We could use some "aggressive ap support" items

chipndip1·Aug 24, 2016·4 votes·2,730 views

So we have support items for tanks, and we finally have pretty good itemization for enchantresses (unless Bard's one, then I'd say "Enchanters", but I doubt he is...). So...where does that leave support options like Brand/Zyra/Lux/Vel'Koz? I mean, if you're trying to build ap, because that's mainly what they're good at, the support items that offer it are rather lousy for that (FQC, possibly Zeke's, some items that give shield/heal effects when only Lux can possibly use them, and even she'd rather not). I think a cool way to spice up the role and increase possible supporting options would be to add some items for more aggressive, kill-oriented supports so they don't have to spend 3k per item. >_>

Thoughts?

51 Comments

Fuh QueueAug 24, 20165 votes

We really don't need any more of a reason to encourage people to play "support" champions. No thanks

chipndip1Aug 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fuh Queue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FPyktcA6,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-08-24T17:06:16.722+0000)

We really don't need any more of a reason to encourage people to play "support" champions. No thanks

But that's what I mean: These would be items with like, eh, 50/60 ap with passive/active effects that aid in fighting and damage dealing in some way or another, like cc/DoT/burst dmg/GW applications/whatever. With EotW as a Sightstone, we could finally add legitimacy to those that want to support via dealing "tons of dmg". That's the logic, anyway.

Sightless66Aug 24, 20166 votes

And what would stop any other mage from building these items? I want to do lots of damage for an efficient price if i'm playing midlane. We already saw fqc dominate the midlane when it was strong. What would prevent these items from doing the same?

The current system works fine. Mage supports are in a good place. They have plenty of legitimacy. They can itemize for damage if they want by paying the same price for damage as everyone else. Just as tank supports can't be as tanky as top lane tanks, support mages can't do as much damage as midlane mages. It's fine.

chipndip1Aug 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

And what would stop any other mage from building these items? I want to do lots of damage for an efficient price if i'm playing midlane. We already saw fqc dominate the midlane when it was strong. What would prevent these items from doing the same?

The current system works fine. Mage supports are in a good place. They have plenty of legitimacy. They can itemize for damage if they want by paying the same price for damage as everyone else. Just as tank supports can't be as tanky as top lane tanks, support mages can't do as much damage as midlane mages. It's fine.

FQC dominated mid lane because the utility it provided was stupid strong, so mid laners basically had their own homing Ashe-lite button. FQC being strong had very little to do with outputting damage. It had everything to do with its gold generation and its slow's power.

And yea, you say the current system works fine, but here's the thing: It isn't. Locket is excessively strong, and affordable itemization for support options that primarily seek to support through damage dealing is nearly non-existent. Like what's the point in having ap scalings on supports if most of them build like one Ardent Censor at most? If we want to play more into those scalings for reasons other than shielding/healing, there should be a competitive option for it, rather than the option that blatantly takes advantage of the chaos of ranked's unorganized environment.

Sightless66Aug 24, 20163 votes

FQC dominated mid lane because the utility it provided was stupid strong

I don't think that's a sufficient answer. My entire point was that midlaners were willing to buy a support item when it was strong enough. Yeah, they got it for utility, but it's because the utility made it effectively extremely efficient for the price. They'll do the same thing for damage.

What you're proposing is to make cheap AP items that are efficient for the price. It's the same problem. How are you going to keep them from competing with midlane items? If it's cost-efficient for a support, why wouldn't it be cost-efficient for a midlaner. If it's not cost-efficient, why would a support buy them?

You have to answer this question. You're proposing cost-efficient damage. Why wouldn't a midlaner buy cost-efficient damage? Do you have a solution to this problem?

affordable itemization for support options that primarily seek to support through damage dealing is nearly non-existent

And yet, all the champions who would benefit from this itemization as supports are doing fine as supports. Brand, Zyra, Vel'koz: good supports. All have seen LCS play as supports this season and last season. All do great in solo queue.

there should be a competitive option for it

There is. It's called "buying AP". It works great at all skill levels outside of LCS play. In the LCS, all support builds are limited, just like everything is limited in competitive play. This is a minor problem, and doesn't affect you and me.

Locket is excessively strong

This is an entirely separate problem, and it's one that Riot has specifically said that they want to address in the preseason.

redfeenixAug 24, 20163 votes

Here is my aggressive AP support build: item 3089 item 3092 item 3116 item 3135 item 3030 item 3151 item 3361

chipndip1Aug 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Here is my aggressive AP support build:

Now how many of those are affordable on a support budget, assuming you aren't snatching a ton of kills?

That entire build, which even lacks EotW/Boots, is littered with 3k+ items. You'll never see full build.

redfeenixAug 24, 20163 votes

Well thats the FINAL build. But yeh usually I jsut start building AP and killing bot lane over and over again with my carry. After I'm done farming them, I usually roam mid for some ganks etc.

AP supports are awesome because they ahve so much damage and CC. I'm not sure what sort of items you're asking for tbh

Lost RAug 24, 20161 votes

I do. Regularly.

Lost RAug 24, 20163 votes

That's kind of the downside to being an artillery support. You're not going to keep pace with your midlane counterparts. I focus less on sheer killing power and more on overwhelming volume. Why atomize a single house when you can turn the entire block to rubble?

Realize that anything a support can buy, other roles can buy, too. That's what makes making items for the support role so difficult.

AstôlfoAug 24, 20162 votes

The point is to not be damage-oriented. That's what the ADC is for. You are there to offer utility. Don't like it? Don't play a mid-lane mage that needs a lot of gold in support then.

OleandervineAug 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The point is to not be damage-oriented. That's what the ADC is for. You are there to offer utility. Don't like it? Don't play a mid-lane mage that needs a lot of gold in support then.

The point of peel, sustain, and utility supports is to not be damage oriented. Poke supports support by damaging the opponent and creating kill lanes that are easy for your ADC to kill the enemies. They focus on either heavily damaging enemies and forcing them to back, or for those enemies who stupidly refuse to recall, they set up very easy kills for your ADC at all levels of the game. With a peel support like Janna or Nautilus, you set up a kill with CC. With a utility support like Bard or Zilean, you set up kills by offering maneuverability and protection. With a sustain support like Soraka or Nami, you help by zoning and making sure your ADC outlives the enemy onslaught. Know your support types before making baseless assumptions like this about a role.

chipndip1Aug 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The point is to not be damage-oriented. That's what the ADC is for. You are there to offer utility. Don't like it? Don't play a mid-lane mage that needs a lot of gold in support then.

Riot said they support things like support Zyra and Brand, right? Well what's their itemization going to be? They don't offer heals and shields like Sona or Lux or Morgana or whoever else may. Their main contribution, even as support options, is damage. Just like how we're starting to get assassin-specific itemization, should we on one hand say "We support the ability of more damage-oriented options going into the support role" while on the other hand say "We have no itemization for a play style we say we support"?
Zyra isn't a mid-lane mage. Riot said she's a support first, mid-laner second, while Brand is the opposite. However, the fuck should she build? Everything's expensive as sin for her. Same for other mages that want a more offensive style of play. How is that fair?
I'm not saying "Give them a 2.5k gold Deathcap". I'm saying "Give them legit itemization options that fit for someone picking someone like Lux/Zyra/Brand/Vel'Koz in the support role".

AmelieAug 24, 20162 votes

The core items for support Zyra and Brand is item 3116 item 3151 . This is literally all they need in order to contribute significant damage to their team. It also happens to provide great utility through the slows. What more do they need as supports?? They have access to literally every AP item in the game. They don't even need the expensive stuff like Deathcap - stacking magic penetration works great and is cheaper.

There's also item 3041 which can work great on certain AP supports - Lux, for example. Gives tons of AP for a small cost.

chipndip1Aug 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The core items for support Zyra and Brand is . This is literally all they need in order to contribute significant damage to their team. It also happens to provide great utility through the slows. What more do they need as supports?? They have access to literally every AP item in the game. They don't even need the expensive stuff like Deathcap - stacking magic penetration works great and is cheaper.

There's also which can work great on certain AP supports - Lux, for example. Gives tons of AP for a small cost.

That core costs 6.4k. In that time, you can build almost 3 REAL support items. Tack on EotW + Sorc boots and you're looking at a 9.7k price tag for 2 items + vision + boots. As a support. Meanwhile someone like Janna/Soraka/Sona/Nami/whoever that isn't building full-on mid laner builds is going to be working on their 3rd item (excluding vision + boots), especially if they opt for cheaper boots.

Like, I love how these boards complain about support players that forgo buying support items in favor of building mid laner items, then when someone comes along and says "We should have items that better fit those champs/that play style that still have a supportive element to them, so wanting to hurt people isn't an excuse to forgo building something support-y", that person now catches downvotes and "we already have that". These boards are priceless.

AmelieAug 25, 20161 votes

"REAL" support items are for the "REAL" supports. If you're picking an AP mage-designed-for-mid-lane "support", you're there for the damage, not to provide the utility of a Janna/Soraka/etc. You are actually looking for kills, and will have extra gold that a regular support will not have. Otherwise you picked your AP mage for the wrong reasons.

They've already tacked on AP to a bunch of support items, so I'm not sure what you are looking for. Do you have a specific idea? Keep in mind they will never make support items give significant amounts of AP, otherwise mid laners (or others) will buy them.

item 3504 - 60 AP item 3060 - 60 AP item 2301 - 25 AP item 3092 - 50 AP item 3050 - 50 AP

You don't get to do Tons of Damage™ for a cheap price and also provide the same amount of utility as regular supports. That would be ridiculously strong. Why do you think they had/have to change Sona so much?

chipndip1Aug 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"REAL" support items are for the "REAL" supports. If you're picking an AP mage-designed-for-mid-lane "support", you're there for the damage, not to provide the utility of a Janna/Soraka/etc. You are actually looking for kills, and will have extra gold that a regular support will not have. Otherwise you picked your AP mage for the wrong reasons.

So Zyra and Brand just falls off the planet now?

They've already tacked on AP to a bunch of support items, so I'm not sure what you are looking for. Do you have a specific idea? Keep in mind they will never make support items give significant amounts of AP, otherwise mid laners (or others) will buy them.

- 60 AP

I swear to Christ it's like you guys don't read. Like period. The point of this thread is to say that "Hey, itemization options for those that aren't looking to build heals and shields, but are still looking to build ap, aren't that great. Everyone and their damn mother mentions this fucking Censor. Literally what is wrong with you guys?

- 60 AP

That's one

- 25 AP

You could have said "FQC line" or something. You can't build this and an FQC. Still, it's a thing.

- 50 AP

Read above

- 50 AP

Everyone builds 80% - 100% crit now, making the active significantly less valuable.

You don't get to do Tons of Damage™ for a cheap price and also provide the same amount of utility as regular supports. That would be ridiculously strong. Why do you think they had/have to change Sona so much?

No one's saying give me 80 ap on a low budget. I'm saying "give me more options to build into my scalings with". This type of confusion and headache doesn't happen to tank supports because tank items are all around that 2.5k - 2.9k range. They can pick nearly WHATEVER they wanna take after finishing up their cdr because it's a decent price range and it offers what they're looking for: more tankiness. For mage styled supports, if I want more ap, why am I looking at the 3k+ range? This thread is merely calling for weaker and cheaper options for building ap that'd actually make sense if you're not an enchantress support.

AmelieAug 25, 20161 votes

Look, I play mage supports myself. I am having no issues building AP items, including the Rylai/Liandry's core for Zyra and Brand. I'm guessing others aren't having issues, either.

item 3001 item 3165 item 3027 item 3135 item 3157 item 3041 - ALL under 3000g! All with varying amounts of utility! The other AP items are at 3.2k (if you exclude deathcap)... it's not a huge difference.

Weaker AP options would be just that - weak. Weak AP items on a mage support just makes them... you guessed it... weak.

I ask again, WHAT kind of AP items are you looking for that don't exist already? Would love to hear about a description or idea here.

chipndip1Aug 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Look, I play mage supports myself. I am having no issues building AP items, including the Rylai/Liandry's core for Zyra and Brand. I'm guessing others aren't having issues, either.

- ALL under 3000g! All with varying amounts of utility! The other AP items are at 3.2k (if you exclude deathcap)... it's not a huge difference.

Weaker AP options would be just that - weak. Weak AP items on a mage support just makes them... you guessed it... weak.

I ask again, WHAT kind of AP items are you looking for that don't exist already? Would love to hear about a description or idea here.

As far as I can tell, you play those champs mid more than you do support to begin with. Maybe that's why you're having a hard time realizing a few things:

Anyone building an item that gives max mana over mana regen as a support, unless you're doing the very thing I described as something supports aren't aiming to do (snatch a ton of kills)...you're a moron. Supports build cdr + regen to have a strong up time on their spells while having their mana come back a bit in their downtime. Mid laners build max mana + ap so they just don't worry about regen at all, seeing how they're aiming for very strong burst rotations, not repeated shots.
Where's the utility in a RoA/Void Staff/Mejai's? None. Zhonya's? None for your team. GW is only one that "kind of" makes an case, and that's 2.9k to build for a very conditional GW proc. You're acting like the answer's so simple, yet the items you listed just emphasize the point. We have no support items for people that aren't looking for tank stats or heal multipliers. There blatantly IS NOT A SINGLE ANSWER FOR THAT outside of "snatch kills your teammates should be getting, then build mid laner items".

Like, if I were to say "offense-oriented support item", a great idea to start would have been GLP's toggle effect, with the spraying slow that deals damage with its own base and scaling. The slow is in a spray, but unlike the more selfish belt, it doesn't reposition your character for more follow-up, and it's better on defense or for use when you already caught someone so they can't escape. The issue is that Riot sort of skipped right over supports, who could use this effect way better than mid laners would given how most of them use the rocket belt or the gun blade. Now the item's got a 3k price tag and max mana...something supports don't care for.

Maybe they could make an item that'd add bonus damage from allies that hit a target after toggling it on an enemy/hitting an enemy yourself? Maybe an item that can temporarily reduce defenses in a small area? I'm not gonna sit here and act like I have concrete answers because I'm a fan of the game, not a dev. Still, let's not act like a problem doesn't exist simply because we have no solution. Part of finding a solution is identifying the problem.

AmelieAug 26, 20161 votes

So if I understand correctly, you want to play a mage as a traditional support, emphasizing more utility. My argument is that mage supports intentionally do not play like traditional ones - they do damage, look for kills, and any utility comes from their kits alone.

I personally don't see another reason to bring them into a game when you could play something like Sona or Bard and still provide damage along with utility from both kit and items. I think if you bring a mage with the intention of only letting your team get kills, you are basically making the game very difficult for yourself.

If you checked my ranked stats, you're gonna have a bad time because I don't play much ranked. If you check my match history for even the past week, you will see a TON of support Lux (and even Zyra!) building full AP and winning consistently.

If I start thinking about some AP (along with traditional) supports with access to even more offensive AP items that give utility like slows or bonus damage, they start to become monsters in my eyes. I think Riot is purposely avoiding creating such items, or gating similar items with high costs so they are not used in bot lane.

I could be wrong, though.

chipndip1Aug 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So if I understand correctly, you want to play a mage as a traditional support, emphasizing more utility. My argument is that mage supports intentionally do not play like traditional ones - they do damage, look for kills, and any utility comes from their kits alone.

And that in and of itself is an issue. So support options that emphasize damage dealing more than tanking/healing/shielding get the shaft as far as itemization goes because, if they had affordable items...they'd do damage? What type of ass-backwards shit is that?

I personally don't see another reason to bring them into a game when you could play something like Sona or Bard and still provide damage along with utility from both kit and items. I think if you bring a mage with the intention of only letting your team get kills, you are basically making the game very difficult for yourself.

Well that's what Zyra is to a tee, a high damage mage support. Other possible picks would rather go mid because using them to support just makes them a lesser version of their mid laner selves. That isn't exactly fair to those characters or players of them to not have any realistic options for playing those types of champs or that type of general play style in this role.

If you checked my ranked stats, you're gonna have a bad time because I don't play much ranked. If you check my match history for even the past week, you will see a TON of support Lux (and even Zyra!) building full AP and winning consistently.

Who the crap cares about norms? If I play a norm, I can style on a ton of kids playing crap like Quinn bot lane. Variance in skill/effort in norms is too high for me to consider it as a basis for anything meaningful.

If I start thinking about some AP (along with traditional) supports with access to even more offensive AP items that give utility like slows or bonus damage, they start to become monsters in my eyes. I think Riot is purposely avoiding creating such items, or gating similar items with high costs so they are not used in bot lane.

I think it's more like Riot hasn't even thought that much into it. They already have an eye on support itemization, and a Rioter in another thread was talking about how we rarely see more damaging supports in pro play, which obviously won't happen because what the hell is a Brand useful for on a support budget? Locket?

AmelieAug 26, 20161 votes

Supports that emphasize damage aren't shafted... do you not see your downvotes? They get kills, they get money, they afford their AP items.

I don't care what you say about Zyra, she was designed as a mid lane mage and that's where she is supposed to be. I realize she got really popular in her support role (because they nerfed her mid), and her "rework" was balanced around support, but she was not created as a support.

You want to play a mid mage as support? You are a kill lane, so you build your AP items. Yes, you will be a lesser version of your mid-lane self, because you weren't designed to go bot lane and deal with the lesser gold income.

My normal elo > my ranked elo. If you find that meaningless, that's your loss.

We rarely see damaging supports in pro play because they play safe (not for laning phase kills), favor utility, and put all their gold into their carries. They play a different meta, they cannot be compared to the rest of the people playing this game.

chipndip1Aug 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Supports that emphasize damage aren't shafted... do you not see your downvotes? They get kills, they get money, they afford their AP items.

You know, no matter what I post on these boards, right or wrong, I get downvoted into a pit. I post things that tend to go contrary to what people on these boards like. If I say "Hey, Yasuo has a relatively weak early game, so abuse that and camp him before he gets items" or "Hey, Zed isn't op because he has obvious tells on his assassination pattern and he falls off by later stages of the game." or "You know, it's more effective to ban things with high win rates and play rates than just banning things based on what a champ can possibly do assuming they're winning"...I still get downvoted. Upvotes and downvotes don't say all that much about the intelligence of the people hitting the button. It's similar to pointing at damage dealt or kills at post-game and going "See how good I am!" without any reference to the context in which those stats were acquired.

I don't care what you say about Zyra, she was designed as a mid lane mage and that's where she is supposed to be. I realize she got really popular in her support role (because they nerfed her mid), and her "rework" was balanced around support, but she was not created as a support.

Rioters have specifically said that she's meant to be a support first, especially after the MYMU. I'm not pulling this out of my ass. Also, some mid lane mages have the potential to pivot as supports, like Brand and Morgana. Difference is that Morgana brings anti-cc on E and tons of cc on Q and R. Brand just stuns one guy. What the hell else does he do or build into? Morgana can just be a cc-bot and build defensive stuff + her usual Zhonya's, but Brand's shit out of luck. You're not arguing why that's "fine" outside of "he's a mid laner". Last I checked, champions can pivot roles, and some champs are designed or redesigned with more than one role in mind, like Kench for example.

You want to play a mid mage as support? You are a kill lane, so you build your AP items. Yes, you will be a lesser version of your mid-lane self, because you weren't designed to go bot lane and deal with the lesser gold income.

My normal elo > my ranked elo. If you find that meaningless, that's your loss.

Keep telling yourself that.

https://i.gyazo.com/be2419d35c2f4eed26b8cf8d2810a261.png

We rarely see damaging supports in pro play because they play safe (not for laning phase kills), favor utility, and put all their gold into their carries. They play a different meta, they cannot be compared to the rest of the people playing this game.

You have no thought in your mind that part of it might just be that pro players don't expect their supports to get gold, so they blatantly can not afford to build shit? Most of those post-game builds are like a Sightstone, boots, and a Locket or a Crucible. Now you're saying to wait until you run into even more dough to build an item that has no team-based utility on it because I need damage?

The main thing I can't understand is why you're so opposed to having real build options for ap supports that play into damage dealing aspects of their kits and not their heals/shields. You're acting like it's a problem. What's the problem?

AmelieAug 27, 20161 votes

For the MYMU, they BALANCED Zyra around support first, then changed their approach to non-specific lane. See here.

Morgana has been able to pivot because she brings utility through CC lock (single target + teamfighting) and her spell shield.

Brand? Brand brings damage. Tons of damage, and one situational single target stun. Brand is always going to be better mid. Morgana (and some others) will always have more flexibility due to their innate utility.

Congrats on comparing ranked tiers in normals? A lot of normal players aren't in the same elo as their ranked elo, that was my whole point.

I think the issue I have is your AP ""SUPPORTS"" are actually mid lane mages, are supposed to build as mages, and are capable of building as mages (even in bot lane). You are acting like you are unable to do so, yet people are successfully building this way. What's the problem?

chipndip1Aug 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

For the MYMU, they BALANCED Zyra around support first, then changed their approach to non-specific lane. See here.

Did you not read the quote you just referenced? It clearly states that supporting is the main priority for Zyra during that update. Mid lane was Riot "trying not to leave the lesser priority option out". As far as Zyra's rework goes, support was the first priority, and yet you're calling Zyra a mid lane mage because she isn't an Enchantress. You're still wrong regardless of how you spin it.

Morgana has been able to pivot because she brings utility through CC lock (single target + teamfighting) and her spell shield.

I literally said that anyway...

Brand? Brand brings damage. Tons of damage, and one situational single target stun. Brand is always going to be better mid. Morgana (and some others) will always have more flexibility due to their innate utility.

As the game is now, yea, Brand is going to be better mid...but the point of this thread is that support itemization doesn't necessarily have options that cater to that style of supporting anyway. So yea, if I don't support what you bring, you're GONNA be better somewhere else. That's a moot point.

Congrats on comparing ranked tiers in normals? A lot of normal players aren't in the same elo as their ranked elo, that was my whole point.

Yea...SURE. You also had a game where you stomped someone that was level 26 with your "super viable support Lux". Trust me when I say that you aren't finding some Silver player in a normal game with the same chops as a Plat+ player...or even a player of your elo for that matter. People troll and practice in norms, and to boot matchmaking isn't all that "tight". Using normal games as a basis for jack crap concerning viability/balance/meaningful discussion is a fool's errand. That's why no one does it.

I think the issue I have is your AP ""SUPPORTS"" are actually mid lane mages, are supposed to build as mages, and are capable of building as mages (even in bot lane). You are acting like you are unable to do so, yet people are successfully building this way. What's the problem?

And then we go back to the same damn thing all over again, where "Some of those examples I pulled are actually pivot picks" or "Hey, Zyra was clearly meant to be a support first, and there's other champs that support in a similar fashion to how she does", and you constantly avoid this point to spit out this "you're a mid laner" line. If someone's looking for a more offensive style of working the support role, why is that not even an option to begin with? You never answer that question.

I mean, if someone wants to take a more offensive style to tanking, they buy item 3025 right? How much does it cost? 2700k. If a support wants to achieve the same thing...like perhaps Taric or Blitz, it's not like it's out of arm's reach at all. It even offers like 20% cdr! Now we look at the same conundrum for someone that wants a more offensive approach, but uses ap, and now the price tag is nearly 2 kills more expensive at 3.2k and/or doesn't offer anything useful to anyone around me save dealing damage. Is this getting through yet or is this honestly lost on you?

So, one last time: I'm not saying I should have 600+ ap on a hella cheap budget. I'm saying flesh out support itemization so we can have better options for different styles of play that don't have us copping kills all over the joint to accomplish that.

BlueBilberryAug 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"REAL" support items are for the "REAL" supports. If you're picking an AP mage-designed-for-mid-lane "support", you're there for the damage, not to provide the utility of a Janna/Soraka/etc. You are actually looking for kills, and will have extra gold that a regular support will not have. Otherwise you picked your AP mage for the wrong reasons.

They've already tacked on AP to a bunch of support items, so I'm not sure what you are looking for. Do you have a specific idea? Keep in mind they will never make support items give significant amounts of AP, otherwise mid laners (or others) will buy them.

- 60 AP - 60 AP - 25 AP - 50 AP - 50 AP

You don't get to do Tons of Damage™ for a cheap price and also provide the same amount of utility as regular supports. That would be ridiculously strong. Why do you think they had/have to change Sona so much?

Yet oddly, if you bring up the store's champions section and you toggle supports, you do have champions like Zyra, Syndra, Gangplank, Heimerdinger and Karma - which are arguably kill support. And yes, players do play them as non-support champions - at midlane and in the case of GP, top. And kill supports do have a time and place in the rock-paper-scissors-like game of poke, sustain and kill. So, the argument you are raising is moot -- you just can't get rid of kill supports by arguing that they have no place - particularly when they have been around since the support role was created.

In the end, the problem lies in Riot actually solving the 5th wheel problem that they created when they deemed that there needs to be supports. And so far, we have just had band-aids placed over this festering wound.

AmelieAug 26, 20161 votes

I never said to get rid of kill supports... I even said I play them myself. I don't have any issues with them...?

AvienalAug 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So we have support items for tanks, and we finally have pretty good itemization for enchantresses (unless Bard's one, then I'd say "Enchanters", but I doubt he is...). So...where does that leave support options like Brand/Zyra/Lux/Vel'Koz? I mean, if you're trying to build ap, because that's mainly what they're good at, the support items that offer it are rather lousy for that (FQC, possibly Zeke's, some items that give shield/heal effects when only Lux can possibly use them, and even she'd rather not). I think a cool way to spice up the role and increase possible supporting options would be to add some items for more aggressive, kill-oriented supports so they don't have to spend 3k per item. >_>

Thoughts?

We already have something like that in the form of Ardent censer and the frost queen's chaim item set. The latter implores poking turrets and enemy champions to gain bonus gold and deal some additional damage. Even with its charge system and that specific effect being disabled if you kill minions, i find it to be extremely powerful for AP support played champions like Sona, Soraka, Morganna, Lux, etc. since it lets you gain substantial amounts of gold while being focused towards denying free lane CS for the enemies.

Ardent Censer i find as one of the best items for Sona since it grants mobility, mana sustain, AP and cool down on top of making shields and healing stronger and grant mini buffs to allies in the form of extra flat on hit magic damage and attack speed, which for champions that eat up on hit effects like kog'ma and twitch, can make them even more monstrous then they already are. It may only work best on healer type champions like Soraka and Sona, but champions like Karma and Lulu should be able to benefit from it also since they both have the ability to place shields (hence applying Ardent Censer's unique skill effect).

Aggressive 'kill the enemy champion' kind of support items is kind of redundant since the point for them is to disrupt the enemy team laners, deny any gank attempts by the jungler and assist the ADC (sometimes something else entirely) to secure its CS and sometimes set up opportunities for your ADC buddy to get some kills in, since normally a ADC are champions who play the critical role of carrying a match by blasting away turrets and priority targets in team fights so the enemy team gets screwed over on having any chance of winning.

I would rather see tank items be toned down a bit so they are more put in line with other items in terms of what they bring and not be items that MUST be built by pratically 3/5ths of a team to the entire team in order to not be constantly destroyed all the time. Probably some of the lethal power on penetration items might need to be pulled back a bit to help on this, but i feel the only reason things like ADCs skipping critical if they don't have mechanics necessary to it in favor of penetration is because of tank abuse to begin with.

chipndip1Aug 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We already have something like that in the form of Ardent censer and the frost queen's chaim item set. The latter implores poking turrets and enemy champions to gain bonus gold and deal some additional damage. Even with its charge system and that specific effect being disabled if you kill minions, i find it to be extremely powerful for AP support played champions like Sona, Soraka, Morganna, Lux, etc. since it lets you gain substantial amounts of gold while being focused towards denying free lane CS for the enemies.

FQC line is like the only support item that's in-line with what I'm talking about. Ardent Censor is for heal/shielders. What the hell do any of the support options I mentioned besides Lux do with an Ardent Censor? For those aiming to play into a more offensive style of play, there's not much of any options that actually make sense.

Ardent Censer i find as one of the best items for Sona since it grants mobility, mana sustain, AP and cool down on top of making shields and healing stronger and grant mini buffs to allies in the form of extra flat on hit magic damage and attack speed, which for champions that eat up on hit effects like kog'ma and twitch, can make them even more monstrous then they already are. It may only work best on healer type champions like Soraka and Sona, but champions like Karma and Lulu should be able to benefit from it also since they both have the ability to place shields (hence applying Ardent Censer's unique skill effect).

This isn't about Sona or Lulu to begin with, and even then, it'd be a great alternative to snatching kills from people that need them so you can fund a Lich/Luden's/Gunblade, assuming you'd want to play a more offense-oriented style. This is more for support options that have either no heals/shields or don't do much with those things even if they do have them.

Aggressive 'kill the enemy champion' kind of support items is kind of redundant since the point for them is to disrupt the enemy team laners, deny any gank attempts by the jungler and assist the ADC (sometimes something else entirely) to secure its CS and sometimes set up opportunities for your ADC buddy to get some kills in, since normally a ADC are champions who play the critical role of carrying a match by blasting away turrets and priority targets in team fights so the enemy team gets screwed over on having any chance of winning.

You're not really taking into consideration half the shit I typed in this thread if you're saying this.

Like, let's take Bard for example, right? We know Bard's a balanced champ atm, but the dude mainly builds like...tank items, even with his pretty respectable ap ratios. Why? Because there's nothing that's truly viable on a support budget to build that can allow him to play into his possible damage-dealing potential, so they just build Locket/FH/tank shit...as mages. We don't need 80-100 ap items on a low budget, but it'd be grand if we had SOMETHING for someone that isn't looking to build tank items all game assuming they aren't someone that can play into Ardent Censor/possibly Athene's, and even then sometimes you're gonna want a Crucible instead of Censor.

I would rather see tank items be toned down a bit so they are more put in line with other items in terms of what they bring and not be items that MUST be built by pratically 3/5ths of a team to the entire team in order to not be constantly destroyed all the time. Probably some of the lethal power on penetration items might need to be pulled back a bit to help on this, but i feel the only reason things like ADCs skipping critical if they don't have mechanics necessary to it in favor of penetration is because of tank abuse to begin with.

The tank items in the support role aren't even THAT much stronger than the ap ones outside of Locket. The issue is that the ap ones only really look at enchantresses. Heals and shields. They don't look at what a mage probably would want to do outside of heals/shields. Zyra is the primary example because her whole kit has no heals/shields, but she's primarily supposed to support, but to a lesser degree, this can apply to other champs that are looking for a more offensive play style. I hope you're understanding what I'm saying.

Hell, even look at Banner of Command. The thing is almost 3k gold. Lockets 400 gold cheaper and its effect is one of the strongest support item effects in the game, period. Look at the big picture here.

Maximum MordeAug 24, 20161 votes

We already have items. Stuff like Mejais, FQC, Morellos, Ludens, Rylais, liandries, there are plenty of items for offensive AP supports.

chipndip1Aug 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FPyktcA6,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-08-24T18:37:45.631+0000)

We already have items. Stuff like Mejais, FQC, Morellos, Ludens, Rylais, liandries, there are plenty of items for offensive AP supports.

When was Mejai's a support item? It's cheap, but it's not a support item. The minute you die you lose all the stacks, and a support isn't looking to be less useful upon death. The reward for building it also favors kills, and supports aren't looking to land kills.

When was MORELLO'S a support item when it's like 2.9k and clearly gives max mana, which has been clearly stated that max mana is for mid lane mages?

Luden's is 3.2k gold...

Same for Rylai's

SAME FOR LIANDRY'S

I think people just downvote me because it's cool at this point.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Maximum MordeAug 24, 20161 votes

So what? The same can be said for mid lane mages who die. Supports should not be dying. Build a roa, it's cheap and hugely gold efficient. Morellos is a great support item because the build path is made out of small chunks that make it easy to build and the passive makes a huge difference in fights involving sustain cuz we know the adc can't be arsed to build executioners. Liandries also builds in small chunks easy for a support to get ahold of. Ludens and Rylais are less easy because of the NLR but still 100% doable.

chipndip1Aug 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FPyktcA6,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-08-24T18:59:57.032+0000)

So what? The same can be said for mid lane mages who die. Supports should not be dying. Build a roa, it's cheap and hugely gold efficient. Morellos is a great support item because the build path is made out of small chunks that make it easy to build and the passive makes a huge difference in fights involving sustain cuz we know the adc can't be arsed to build executioners. Liandries also builds in small chunks easy for a support to get ahold of. Ludens and Rylais are less easy because of the NLR but still 100% doable.

I don't think there's a single time-efficient way for me to answer this...like literally wtf...

Edit: Still, the thread asked for thoughts, and it'd be out of place for me to be rude about something I asked for.

ErockandrollAug 24, 20161 votes

I want to comment on a couple of points at once.

Making an AP support item is flawed. Simply put it, you can't make such an item, with enough AP, cheap enough for supports, is going to get broken by mid laners, cause it's a cheap source of stats. (Like FQC was broken for a little while)
I wouldn't butcher the supports job just to get an AP build. Eye of the watchers is far more useful if you want an AP build.
AP =/= Damage. Classical supports will have a bunch of utility ratios (if not very high) that do scale with AP, but I find that stacking AP isn't the best option for inflicting damage. (Given an AP Sona will build LIch bane way before Deathcap.) If you want high damage as a support, you want a High penetration build. You can get a lot of flat penetration early with Sorc shoes and a Haunting guise. increasing your damage from both you base and your ratios, and penetration items are a bit cheaper.
Worry less about the differences in price for the aggressive option. Simply put, if you plan on being an aggressive support. Then you can play on being a carry, and spending the kill gold to get the items. (Even if your team will complain about you hogging all the kills) The only danger here is that you pretty much must snowball. (Cause if you don't, you will become useless without your damage. And it will make you look like an idiot for picking an aggressive support.)
Someone brought up mejia's. It can work on some Supports, but should not be an aggressive option. Mainly because A) "I don't need AP, but it Helps" should probably be the slogan of that purchase. If you a Utility support Like Janna, who could use AP but otherwise isn't dependent on it. Mejia's is pretty much a no risk pickup. Even if you struggle to stack it or if you get shut down. and B) "Does the AP From Mejia's help prevent me from getting shut down?" For an aggressive mage no, because your still going to be a glass cannon, and can be shut down for just about any reason. While many Utility supports, (Again like Janna) are going to have, shields and heals that help them tank, thanks to the extra AP, they may also have an AP ratio on their speed boosts.

chipndip1Aug 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I want to comment on a couple of points at once.

Making an AP support item is flawed. Simply put it, you can't make such an item, with enough AP, cheap enough for supports, is going to get broken by mid laners, cause it's a cheap source of stats. (Like FQC was broken for a little while)

As we all know, for the last time, FQC wasn't good because it gave 50 ap. It was good because it had like 150% mana regen and an insane slow on a short cd tacked onto it. It was blatantly op and that's why mid laners picked it up. Mid laners don't take it now, right? That's because its mana regen was nerfed hard, it still gives crap damage, and the slow was nerfed harder than the mana regen. All an aggressive-style ap support item would need is balance so that the active/passive/stats it provides don't blatantly overshadow mid laner items in the mid/late game with a decent price tag and "good enough" stats to pick up by someone in the support role.

I wouldn't butcher the supports job just to get an AP build. Eye of the watchers is far more useful if you want an AP build.

Yea...but build what? Everything is tuned either to healers/shielders or mid laners. There's no middle ground in that regard. Literally none.

AP =/= Damage. Classical supports will have a bunch of utility ratios (if not very high) that do scale with AP, but I find that stacking AP isn't the best option for inflicting damage. (Given an AP Sona will build LIch bane way before Deathcap.) If you want high damage as a support, you want a High penetration build. You can get a lot of flat penetration early with Sorc shoes and a Haunting guise. increasing your damage from both you base and your ratios, and penetration items are a bit cheaper.

Liandry's is a 3.2k gold item...as stated 1 mil times already. That leaves Abyssal and Void Staff. Void is fine in this regard, save having no supportive properties, but Abyssal only works up close, which the supports in question aren't trying to be.

Worry less about the differences in price for the aggressive option. Simply put, if you plan on being an aggressive support. Then you can play on being a carry, and spending the kill gold to get the items. (Even if your team will complain about you hogging all the kills) The only danger here is that you pretty much must snowball. (Cause if you don't, you will become useless without your damage. And it will make you look like an idiot for picking an aggressive support.)

I mean, it's not unheard of. I did spy some random AP Sona player that doesn't build Sightstone or Sweeper, and that dude's in Master on a 58% win rate. Still, I'm not naive enough to think that just because one person figured out the ins and outs of a gimmick doesn't mean the actual underlying issue is resolved.

Someone brought up mejia's. It can work on some Supports, but should not be an aggressive option. Mainly because A) "I don't need AP, but it Helps" should probably be the slogan of that purchase. If you a Utility support Like Janna, who could use AP but otherwise isn't dependent on it. Mejia's is pretty much a no risk pickup. Even if you struggle to stack it or if you get shut down. and B) "Does the AP From Mejia's help prevent me from getting shut down?" For an aggressive mage no, because your still going to be a glass cannon, and can be shut down for just about any reason. While many Utility supports, (Again like Janna) are going to have, shields and heals that help them tank, thanks to the extra AP, they may also have an AP ratio on their speed boosts.

I agree with that and said something along these lines in response to that guy.

TrolljimuAug 24, 20161 votes

FQC/Mejais are core on support/adc/mid sona and lux

you get 5-6 kills of free gold for owning FQ thats like saying every game the enemy team agrees to suicide at baron and give you a penta baron steal of personal gold 100% guaranteed just for owning it

how bad do you have to be at this game to not buy FQ on sona/lux?

chipndip1Aug 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

FQC/Mejais are core on support/adc/mid sona and lux

you get 5-6 kills of free gold for owning FQ thats like saying every game the enemy team agrees to suicide at baron and give you a penta baron steal of personal gold 100% guaranteed just for owning it

how bad do you have to be at this game to not buy FQ on sona/lux?

Can you tell me how much of the op you read?

TrolljimuAug 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Can you tell me how much of the op you read?

your wording made it sound like FQC was lousy so I honestly didnt get past that point

chipndip1Aug 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

your wording made it sound like FQC was lousy so I honestly didnt get past that point

Figures. No one reads what I post before downvoting anyway. It gets old rewriting everything 5 times.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoAug 25, 20161 votes

my Morgana build item 2045 item 3092 item 3174 item 3116 item 3157 and whatever item 1001 i feel are needed. last game Morgana 7-5-26

BlueBilberryAug 25, 20161 votes

I notice that people are bringing up item 3092 and item 3504 . Fine, but the problem is that these suggestions don't work well for Zyra or Brand types - the poke/kill AP supports. Why?

Ardent Censer is not very useful for AP support unless they offer heals or shields.
Frost queen's claim is similarly a badly designed piece of equipment for an AP poking support. Sure the ghosts are nice but a major job of a support is to ward - and this item is not very useful for warding. If you want to ward, then you have to go with a separate sightstone - and that is now two slots consumed.

It's bad enough that the AP support has to be behind in gold using such support items but it seems that the devs want them to also be in horrible shape for offence/defence as the game transitions beyond the early stages.

chipndip1Aug 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I notice that people are bringing up and . Fine, but the problem is that these suggestions don't work well for Zyra or Brand types - the poke/kill AP supports. Why?

Ardent Censer is not very useful for AP support unless they offer heals or shields.

Frost queen's claim is similarly a badly designed piece of equipment for an AP poking support. Sure the ghosts are nice but a major job of a support is to ward - and this item is not very useful for warding. If you want to ward, then you have to go with a separate sightstone - and that is now two slots consumed.

It's bad enough that the AP support has to be behind in gold using such support items but it seems that the devs want them to also be in horrible shape for offence/defence as the game transitions beyond the early stages.

Riot has already stated something around the following:

They know that Locket's too strong.
They know that the game revolves around gold, so supports feel left out of the main component of the game that rewards and gratifies players.

The boards have already stated that:

Support is the least played role.
Supports feel like they have too little impact in the game.

However, when I make a suggestion with the aim of possibly addressing these types of things, I get downvoted. As far as the game goes right now, unless you're snatching kills all over the joint, you're a Locket-bot. Apparently this is the ideal for supports from what I gather.

ErockandrollAug 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Riot has already stated something around the following:

They know that Locket's too strong.

They know that the game revolves around gold, so supports feel left out of the main component of the game that rewards and gratifies players.

The boards have already stated that:

Support is the least played role.

Supports feel like they have too little impact in the game.

However, when I make a suggestion with the aim of possibly addressing these types of things, I get downvoted. As far as the game goes right now, unless you're snatching kills all over the joint, you're a Locket-bot. Apparently this is the ideal for supports from what I gather.

I don't entirely agree with that last statement, about being a locket bot. (Though it is one of the best items out their.) I also don't feel like you need to be a second APC to have impact in the game. (But if you are, that's okay too)

Usually, my biggest issue with Support itemization is the Uniformity, that comes from items that offer strong Utility. (Such as Locket) And that happens mainly because support itemization rarely emphasizes the utility on a supports kit. Supports couldn't get AP for utility scaling because their item cost was so high, and Supports couldn't get better ratios, without them moving towards the solo lane, and becoming utility mages. Though they did go in the right direction, with Ardent, Athene's, and Mikales's, increasing traditional supports ability to heal and shield.

As for the issue of gold, that's probably harder to address. The gold gap between Carry and support is going to differ based off of ELO. (Cause skilled carries will CS better.) Maybe the solution is too increase Ambient gold, while decreasing minion gold. Itemization is probably not going to be the answer. The only gold gen items out side of the starting support items are Banner, and Portal. And that's only the case because their effects grant the user gold per minion. But you can't actually get gold gen items Just for the sake of gold gen, because the items themselves cost gold. (Although I might suggest Banner of Locket, if you simply by locket for the legion passive. if you really want to break that mold)

chipndip1Aug 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't entirely agree with that last statement, about being a locket bot. (Though it is one of the best items out their.) I also don't feel like you need to be a second APC to have impact in the game. (But if you are, that's okay too)

Usually, my biggest issue with Support itemization is the Uniformity, that comes from items that offer strong Utility. (Such as Locket) And that happens mainly because support itemization rarely emphasizes the utility on a supports kit. Supports couldn't get AP for utility scaling because their item cost was so high, and Supports couldn't get better ratios, without them moving towards the solo lane, and becoming utility mages. Though they did go in the right direction, with Ardent, Athene's, and Mikales's, increasing traditional supports ability to heal and shield.

Yea, that's actually the main reason I made this thread. We took a step in the right direction with Athene's and Ardent for those that use heals/shields...but outside of that, we still don't have too much, and items like Locket/Crucible are STILL the premiere support items of this game, with very little comparably impactful options in between. I mean, Banner used to compete, but then they had to crank up its price because everyone was throwing that item around.

As for the issue of gold, that's probably harder to address. The gold gap between Carry and support is going to differ based off of ELO. (Cause skilled carries will CS better.) Maybe the solution is too increase Ambient gold, while decreasing minion gold. Itemization is probably not going to be the answer. The only gold gen items out side of the starting support items are Banner, and Portal. And that's only the case because their effects grant the user gold per minion. But you can't actually get gold gen items Just for the sake of gold gen, because the items themselves cost gold. (Although I might suggest Banner of Locket, if you simply by locket for the legion passive. if you really want to break that mold)

You also can't build gold gen items for the sake of gold gen because non-supports will abuse the shit out of them. Outside of that, supporting is still supposed to be a low-income role, right? You're blatantly not supposed to be on the same page as everyone else as a support. I think Riot can better answer the problem by having items available for those that want a more offensive support style at that price tag in that 40-60 ap range. Like, GLP could have been a decent option, but it's 80 ap and it's 3k gold. It also offers no cdr or mana regen. Still, a spraying slow that damages people would have been a great offensive support-style item. I'm really asking for this line of thinking to be aimed at a lower price tag so supports that'd like to play into these can pick them up.

Well, at least I can tell that you didn't run into this thread with a blindfold on, so thanks for that.

BlueBilberryAug 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Riot has already stated something around the following:

They know that Locket's too strong.

They know that the game revolves around gold, so supports feel left out of the main component of the game that rewards and gratifies players.

The boards have already stated that:

Support is the least played role.

Supports feel like they have too little impact in the game.

However, when I make a suggestion with the aim of possibly addressing these types of things, I get downvoted. As far as the game goes right now, unless you're snatching kills all over the joint, you're a Locket-bot. Apparently this is the ideal for supports from what I gather.

Sympathies.

That's what happens when those of us who want to play support mains are outnumbered -- all the other roles are filled by Charlie Sheen "winners" and they want to play every role except for support. (Just listening to them after the game reminds me of this Charlie Sheen quote: "It's perfect. It's awesome. Every day is just filled with just wins. All we do is put wins in the record books. We win so radically in our underwear before our first cup of coffee, it's scary.")

You just have to be patient - the numbers will eventually reveal themselves to the Riot devs. The lack of champions that play support roles and provide the basics of support (shields and heals) that you can see in so many other games. The low and still declining numbers of players who dare to play support. The fact that so many games at low levels are often decided on the bot lane, and often the role of support has very little effect in how those early turnovers actually turn out. How so much time is wasted by support players trying to provide assistance for what is often a man-child ADC who is more than willing to blame the support when he/she plays too passive/aggressive/under-wards/over-wards/roams/does not roam/etc.

You just have to be patient. [slayer-jinx-wink]

PopCorn Chick3nAug 25, 20161 votes

I used to like frost queen before it turned to a slow twin ghost item. The slow on it was like 80% I think for 0.5 second? and it helped Zyra landing that root pretty easy, but now it's not worth buying anymore since the slow is not that effective and predictable when the ghosts come out.

BloodyTomponAug 25, 20161 votes

You have that. Either frost queens claim or normal mage items.

CatastropAug 25, 20161 votes

item 3092 item 3116 item 3151 item 3157 Don't even bring up "Support's budget," in this day and age, a support's budget is hardly the meager scraps it used to be in past seasons.

redfeenixAug 25, 20161 votes

Aw hell no so much gold. It's almost on par with junglers

oSEXYPLATYPUSoAug 26, 20161 votes

zyra offers cc and zoning, and a great disengage vs heavy engage comps in addition to the damage she is able to use. i find her a more useful support then brand any day. a zyra build can easily be item 3060 item 3092 item 3151 item 2045 item 3020 and choice of item 3157 item 3050 item 3116 or if you want more ultility out her and get more armor you can go item 3069 for the active. is you dont like ruby SS go item 2301