So um, what is the counterplay to late game 3 shot kill Vayne?

LeBrõnze James·Aug 10, 2017·6 votes·998 views

Especially when she's surrounded by tanky meatheads with high cc.

What do you do, just lose?

23 Comments

nm1010Aug 10, 20178 votes

You let a late game carry reach late game and are complaining about them being strong... The question isn't "How do I handle Vayne late game" it is "How do I prevent Vayne from reaching late game".

Dirty BastardAug 10, 20171 votes

This

AFilthyCaitMainAug 10, 20171 votes

This

NyarlathοtepAug 10, 20171 votes

Ye because her early game is pretty difficult /s

nm1010Aug 10, 20173 votes

Low range, no sustain, low base damage please tell me how that makes for an easy early game?

NyarlathοtepAug 10, 2017

Low range

Eh true

no sustain

Actually, if my memory serves me well, no adc has innate sustain. But all of them have access to bloodlust.

low base damage

Actually she has next to none base dmg. The only base dmg she has its her e. In exchange for almost no base dmg she has max hp% true dmg in every 3rd aa on the same target. She also has a low range, very low cd, meaning in theory (and most of the time) and in practice she should be able to evade very god damn skillshot unless she is cced. And she has access to stealth thx to her ulti, helping her reposition herself with almost no effort since you cant reveal her UNLESS you have some specific champs. She also has stupidly strong powerspikes, either statik or botrk.

PennsAug 10, 20173 votes

Why does "late game scaling" mean "no counterplay allowed late game" for you tho? lul

nm1010Aug 10, 20171 votes

She does have counterplay, instead of just calling OP wrong I tried to teach him to use critical thinking skills to avoid similar questions in the future. Do you need me to point out point and click cc or the mentioned long range poke mages that are talked about on this same thread?

PennsAug 10, 20171 votes

I guess every champ has counterplay, just point and click cc them and blow them up hehe

Why does Rito even worry about it now with stuff like Jhins reload time, skillshots and outplayable mechanics like Xayah E? Old 0 counterplay champs like Jax and Annie are fine anyway summoner 1

nm1010Aug 10, 20171 votes

I feel like you are needlessly salty.

PennsAug 10, 20171 votes

Not salty, just wonder why people say 100% auto attack champs like Vayne have counterplay beyond "cc and try to burst her". She isnt strong rn, but that can change fast, same happened with Tristana

nm1010Aug 10, 20171 votes

Having weak points in the game is another valid counterplay option, camping Vayne is a completely viable way to shut her down.

As for Tristana I do think she is a bit too safe for what she brings to the table, but I'm also pretty sure she is doing really well right now due to how strong supports are. A problem that she could share with Vayne in the near future since a strong support makes for a very easy laning phase.

Edit: It is also worth noting that Caitlyn getting gutted helped both of these champs tremendously.

PennsAug 10, 20171 votes

It works as counterplay ingame but its not really enough. For example what was the last champ Riot released that doesnt really have "counterplay" (to their damage/cc)? Kindred, 2 years ago, I guess if you dont count her ult as having counterplay. If you do count it, it would be.. Volibear, almost 6 years ago.

TheSingularityAug 11, 20171 votes

Just using quote box to split shit up.

While vayne isn't even close to the early game monsters like cait and draven, she's far from the power curve of kog maw.

Her laning phase is very safe, with 2 last hit tools, a low CD spell to dodge and a near instant disengage should someone jump on you. Her range is her only counter early on. And only the 2 for-mentioned champions truly make a huge impact because of it (massive single shots when she goes to last hit) while others have to whittle her down in trades, they themselves getting whittled down.

I find that if you don't have an early game monster of both an adc and support, vayne will simply play passive in the same manner a yorick defeats a darius. Sit back, sacrifice CS, sacrifice XP and the tower if it comes to that. Because no matter what, you'll certainly win if they don't do it first. All she needs is time.

Counter picks are not counterplay. Especially if there're so few of them. If YOU MUST! win before a certain power spike/time, then there's a problem with the champion.

Just going with the counter play discussion below. Vayne lacks counterplay not because she's AA only, but because most of the agency of her death is on the vayne, the rest on the champion you're playing. She has to mis position, has to mess up her E, her tumble, cancel an auto perhaps. Basically make a big mistake and even then she may not die. The rest of it is a stat check and the champion you have picked. The is similar to darius, in that there're many match ups that he will dominate. But the yorick match up, darius can't do shit even with jungler help. And it turns into a 1v1 or 1v2 stat check where yorick wins just because he is yorick.

Vayne does this to. She wins because she's vayne. Not because she out played or more skilled. Because she is vayne

nm1010Aug 11, 20171 votes

If you position well and land your abilities she is perfectly fine counterplay wise. Range and predictability is a valid form of counterplay, even if you are not easily able to punish it. You compare her to Darius when nobody in high elo complains of Darius being a stat check because he is able to be kited and/or being shut down early. As for her level 6 power spike there are plenty of ways to avoid fighting her, my absolute favorite as an assassin player is an early lane swap when bot lane hits level 6. That puts me at level 8-9ish and a complete item vs squishy Vayne, or she has to go middle and miss the opportunity to use her powerspike in a long lane (AKA rotational counterplay).

Counter picks are not counterplay. Especially if there're so few of them. If YOU MUST! win before a certain power spike/time, then there's a problem with the champion.

I don't mean to change the subject, but it also dawned on me that almost every single assassin is the opposite design of this. You have to win within a few minutes of a 1-2 item powerspike or you fall off incredibly hard, is that a problem? Because Riot just forced it down our throats with the assassin update.

TheSingularityAug 12, 20171 votes

I don't mean to change the subject, but it also dawned on me that almost every single assassin is the opposite design of this. You have to win within a few minutes of a 1-2 item powerspike or you fall off incredibly hard, is that a problem? Because Riot just forced it down our throats with the assassin update

yes that is a problem. Look at Pantheon . He and many other champs are "feast of famine" which is an extremely unhealthy gameplay pattern. They get ahead, stay ahead, stay ahead, stay ahead and stay ahead some more. But if that doesn't happen then it truly does suck to be in the game, may as well leave at that point as you're only gold for the enemy team

Riot forced it down ur throat because (my interpretation) they were generally one dimensional and them being in range meant you got a grey screen. Many didn't require full use of their kit to achieve this, not even zed and the above situation occurred. they got ahead and stayed ahead.

Riot simply made it so it was easier to throw and assassin of their throne and more difficult to get onto it. While it is a poor solution it allows assassins to still decimate champs but unlike pre assassin update, where it was "they gonna hit 6 and then it's time to feed", there's more agency on the victim in the outcome of an assassination.

KoKobotoAug 10, 20174 votes

Play some stuff like Ziggs or Xerath and just snipe them till they deadd

invisiblecat1Aug 10, 20171 votes

The only real counterplay is to force her to play like a regular ADC If she dives in for assassination attempts, just kill her Unless her team is really coordinated, and tanky meatheads with high cc follow her, she will die instantly Other than that don't let her hit late game

MFTORANK1Aug 10, 20171 votes

In your last ranked game you had a vayne on your team that did 73K dmg and that was full build and you still lost ? ? ? ? ? What are you even complaining about lol !