The Fighter Problem

Chromatic Eagle·Feb 3, 2015·15 votes·53,314 views

I've seen a few people mention a fighter rework that was promised, but what's wrong with them again? For us newer players and those who forgot.

124 Comments

RiotGhostcrawlerFeb 7, 201555 votes

I know you're still thinking about this, but thematically, what's the difference between Ahri and LeBlanc? Ahri is the mobile mage with some assassin burst. LeBlanc I think is an assassin first, but I'm not sure of their differences. Then you have Xerath who is mage/assassin but I guess less mobile.

On the fighter problem, what about mage fighters such as Mordekaiser and Elise? Where do they stand thematically? Those seem like good places to start.

So clearly we have had trouble defining exactly what Ahri and LeBlanc are. It's fine if not all assassins stick people with knives, but these two frequently straddle the lines beyond that.

Xerath feels like a mage to me.

Morde feels like a fighter who is overly constrained by mana and perhaps should not be.

Elise is a challenge. A lot of the shape shifters are challenging. Does shape shifting let you change from one role to another? Is that fair? Do you give up enough for that flexibility?

LankPantsFeb 7, 201571 votes

Morde feels like a fighter who is overly constrained by mana and perhaps should not be.

Help me I'm very confused.

AuryielFeb 7, 201546 votes

Rioters don't know who Mordekaiser is

Stars ShaperFeb 11, 201510 votes

GC doesn't know, he is famous for his "knoweldge" of the games he is in

MrBuffingtonFeb 7, 201516 votes

lmao GC thinks Morde shouldn't be constrained by mana, which he isn't; problem solved. If only every change were this easy XD

Stars ShaperFeb 11, 20155 votes

You should have seen him commenting about things in WoW xD

Final Raid BossFeb 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Help me I'm very confused.

these r the people working on morde

RelliikFeb 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Help me I'm very confused.

He can't build roa or frozen heart, or any mana item because it is not efficient.

RiotGhostcrawlerFeb 3, 201528 votes

Ah the fighter problem.... :(

Yeah, we'd agree with both of those comments. If assassins and mages typically bring burst, and fighters and ADCs bring sustained damage, then there needs to be something fighters can do better than ADCs, or they are just always going to be inferior. If you make the argument that the fighter has to do even more damage than an ADC to make up for the fact that they aren't on target as much as a ranged champ, they tend to be really frustrating for both sides: they either die before they can close the gap, or they erase the other champ when they do. This, in a nutshell, is the fighter problem.

We are working on it. We think there is room for a class of champions that are as tanky as tanks, but with higher damage to make up for the engage or control of the tanks. Many fighters don't deliver on this at the moment -- they are squishier than tanks, with lower effective / realized damage than ADCs. In addition, there are several mages that play like fighters, and several fighters that play like assassins. Finally, on top of all of that work, we think fighters just need to bring more utility. It's going to be hard for guys like Darius to find a comp if what they're offering is bringing tons of damage when other champs potentially bring that as well as some kind of team benefit or buff.

It's a lot of work, which is why it has taken us so long to fix the problem. We have built up a lot of "design debt" and it takes time to dig our way out of that. We're not happy that it has taken this long, but we are happy that we feel like we have a pretty good understanding of the problem and how to fix it now.

ThryaleFeb 3, 201515 votes

I think the fighter problem is two-fold. On the one hand, you have what you mentioned, but on the other hand, you have the tanky fighers that are crowding out true tanks. I don't know if you follow Stonewall or not, but in one of his recent videos, he summarizes the problem with tanks in league.

Here, have a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3_i1TZSDGs

He has a lot of valid points (imo) and I think this also adds to the current fighter problem at present.

SmokingPuffinFeb 3, 20152 votes

Hey GC, there have been some earlier discussions where the fighter class is partitioned a bit further into "bruisers" and "light fighters". It seems like at least some of the team is thinking the fighter category is too broad and needs some refining into subclasses with more well-defined strengths and weaknesses. I think it's an interesting concept; it seems dubious that Darius and Fiora are part of the same group.

What's your take on fighter subclasses? Do you think they would add or subtract clarity from the overall game design?

5G8Nri0B54Feb 3, 20154 votes

they tend to be really frustrating for both sides: they either die before they can close the gap, or they erase the other champ when they do. This, in a nutshell, is the fighter problem.

Hold on...

You mean like Akali and Katarina !? Akali even has the benefit of being a drain tank if she's fed enough.

(or almost any other resourceless assassins really...)

JamnonFeb 4, 20152 votes

"Assassins are fine." "Fighters are not."

...what.

RetillinFeb 3, 20154 votes

{quoted}

It's a lot of work, which is why it has taken us so long to fix the problem. We have built up a lot of "design debt" and it takes time to dig our way out of that. We're not happy that it has taken this long, but we are happy that we feel like we have a pretty good understanding of the problem and how to fix it now.

I would feel better but the same thing has been said about the jungle (we all know who I am talking about) and little to no change has happened on the positive side.

Chromatic EagleFeb 3, 20154 votes

Dumb question, but it seems to play into the whole melee vs. ranged battle with game design. What's the difference between assassins and mages if they both apply burst? Ahri provides cc and the burst potential of an assassin.

I've seen you focus more on what we call bruisers. Is Sion a good direction on bruiser design? A part of the problem is that fighter is a broad role that ranges from bulky champions such as Garen, to burst cannons and melee carries such as Yasuo and Fiora. To tack on the issue, the nature of a future Diana rework is based on the idea that she's too much on the fence between fighter and assassin. A few champions are like this, including Lee Sin.

I also would like to know what your stance is on non-mana using champions. They're mostly tied to fighters and assassins, and they're one of the reasons why players are so upset at mana nerfs. What's supposed to be the disadvantage of not recalling for mana?

I feel like all of that should be addressed before continuing on a solution.

ItemsGuyFeb 3, 20155 votes

If by "fighters" we're mostly talking about what used to be called "bruisers" (ie. melee champions on the tankier end of the spectrum--Darius and Garen, as opposed to Lee Sin and Fiora), one way to add unique value to them as a role is through threat generation. You mentioned that all Darius currently brings to a team is "a lot of damage", and the way he's tuned right now, I'd be inclined to agree with you. However, stretch his current ramping period (via Hemorrhage) out a bit so that his full power is unlocked a little past halfway into the fight, and he becomes a ticking time bomb--using his durability to survive longer throughout the fight, and the threat of an impending pentakill to draw enemy focus to him (rather than any of his less durable teammates). Durable fighters in general can't just have the burst of an assassin or the DPS of a marksman, but should have some way to draw aggro towards themselves to take advantage of their natural bulk.

The lighter bruisers like Lee Sin, then, could probably be more defined by less durability-centric features, like higher mobility or range of effectiveness than tanks and bruisers (to make up for comparatively less of durability), and higher utility than marksmen and assassins (to make up for comparatively less burst/DPS output). Someone like Rek'Sai would be a good example of this.

The biggest problem with fighters, I'd say, isn't so much that they bring up the question of "Are they supposed to be for damage? Are they supposed to be tanky?" but rather the fact that so many of them answer the question of "what is your role as a fighter?" with "be REALLY STRONG" and tend to bring only raw power (either through low counterplay and mounds of raw stats like Irelia/Jax/Vi, or a little too much of everything like Lee Sin) as their contribution to the team composition, rather than something unique that can be played around by both sides--again, why Rek'Sai is my only example of a well-designed fighter.

EDIT: I'd say a lot of the confusion this topic can generate mostly comes from boiling classes down to "does X much of this thing and Y much of that thing" rather than their dynamic with the other roles, on their team and on the opposing team. For example, Marksmen bring damage. However, they are defined by the fact that they only deal damage for as long as they are protected by their team, compared to fighters who do not want their allies to be between them and their opponents. Assassins also bring damage, but their damage is directed at who the opposing team is trying to protect, rather than anyone and everyone within range (a la Marksmen). Likewise, you shouldn't focus on defining Fighters strictly by how durable they are or how much damage they deal, but rather by how they use that durability and damage to interact with the other roles on their team and their opponents' team.

Knight SoIaire Feb 21, 20151 votes

and the threat of an impending pentakill to draw enemy focus to him

the thing is that bruiser cant be a tank and thats what you basicaly make him

we need to split those guys among 2 roles that dont owerlap themselves like they do now

when you speak about bruisers and fighters you realy just diversify them among themselves

you know what is the problem but i dont think your solution adresses the problem correctly

ItemsGuyFeb 22, 20151 votes

I must not be explaining myself clearly.

The thing with roles, is that it's all a spectrum. A caster, for example, with high utility and good base power/poor scaling can often be used as a support without compromising the validity of other mages or supports (take Vel'Koz, Annie, or Zyra, for example). This can be unbalanced, however, when a caster has the utility of a support and the damage output/scaling of a mage simultaneously--it means they're not paying the price of either class while getting all the benefits, and that's problematic.

With fighters, bruisers, and tanks, you have a similar spectrum. The general qualities among these classes, spread out, are durability, damage, mobility, and utility. Tanks, who lack damage threat, protect their allies through peels (Alistar), defensive utility (Shen), initiation power/lockdown (Malphite), and so on. They're typically defined by high durability, moderate utility, moderate to low mobility, and low damage. Bruisers, on the other hand, would function somewhat similarly to a tank, except instead of directly protecting their allies by preventing enemies from dealing significant damage to them, they draw enemy fire onto themselves via threat generation. So again, the Darius example--he's durable, and in an ideal he'd have so-so damage that gradually ramps up over the course of a fight, but he has 0 mobility and heavily limited utility (a high-cooldown, short-range pull and a melee-range slow). There is very little Darius can do to directly stop you from killing his carry, but if you opt to dive past him and into his backline, you may have given him the opportunity to build up his Innate on people and start dropping ults.

So a bruiser isn't a tank in the sense that a tank is a tank (sacrificing damage for utility and sometimes mobility), but in the sense that they are using their durability to take pressure off of their less durable allies in a roundabout way. But of course, when you have bruisers that have everything a bruiser needs on top of having the extra durability and utility that a tank has, the problems start piling up (and since bruisers right now are just walking slabs of health, CC, mobility, and damage, these problems still occur--look at Vi, for example, who can deal significant damage throughout teamfights, naturally builds durability and is rewarded with it via her Innate, is extremely mobile, and can potentially initiate better than a Malphite with her guaranteed CC and point-blank Q).

Does this make a bit more sense?

Knight SoIaire Feb 22, 20151 votes

if your tanks and bruisers in the end do the same thing one might push eachother out

i get that you want them to do it diferently but their owerall purpose in a team is the same, to tank damage they will compete and one will probalby lose, kinda like it is now

ItemsGuyFeb 22, 20151 votes

pinches bridge of nose

Except the case here isn't "these two roles soak up damage and one of them can do it more effectively"--that's like saying "assassins and burst mages both like taking high-priority targets out of the fight, so only one of those roles can be viable at a time since they both do the same thing", because it doesn't take into context that assassins are typically going to bring more mobility and "selfish" utility (that only they can really take advantage of, such as stealth or Fizz's Playful/Trickster) while also needing to be more selective of their targets, while burst mages will typically either be much less mobile and have a bit less ability to save their own asses and get out of sticky situations, but in return will either have higher burst, longer range of effectiveness, greater target selection, lower downtime, AoE, and/or greater team utility. While mages are certainly in a bad spot right now (which seems to be due to assassins now having a lot of the benefits of burst casters with few of the downsides, such as comparable burst alongside mobility and safety that most mages don't have or have to give up something for), this isn't because they do "the same thing" as assassins, but rather because assassins are starting to do what assassins do while also doing things that burst mages do.

So even if the ultimate goal for both tanks and bruisers is to stop their squishies from taking the heat, they do it in different ways that individually won't go out of style any time soon. Being able to bodyblock several ults as Braum and then counterinitiate like no tomorrow will never be comparable to Darius's ticking time bomb of ult-chaining, being able to lock down an entire team as Sejuani and spamming that massive slow will never be comparable to Olaf becoming literally unpeelable and running through a full team to get to their carry, and so on. While they both might want to stop their squishies from taking the heat, as long as they do it in different ways and as long as you have a reason to choose any of these ways over the other (for example, Darius may be more useful against really tanky but comparatively lower-damage comps that like to stick together, while Braum would be much better against high-damage ambush comps that prioritize taking out your backline fast enough to make up for not bringing much durability or CC), it isn't a problem and nobody is going to get pushed out of popularity just because another role does their job better.

This, of course, isn't the case, because you have the vast majority of fighters just having the best of both worlds because the role as a whole is ill-defined, so again you have the Vis and Wukongs and Xin Zhaos that, when strong, do the tank's job of initiating or peeling or whatever while also (and sometimes simultaneously) diving in on the enemy team and wiping out their backline. This is like a support being able to set up their own kills, or a carry being tanky and full of utility while also scaling ridiculously hard into the lategame. It's not a case of "well, these two roles do the same thing, only one can be good at it at a time," it's that the things that actually do distinguish those two roles, are no longer distinguishing them because one of those roles is getting the best of both worlds while the other just kind of sulks.

So again, this is why bruisers can be different from tanks while also putting their durability to use beyond "it's arbitrarily harder to kill me!" while not somehow also running tanks out of business. It's all in the details!

Knight SoIaire Feb 22, 20151 votes

i like the way you aproach it there is no way to tell for sure how will it work, but i like it

also when i said that bruisers cant be tanks, i meant that there are problems with tanks as there are with bruisers

at the moment most of our tanks is forced to compete with bruisers in their field because the only way their kit allows them to soak the damage is by being a threat braum is an exception where his kit is made around basicaly taking all the damage he finds but most of our tanks can only force the enemy to hit them by fighing them

so changes need to go for both sides if we want them to live next to eachother

ItemsGuyFeb 22, 20151 votes

Ah, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and you mention something I completely forgot to bring up as well (the current state of tanks--especially in the jungle)!

Tanks like Braum are a breath of fresh air in a sea of tanks that are either "I initiate with my face" or "if I get close to your carry, I can probably kill them", and there needs to be great distinctions in both areas before either role is truly in a good spot. Hopefully this is addressed soon by Riot, but sweeping changes to champions in fairly populated roles (changes beyond removing J4's armor buff) is no small feat.

John BerserkFeb 4, 20154 votes

If the comparison between mages/assassins and fighters/adcs is going to be made like that, then maybe it should go something like this:

Mages and assassins typically bring burst. The main difference (apart from one usually being AP and the other being AD) is range. Mages usually bring ranged or "safe" burst, while assassins usually bring super close-ranged burst. Now from what I can tell just by thinking off the top of my head, mages typically, while having more "safe" burst options, also have less burst in general to make up for it being safer, while assassins typically have higher burst to make up for their lack of being able to do it from a safe range. (I know this is not true for all mages and assassins and for some there's even a blurry line between the two classifications but i digress)

Maybe fighters and ADC's can have the same or a similar distinction? Perhaps damage can be taken from ADCs (and I mean a LOT) and can instead be given to fighters, as compensation for not being able to deal their damage from a safe distance as ADC's can? Just think of marksmen as the "mages", and fighters as "assassins".

As an adc(and support) main, I have to acknowledge the stupid high damage/relatively low difficulty ratio of the marksman class. It's satisfying to do so much damage while not being in the middle of everything, but a lot of times I just dont see it as very fair. I think its fine some have so much mobility sometimes, but that should come at the expense of being to dish out damage, especially in the early and mid game. Late game I think there's room to have them as high damage dealers, but maybe not as much as right now.

Anyway, my point is, I think adc's and fighters could maybe be comparable to one another the same way mages and assassins are. I dont think ADC's should be allowed to have both high damage AND high mobility. Their squishiness as "compensation" is kind of moot if they cant get hit to begin with.

Also, I think fighters having more damage in general would lead to more exciting top lane fights, as opposed to the wet noodle slap fights we're so used to seeing.

JamnonFeb 4, 20152 votes

But some assassins and ADCs already bring utility...

ErockandrollFeb 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Ah the fighter problem.... :(

Yeah, we'd agree with both of those comments. If assassins and mages typically bring burst, and fighters and ADCs bring sustained damage, then there needs to be something fighters can do better than ADCs, or they are just always going to be inferior. If you make the argument that the fighter has to do even more damage than an ADC to make up for the fact that they aren't on target as much as a ranged champ, they tend to be really frustrating for both sides: they either die before they can close the gap, or they erase the other champ when they do. This, in a nutshell, is the fighter problem.

We are working on it. We think there is room for a class of champions that are as tanky as tanks, but with higher damage to make up for the engage or control of the tanks. Many fighters don't deliver on this at the moment -- they are squishier than tanks, with lower effective / realized damage than ADCs. In addition, there are several mages that play like fighters, and several fighters that play like assassins. Finally, on top of all of that work, we think fighters just need to bring more utility. It's going to be hard for guys like Darius to find a comp if what they're offering is bringing tons of damage when other champs potentially bring that as well as some kind of team benefit or buff.

It's a lot of work, which is why it has taken us so long to fix the problem. We have built up a lot of "design debt" and it takes time to dig our way out of that. We're not happy that it has taken this long, but we are happy that we feel like we have a pretty good understanding of the problem and how to fix it now.

The thing with Bruisers, or Tanky fighters I recall is that they definitely do the tanks job better. Because you replace CC with sustained damage as a means to harry the enemy. and it gives them a better laning phase than their tank counterpart. And I see then lose power when the anti kiting mechanisms on Randuins got removed.

The one Idea I would like to explore is a CC fighter. (light fighter) A champion with moderate defenses, with not as much defensive scalling, Relying more Their CC for damage mitigation. (their not being attack when their opponent is stuned.) giving them high energy kits while they build for sustained damage. Right now, the closes champion to this Riven. (and actually she hits it dead on.)

warpenguin555Feb 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ah the fighter problem.... :(

Yeah, we'd agree with both of those comments. If assassins and mages typically bring burst, and fighters and ADCs bring sustained damage, then there needs to be something fighters can do better than ADCs, or they are just always going to be inferior. If you make the argument that the fighter has to do even more damage than an ADC to make up for the fact that they aren't on target as much as a ranged champ, they tend to be really frustrating for both sides: they either die before they can close the gap, or they erase the other champ when they do. This, in a nutshell, is the fighter problem.

We are working on it. We think there is room for a class of champions that are as tanky as tanks, but with higher damage to make up for the engage or control of the tanks. Many fighters don't deliver on this at the moment -- they are squishier than tanks, with lower effective / realized damage than ADCs. In addition, there are several mages that play like fighters, and several fighters that play like assassins. Finally, on top of all of that work, we think fighters just need to bring more utility. It's going to be hard for guys like Darius to find a comp if what they're offering is bringing tons of damage when other champs potentially bring that as well as some kind of team benefit or buff.

It's a lot of work, which is why it has taken us so long to fix the problem. We have built up a lot of "design debt" and it takes time to dig our way out of that. We're not happy that it has taken this long, but we are happy that we feel like we have a pretty good understanding of the problem and how to fix it now.

i thought that the problem was that most of them were overpowered due to trying to balance them with the original Xin Zhao and Irelia. Is that not true?

SmokingPuffinFeb 3, 201514 votes

The core problem with fighters is that they tend to win by having more stats than the other guy. Your typical bruiser kit from the Xin Zhao era features a pile of free stats, a targeted gap closer, some button for sticking to the target, and a steroid to do more damage when you get there. Lots of champions are designed like this -- examples include Irelia, Renekton, Pantheon, Fora, and Jax. Really, there's a lot of them.

The problem with this kit is that it basically plays itself. Nobody makes highlight videos of awesome Renekton plays. He doesn't outplay and he doesn't get outplayed. To beat him in a duel, you need a statistical advantage. This is why top lane was decided at first blood for so long -- if Irelia is behind a Jax, there is no possible sequence of plays that wins her a 1v1 fight. The same isn't true of Ahri versus LeBlanc in the mid lane or Ezreal versus Graves in the bot lane, where the behind player can position better, land more skillshots, get free autos, and so on.

Not all fighters have this problem. You'll notice that some of the exceptions are Riot's favorite children; champions like Lee Sin and Jarvan have skillshots, mobility, and trading tools that let them avoid the "more stats wins" problem. As a result, Riot really likes making sure they are viable picks.

Riot was never specific about what they "promised". The fighter project, a series of reworks for all of these standard bruiser kit champions, remains the highest value design target in the back catalog of League design. However, there is a serious problem executing it; you see, players love picking low-counterplay champions. If you start reworking the fighters one at a time to have more play and more counterplay, people will concentrate their picks on the few remaining low counterplay dudes until there are none left. Why would you want a kit that can be outplayed if you don't have to take one? So, that means releasing something like 20 champions at the same time...but Riot only has the budget to make about 12 major champion releases a year.

I think this, more than anything else, is why the fighter project has been mothballed and many bruisers are stuck in purgatory.

MotherChurchFeb 3, 20151 votes

I think this is sort of true.... except maybe Irelia. I feel like Irelia has a lot of outplay potential with her stun + ability to kite around with Q. Irelia has the best kit of any of the fighters out there and, I think, really does not need a change.

CuixFeb 3, 20154 votes

Irelia's kit is one of the main reasons this "ball of stats" problem got so bad in the first place. She defined top lane for years, and therefore defined fighter designs.

MotherChurchFeb 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Irelia's kit is one of the main reasons this "ball of stats" problem got so bad in the first place. She defined top lane for years, and therefore defined fighter designs.

I guess I just don't see the problem then.

SmokingPuffinFeb 3, 20154 votes

The problem is more visible if you are playing another bruiser against Irelia.

If Irelia gets ahead of you, it's over. Doesn't matter how good you are at getting maximum value from your trades. There's nothing to juke and no way to win a trade. She has more sustain, more hp, and more damage than you, so you're going to be cowering under turret until your jungler comes or the lane phase ends.

Compare that to the case where Ahri is ahead of LeBlanc. Sure, LeBlanc loses fights if both play equally well, but LeBlanc has tons of potential to make Ahri miss a skillshot or take uncontested damage because she got caught out of position. First blood ends bruiser lanes in a way it doesn't end mage, assassin, or marksman lanes.

KingsgraveFeb 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The problem is more visible if you are playing another bruiser against Irelia.

If Irelia gets ahead of you, it's over. Doesn't matter how good you are at getting maximum value from your trades. There's nothing to juke and no way to win a trade. She has more sustain, more hp, and more damage than you, so you're going to be cowering under turret until your jungler comes or the lane phase ends.

Compare that to the case where Ahri is ahead of LeBlanc. Sure, LeBlanc loses fights if both play equally well, but LeBlanc has tons of potential to make Ahri miss a skillshot or take uncontested damage because she got caught out of position. First blood ends bruiser lanes in a way it doesn't end mage, assassin, or marksman lanes.

I don't feel like they have learned from this though with champions like Gnar.

There is little you can actually do about his Mega form Combo at all and the windows of vulnerability in Mini form aren't great or long enough.

lojicianFeb 4, 20153 votes

This is the excuse riot gave and it's never been true. Irelia vs jax used to be one of the best skill matchups in the game. Fighters have to take a lot of situational stuff into account and try to manipulate the lane to trade favorably with other fighters. Much more so than xerath has to to spam Q at you or leblanc has to during her 2 second engage after which she teleports back out of minion aggro. It's never been 'irelia walks up to jax completely ignoring creeps, they both start beating on each other mindlessly, and stats happen'. Being snowbally is not the same as being skill-less.

There are more types of 1v1/laning skill than "who can land more skillshots".

SmokingPuffinFeb 4, 20151 votes

Fighters have to take a lot of situational stuff into account and try to manipulate the lane to trade favorably with other fighters.

The kinds of wave manipulation trading tricks top laners use stop working after first blood.

I don't deny there is significant skill in interacting with minions in melee-melee lane matchups, but it's such an unstable setup. Bruiser lanes offer the behind player very little counterplay.

lojicianFeb 4, 20151 votes

First off it's not true that a single kill or even 2 makes it impossible to outplay 1v1 fighter situations. And while there are fewer possibilities to completely whiff fighter skills, skill timing and kiting out losing instances in exchanges is coupled with situational use of creeps. I know you didn't directly say all the complexity was creep manipulation I just wanted to add this.

Even accepting that fighter lanes snowball harder that's not the same thing as them generally being decided by stats. Again snowbally =/= skill-less. And if it really comes down to it I question whether more fed mages or in particular adcs lose duels by being 'outplayed' by their counterpart too much more often than fighters do.

SmokingPuffinFeb 4, 20153 votes

And while there are fewer possibilities to completely whiff fighter skills, skill timing and kiting out losing instances in exchanges is coupled with situational use of creeps.

It's a fair point. I do have to question why we should put up with low outplay fighter kits though. Seems like everyone gets happier when fighters get to make flashy plays and can miss their stuff. Certainly we know that the high outplay fighter kits (e.g. Lee Sin, Jarvan, Riven) are quite popular among fighter players. Part of that is a power level thing, for sure, but I really think we have room to make fighters feel better than they do today.

Again snowbally =/= skill-less.

Certainly agreed. Concretely, LeBlanc snowballs hard, but stays hard to play the whole time.

I don't even think "decided by stats more than plays" is a skill-less experience. Knowing when you will have the advantage and timing your engages correctly is a very technical thing that's easy to get wrong.

I just think it can be better.

I question whether more fed mages or in particular adcs lose duels by being 'outplayed' by their counterpart too much more often than fighters do.

The problem with the fighter lane case is that interesting fights just stop happening. We get two basic scenarios:

High sustain "wet noodle fights" - these happen when sustain is systemically too high; neither side gets kill potential and it's not very interesting.
Low sustain lane dominance - If you fix the wet noodle problem, you end up with a lane that doesn't feature any fighting. The behind player knows there is no realistic prospect of victory, so they huddle under turret and gradually get pushed down.

Neither of these play patterns is very fun. I'd like to find a way for fighters to actually fight meaningful fights, that either side might win, more often.

Turns out that the melee versus ranged matchup is an even bigger problem for most melees -- very few melees have the outplay potential to match up with a competent ranged laner, which results in the lane being a sustain versus damage stats contest. Again, same core problem -- insufficient play/counterplay tools in the typical bruiser kit. Someone like Lee Sin can handle it, but Jax just wants to toss his keyboard in disgust.

lojicianFeb 4, 20153 votes

Making or even reworking fighters into higher variability designs is ok. Deciding "forget this whole gameplay pattern we're going to completely screw them over and let other archetypes push them out of the only lane they're ever used in until we deem their state acceptable" is not.

The 'wet noodle fight' thing isn't really true particularly in lane. Renekton and shyvana are completely capable of seriously hurting/killing each other quickly until they both have multiple tank items (I do always rush tiamat so that has something to do with it but the point is I can opt out of a wet noodle lane). Ideally riot would balance many aggressive laners so they were all capable of killing each other through whatever their strength is (all in power vs sustain or w/e). I don't think this is inherently impossible or anything but they ended up cyclicly nerfing whatever the 'best' top laner was until they were just left with renekton chasing whoever else around while they outscaled him.

SmokingPuffinFeb 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Making or even reworking fighters into higher variability designs is ok. Deciding "forget this whole gameplay pattern we're going to completely screw them over and let other archetypes push them out of the only lane they're ever used in until we deem their state acceptable" is not.

I think any rework of fighter gameplay patterns will only result in fighters becoming more viable and more popular. Right now we have a ton of fighters in purgatory because Riot doesn't like their kits.

I really hope no one is thinking that we shouldn't have tanky dps in the game. Strikes me as a dumb design decision to make. I want bruisers, I just don't want their kits to be so linear.

The 'wet noodle fight' thing isn't really true particularly in lane. Renekton and shyvana are completely capable of seriously hurting/killing each other quickly until they both have multiple tank items (I do always rush tiamat so that has something to do with it but the point is I can opt out of a wet noodle lane).

You only really get wet noodle fights in the lane phase when it's two tank champions. Certainly not Renekton vs Shyvana.

Riot has largely sidestepped the wet noodle issue by nerfing sustain to the point that we never reach noodle phase. It's more a historical problem. Of course, the side effect of this is putting ranged champions on the top of the top lane food chain because, as mentioned before, most bruiser vs ranged lanes devolve into a stats competition between sustain and damage.

I don't think this is inherently impossible or anything but they ended up cyclicly nerfing whatever the 'best' top laner was until they were just left with renekton chasing whoever else around while they outscaled him.

The history of top lane balance is generally quite stupid. Part of that is flat out bad tactical decisions on Riot's part. Part of that is that bruiser kits don't have as many levers as other kits.

One of the key problems of bruiser balance is that bruiser kits tend to be quite samey. That leads to dominance by whoever is epsilon higher on the power level chart.

We had this for a while with the ADC role too. Even now it's not perfect, as pairs like Lucian/Graves are too close together for proper niches to exist. Still, Riot has made a lot of progress in terms of giving you reasons to pick different ADCs beyond "this one is a little better at everything right now", and I'd like to see a similar evolution in bruisers.

lojicianFeb 4, 20152 votes

"Right now we have a ton of fighters in purgatory because Riot doesn't like their kits."

The point is that this isn't acceptable. The kits weren't causing problems in the broader game, they weren't even particularly good compared to champions in other classes. Riot just decided fighter players could screw themselves while riot screwed around for a year.

RiotGhostcrawlerFeb 6, 201512 votes

Is there a certain approach you guys plan on taking? Itemization or just looking at the champs one by one?

The first thing we did was spell out explicitly what each role is supposed to be good at and bad at (and with more granularity than just that). Perhaps surprisingly, we had never really done that before. Roles up until recently were more of a designation of theme than function in a fight. We had vague ideas that tanks are good at initiation and bad at burst damage, but we hadn't gone through the exercise of comparing their initiation (Best in the game? Not as good as an assassin?) and otherwise defining what they are weak or mediocre at doing.

Step two is to identify which champions break those guidelines, typically by not having the weaknesses they should. To be clear, it's okay to have some "rule breakers" in the name of diversity and it helps keep the champions from feeling too generic (which is a big problem among the fighters right now IMO -- again talking about function not their art or story or personality). But at least we will go into these rule breakers knowing that they are breaking rules instead of stumbling into it sideways, and we can find other weaknesses to compensate. If Ryze is going to be a tanky mage, that's fine, but he can't just be a mage with no weaknesses.

Step three is to go through the entire champion roster and adjust those champs that don't have the correct strengths or weaknesses (including the possibility of rule breakers in here). Items would have to be a part of this, because there are definitely items that let you capitalize on your strengths or help mitigate your weaknesses. It's cool when items do that, and we're fine with it, but it needs to come with trade-offs. It's really hard to have counterplay when you can just itemize your champ out of its weaknesses without giving up anything.

This is the kind of thing I think you guys would be really interested in hearing more about, because it's kind of cool, because we hope it will fix some of the long-standing problems we've had with champion design, and because you will no doubt have strong opinions on it. First we need to make sure everyone internally is aligned with this strategy. It would suck for them to see a few of us post it publicly before they even had a chance to weigh in.

HellioningFeb 6, 20152 votes

Yes, please. I would really like to know about stuff like that, since the class balance in this game is...kinda screwy.

DEmperor95Feb 6, 20152 votes

How challenging do you think the task of clearly identifying the strengths and weaknesses of each role would be? How long do you think building those guidelines would take?

Chromatic EagleFeb 6, 20154 votes

Is there anything we can do to help? Like give feedback or something?

Linna ExcelFeb 6, 20153 votes

The first thing we did was spell out explicitly what each role is supposed to be good at and bad at (and with more granularity than just that). Perhaps surprisingly, we had never really done that before. Roles up until recently were more of a designation of theme than function in a fight. We had vague ideas that tanks are good at initiation and bad at burst damage, but we hadn't gone through the exercise of comparing their initiation (Best in the game? Not as good as an assassin?) and otherwise defining what they are weak or mediocre at doing.

Ghostcrawler, either here, in a new post, or in a dev blog could you talk specifically about these roles to the players and how champs with multiple roles are handled? Maybe give us a breakdown of the numbers of champs by role and talk about which ones are the extremes or the ideals of each group?

FinnicalFeb 6, 20152 votes

Personally I would really like to see the solutions you guys come up with land on the PBE for much longer than things usually stay there. It sounds like this stuff could redefine the meta and several champions identities/roles. I'm excited about the concept, it could breathe new life into league if done correctly.

RiotGhostcrawlerFeb 6, 20158 votes

Dumb question, but it seems to play into the whole melee vs. ranged battle with game design. What's the difference between assassins and mages if they both apply burst? Ahri provides cc and the burst potential of an assassin.

It's okay to have different ways to accomplish the same goal. When you think about it, your team can only have 5 champs, so you can't take one of every role. Maybe mages burst at range and assassins burst closer in, or it's okay for mages to have control but assassins shouldn't.

Chromatic EagleFeb 6, 20151 votes

I know you're still thinking about this, but thematically, what's the difference between Ahri and LeBlanc? Ahri is the mobile mage with some assassin burst. LeBlanc I think is an assassin first, but I'm not sure of their differences. Then you have Xerath who is mage/assassin but I guess less mobile.

On the fighter problem, what about mage fighters such as Mordekaiser and Elise? Where do they stand thematically? Those seem like good places to start.

MrBuffingtonFeb 6, 20154 votes

I'm not Ghostcrawler, but unless Ahri has DFG (RIP), her assassination/burst comes out much more slowly, and is more AoE focused. LeBlanc also can do a lot of AoE damage, but she's much more about singling out one target and just deleting them from the face of the earth. I think Xerath is classified as an assassin only because of him sniping people with his ult.

RiotGhostcrawlerFeb 6, 20158 votes

Ghostcrawler, either here, in a new post, or in a dev blog could you talk specifically about these roles to the players and how champs with multiple roles are handled? Maybe give us a breakdown of the numbers of champs by role and talk about which ones are the extremes or the ideals of each group?

Yeah, we definitely want to do that. It will be a fun discussion. We just want to make sure the idea is well socialized here at first so that the team as a whole feels like they are behind the basic idea.

It's also fine if champs can fill multiple roles, so long as there are tradeoffs. A tanky mage can't just pool together all of the advantages of two classes, or they are just going to be too good. Perhaps they have to build different items and runes, or perhaps they give up something else (CC for example).

RiotGhostcrawlerFeb 6, 20157 votes

Champions like Vi, Irelia, and Xin Zhao can build either all damage or bruiser, even though they're labeled fighter/assassin. Lee Sin as well. Are these champions that you'd rework as bruisers, or make them more vulnerable for an assassination secondary role?

We recognize that there are (at least) two types of fighters -- the less mobile and more mobile type. This has led to a host of problems before because if Vi is just as tanky with just as much damage as (choose your less mobile fighter here), then why would you not choose her? Those mobile fighters need to give up something relative to the less-mobile dudes.