (having to decide when to escape in a way that won't be interrupted) while also adding more decisions to their aggressors (do I burn the cc up front to bind them in their more vulnerable current position after which they'll be able to use their escape in full, or do I wait and try to interrupt their escape, leaving them in a slightly less vulnerable position but without an escape to use after the cc expires, at the risk of missing my window altogether?)

ValyrianBlade5 votes

I think the whole "tenacity doesn't affect knock backs/ups" is just absurd. There's no reason for it not to, unless they wanted to have the option to make certain champions have more effective CC than others in this way against only certain other champions (those who have or build tenacity).

On the other topics of counterplay, just because something isn't defined as such doesn't mean it's good or bad for the game. While the things you mentioned don't open up a window where you can punish them so evidently (I would comment that when Morgana's snare is down is when your jungler should gank) there is the point that she has this as not only her core skill but her only real source of damage (as you can walk out of her w and her e is a shield, and she'll have to flash+zhonya's to pull off a good ult most of the time. It seems reasonable to have such a low risk impactful skill when her kit is useless otherwise for the most part. If there's a problem with Morgana it's in that her kit revolves around a snare (which is why she's typically either very impactful or completely irrelevant).

In summary, I hope not considering something counterplay doesn't exclude it from review or vice versa.

Best Shyvana AU4 votes

Alistair is pick or ban in worlds purely because it's being played on a patch where he is able to punch while headbutting, which makes it hell to play up there.

Dehorn3 votes

TIL countering cc is not counterplay... ok.

TehNACHO2 votes

Wrong.

To simply buy the ability to negate your opponent's ultimate is not counter play. It is a counter strategy, yes, but the decision is totally binary and not even in a good way.

Dehorn4 votes

this is an objective, strategy based game. counter strategy is counter play.

TehNACHO6 votes

You misunderstand. When I say 'totally binary and not even in a good way', that was commentary towards what can or can't be good counter strategies. Keeping your duo bot lane at bot lane to maintain dragon presence early vs putting your duo 'bot' lane in top lane to abuse a 2v1 farming situation is a binary decision (at least in the scenario I establish) and it's binary in a good way. There's a fair trade in either situation so that no matter what situation you take, it was at your own will to pull off. This is counterstrategy that requires decision making and for the players to actively participate outside of the strategy aspect alone to pull off.

Now a bad binary system is "Pay 1500 gold to negate this ultimate that will probably kill you", in the proposed situation that Malzahar or Warwick are op. There is no decision making because the trigger for this scenario, Malzahar or Warwick CCing you, is bound to happen regardless, so you must either respond by dying or buying your way out. Because the trigger is forced, most players now MUST consider the two options. In any situation where Malzahar or Warwick are overpowered, the objectively 'best' move is to buy the QSS and negate the ult. In any situation where Malzahar or Warwick are underpowered, you're probably not going to bother. This is a bad binary situation because there is no player interaction here any more than just 'buy or die'.

TehNACHO3 votes

Adding on; my point is counterstrategy in and of itself isn't bad, it's just that executing on it badly is, well, bad.

Badly designed counter play is exactly the point that this op is trying to point out and help fix. Simply having these really badly designed systems and calling it a day is just...no.

Dehorn1 votes

i get it, i just dont think your second example is a "bad" system. thats just what mobas are. in my mind, all mobas are very binary and logical. they picked x, we need to pick y. he is building x, i need to build y. they are doing x, we need to do y.

TehNACHO1 votes

I guess. It is largely arbitrary, regardless.

That pointed out however, I think we both know where Riot is (trying to) stand on this arbitrary line.

REMagic422 votes

I think Riot wants to minimize the effect of "they picked x, we need to pick y" on a non-competitive level and make up for it with tons of "they are doing x, we need to do y". I am writing "non-competitive level", since in competitive play, obviously, picks matter a lot because it's about minimal advantages. But one of Riot's goals is to reduce the effectiveness of "counterPICKS" as opposed to "counterPLAY" - you shouldn't get into a game and already know who's going to win no matter what the other side does. That's why there are close to zero hard counters in the game, because Riot's position is to make in-combat decisions more important than pre-game decisions.

Dehorn3 votes

the strategist in me hates this idea. homogenizing champs will make this game boring. i like that we can have pick comps, split pushers, siege comps, wombo combo team fights, etc. i like that if i see the enemy team has no initiation, we can pick a poke comp and kite them to death. champion picks should be a huge factor in lol.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

Oh well, it´s kinda important for the game to function that there are always ways to react to what an opponent is doing (though ofc forcing him to react should always be the stronger tactic, which might somewhat be screwed as it is now in regard to teamfighting). That´s basically the concept refered to as "counterplay"...if there´s sth. that doesn´t offer you some way to react to it than it is fair to assume there´s no "counterplay" to that, doesn´t really matter if it´s a strategy, a Campion or an ability - that´s just a difference in the scale but not in the concept.

Snakethrower4 votes

At the same time I'ld however complain about that these items exist. It's a joke that you can cleanse more than 50% of Malzahars damage (E and R). It's the same problem Swain faces. Even if those champions get fed they get completely countered by a single item. Imagine how big the crying would be if they suddenly introduced a 1400g item that reduced Zed'd damage down to 40 or 50%...

NeroUS3 votes

the phrase (or word?) counter-play doesn't seem to mean much;

It seems to me that riot invented it to justify their design choices. Everything in LoL has counterplay in that there are things you can do, at some level, to counter it; this could be at the pick stage, itemization stage, split-second reaction stage or rotation stage.

The real question is at what level do you have to counter a particular thing and how strong is it i.e. how much does it force you into particular choices with particular expectations.

So, how does Zed have counterplay? He has counterplay at the pick stage (counter pick Kayle mid or taric support). Counterplay at the itemization stage (build armor or QSS). Split second reaction stage (dodge Q; but NB can't dodge R). Rotation stage (group).

Now, in many games some of these options will be difficult or undesirable because of other champions that force you away from particular options for counterplay. Kayle might be a bad mid for your game, taric a bad support because lucian lane bully and you need a stronger early game support. Armor might not be viable because you are ADC or they have 2 Ap champions. Split second reaction always helps but to some degree dodging skillshots = luck and is dependent on ping. Rotation can be difficult to co-ordinate in Soloque or might be difficult because the champion is too strong a split-pusher to allow you to group.

The point is what riot calls "counterplay" is actually a collection of options left to you in the game to deal with that champion's abilities and cannot be reduced to "skill shot you can dodge."

RagnarokChu2 votes

People need to hop off this "counter play train."

Literally everyone trying to change the game into the most bland thing with no RNG, 100-0 or any type of special thing to any type of champion.

Saying silence on something like talon doesn't have "counterplay" thus removed is stupid, it's part of his kit designed as a assassin to kill you in the time frame of his abilities. The counterplay itself is that you know silence doesn't stop you from moving nor autoattacking and it's tied to his only gap closer, but if it was a knockup suddenly it's 100% ok. The CC with no counterplay period or interaction.

item 3222doesn't have any counterplay because it's SUPPOSE to be a SKILL based counterplay to CC, it's ok in the game because it requires skill, mechanics, timing and planning to use to the most efficient and it always isn't up. It is 100% totally ok to have in the game and good for it.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

counterplay(common tongue)- verb: you make a play and it counters something in whatever way. ie an action

counterplay(league game design terminology)- noun: Something you do naturally prevents this effect from causing you to deviate from normal gameplay or making big plays in retaliation. ie a potential

To remove cc with an item is not "counterplay" it is merely "counterplaying". CC can have counterplay in league terms but you do not counterplay it with counterplay, you use its counterplay to counterplay it by nonleague terms. That way your carry which may or may not carry you or anyone ever can fill they carry role, which doesn't require you to be a carry nor carry anyone, successfully without carrying but still being highly relevant.

Kingsgrave1 votes

Countering Counter Play Counter Strategy

All 3 of these things are not synonymous with each other yet people use them like they are.

Cancer Fizz1 votes

Countering Counter Play Counter Strategy

All 3 of these things are not synonymous with each other yet people use them like they are.

this isn't exactly true,the issue with qss and warwick for example,is that if you buy qss for warwick,you will just use it every time he ults and never use it elsewhere,so there isn't much depth to it,if say qss was a more sensible item to get early against most setups,it could be seen as counterplay as it would act somewhat similar to banshees veil.

counter-building is a form of counterplay,i guess it just isn't viewed as such when the interaction is trivial(qss only when ww ults you),mind you i guess that isn't that bad,at least you can do something against these abilities,some champions in this game are way worse,you can't qss fizz w+q combo from oneshotting you,or qss yasuos windwall or spammable dash,or make a skillshot land on fizz with his e up.(which it generally is,as it basically has no cooldown)

still wondering why fizz and yasuo are allowed to be so strong,as it's obvious that you simply need very specific picks against them,to plenty of champions there is just no room to outplay a fizz/yasuo unless they are completely incompetent and have no clue how to play their cancer.

Vellich0r1 votes

knockups and knock backs tend to be extremely short in duration with a short stun afterward (Alistar knockup) and Ali top is so good because of his ungodly tankiness and the free harass he had in worlds patch.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

i´d bet a lot on it that he still would be 100%pick&ban even with the changes, he´s just too tanky and offers too much control for teamfights right now. Even with the 4.14patch he still had been used as support fairly often. And if you compare knockups with other CC you´ll notice they aren´t short for the impact they create.

Vellich0r1 votes

he will be a lot easier to bully in lane. and they are short no matter the impact, they are like stuns that are slightly shorter than average.

joemommasmomma1 votes

Gangplank

TriumphantReaper1 votes

There shouldn't be items that right screw over the whole purpose of a champion to me that seems just poor design or laziness to create better mechanics.

Marenjii1 votes

Sub-optimal? It builds into an item which gives 80 AD, gives you 45 MR, and its active gives you a movement speed boost. It is not sub-optimal especially when that B.F sword you bought can be made into a MS if you see that the enemy has an out of control mage with CC.

Yandere Carry1 votes

unless you're an ap mid.

MetalGearTeemu1 votes

Basically what I get form this is that Rito wants to strip out all reilable targeted cc so mobility heros rule the game more then they already do? Why even have items if itemizing against your opponent is not counterplay? Go the Hots route.

Riots team seems to have lost vision of what makes a real time tactics games like Dota and LoL what they are. They created an accidental star wars of the moba scene, and they've gone full george lucas bumbling along trying to "improve it" when ultimately their modifications serve to make it just a little bit worse every incarnation.

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8
votes
2 Ganes of C9, twice with double ADC
Gameplay12 comments
7
votes