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Let's Talk about Talon (he CAN have a healthy silence) – Part III

Hyrum Graff··29 votes·3,879 views

Talon's abilities now apply a mark. If the target is marked, they detonate the mark instead for bonus effect (mark is not reapplied). All Talon's abilities cause enemies to bleed and Talon gains MS when there are more bleeding enemy champs nearby (passive on ult, doubled during ult stealth). Talon has less burst but more total damage (he's still definitely an assassin). Some damage and effects shifted between abilities.

With long cooldowns, a damage amp, mostly melee damage, and no escape, Talon's ONLY success pattern is to all-in and burst his opponent in under 3 seconds. With 2 single-target spells and 2 other reliable ones, Talon could quickly and reliably hit his opponent with 100% of his available damage. This lead to real feast-or-famine: Talon either got fed and had the damage to burst his opponent, and felt oppressive to fight, felt useless to play as. The silence caused additional frustration, as a fed Talon he could reliably burst his opponents while they had no chance to react.

The removal of talon's silence made his damage less reliable – he can now be somewhat outplayed by dodging rake – and therefore less frustrating to play against, but it failed to give Talon any way to outplay his opponent, because he still retains the same basic “dump all my damage at once and hope it's enough” pattern.

These changes are designed to give Talon more options than E-AA-Q-W-R-R every time he goes in. He'll have a burst option, a cc/some damage option, and a silence option. His total burst will be reduced slightly, but he'll have a LOT more follow-up burst in a couple seconds, when his Q comes up again (like, another 1/3 extra damage worth). He'll typically use his ult's stealth to survive while he waits for his cooldowns. If Talon opts to have a silence in his combo, he'll pay for it in damage. Furthermore, he'll need to land a Rake or ult first, giving his opponents a chance to deny him that option altogether.

A secondary objective was to make Talon's kit feel more elusive, in line with his lore. Talon's going to be a hard guy to pin down, because he'll gain MS for every bleeding enemy nearby. This will help him stick to targets so he can make better use of his AA-enhancing passive, and to flee from opponents. An especially high moment will be when Talon has finally been cornered by many members of the enemy team. Jumping into their midst with cutthroat and then popping his ult, he'll get a large MS boost while stealthed, allowing him to escape the unthinkable.

Talon should also have some alternate teamfight roles and builds. Since he can silence and do moderate burst to anybody who he can hit with rake, he can bodyguard his ad carry in teamfights, silencing and helping to burst any assassin and cc any bruiser who's attempting to dive. Finally, I do anticipate a viable bruiser off-build. Bruiser talon can initiate fights with cutthroat and ult into an aoe slow from rake. Alternative roles should give talon something to fall back on if he doesn't snowball in lane.

#As a final note: please don't pay the exact numbers too much mind. They can be tuned if talon is too weak/strong.

10/21/2014, 1am edit: Following some deeper analysis of damage, I've updated Talon's numbers. You may now judge them for balance purposes, but I still ask that you not judge the kit based off the numbers, since numbers can be tweaked/balanced. Also, have a look at how much damage talon will deal, total.

I am currently fielding suggestions for the name of the mark, because I'm terrible at coming up with good, thematically fitting names.

You can see previous iterations in Part 1 and part 2.

#Passive: Mercy

Talon's a blade champ, but his (blade-based) abilities didn't all cause bleeding? No more! Even better, now we know why it's called Mercy – because Talon is putting his opponents out of their misery. Additionally, Talon has a combo system!

  • [New] Sharper blades, and a combo system: Talon's abilities cause his opponents to bleed for 9 + 3 per level, over 6 seconds, and apply a mark which lasts for the bleed duration. Using an ability on a marked/bleeding target detonates the mark for bonus effect and refreshes the bleed duration.

  • Hooray for kit cohesion: Talon's autoattacks deal 10% additional damage to any target that is slowed, stunned, immobilized, or suppressed => bleeding.

#Q: Noxian Diplomacy

This is Talon's bread-and-butter assassination ability. Bang! Its base damage is unchanged, but it does more damage, to compensate for the removal of bleed's AD scaling and cutthroat's damage amp (later). All told, the damage is going up. Basically, it's going to be a lot more consistent, for both burst and dps.

  • [Buff] Bonus Physical Damage: Talon's next AA deals an additional 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+ 30% Bonus AD) => 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+ 110% Bonus AD)
  • [Removed] Everything already bleeds: No longer causes additional bleeding.
  • [New] Internal Bleeding: Applies Grievous Wounds for the bleed duration.
  • [New] Boom: If this ability consumes a Mark, it deals an additional 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 (+ 60% Bonus AD) bonus damage

#W: Rake:

Rake now has a shorter cooldown, but doesn't slow and deals less damage, unless it detonates a mark, in which case it deals the same damage as live, and applies a strong slow. This is now a stronger poke and waveclear ability, but a weaker burst ability (it loses 40 + 20% AD burst, because of cutthroat's damage amp removal). In compensation, it has more utility. Also the lower cd =>higher total dps.

  • Now with 40% more blades:10 second => 6 second cooldown at all ranks.
  • And 30% less damage: 30 / 55 / 80 / 105 / 130 (+ 60% bonus AD) => 20 / 35 / 55 / 70 / 85 (+ 40% bonus AD per hit
  • [Removed] AOE assassin amirite: Rake no longer slows enemies hit
  • [New] Actually yes: If this ability consumes a mark, it deals an additional 20 / 35 / 55 / 70 / 85 (+ 40% AD) damage and slows by 20 / 25 / 30 / 40 / 50%

#E: Cutthroat:

Now Talon has to choose between getting a silence and applying a mark, which will give him more damage in his combo. Additionally, the damage amp has been removed. These changes will make talon ALWAYS max this ability last. If he's lacking a little power and we want to give him flexibility, the silence could be allowed to last for . 5 / .75 / 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 seconds depending on level.

  • [Removed] Didn't see this coming: Cutthroat no longer amplifies damage against its target.
  • [New] Bonus damage if he doesn't use his silence: If the target is not Marked, applies a Mark.
  • [New] Slightly better aim, Talon: If this ability consumes a mark, silences the target for 1 second at all ranks
  • [Note] Paralyzed: The short megaslow still applies.

#R: Shadow Assault:

The mark system's interaction with Talon's ult is where a lot of his interactivity comes from. Now, while you can double-tap R for some quick burst, you'll get more total damage / utility if you detonate your marks with your (low CD) basic abilities. Therefore, Talon's ideal damage pattern is to jump in, pop everything, hang around in stealth waiting for his Q's cd, emerge from stealth and finish them with a Q. If Talon is fed, he won't have to rely on this pattern, but the same can be said of a fed katarina not needing to rely on her ult to burst people.

Now with 100% more cool, gain up to a 100% MS boost. Mark detonation damage is compensatory for losing cutthroat's damage amp and also so it doesn't feel terrible to “lose a mark” if you rake before ulting. The mark's activation does the same damage as Rake's mark, but doesn't slow.

  • [New] Passive: Talon gains 10% MS for each nearby bleeding enemy.
  • [New] Active: Talon's passive MS doubles while he is stealthed. (Max 100% bonus).
  • [New] Moar Damage: If this ability consumes a mark, it deals an additional 20 / 35 / 55 / 70 / 85 (+ 40% AD) damage.
  • [Note] Double Duty: Enemies can be marked / take bonus damage twice, once at the start of Shadow Assault and once at the end. (Shadow Assault can detonate its own mark).

Thoughts?

######If you like the idea, or you don't like the idea but you want to see discussion about it, please leave an upvote and a comment! Otherwise, I'd appreciate it if you'd leave a comment along with your downvote.

111 Comments

Random Task5 votes

Omg they're not changing it back go away.

Hyrum Graff6 votes

@Master Katulu

Omg they're not changing it back go away.

Did you read my post? I don't want them to straight-up give talon his silence back. Heck, you could leave the silence out altogether and give him some other effect on his E, and this would still be a large rework.

edit: whoa, quote/reply is weird and I ended up with a double post. Deleting the other.

Random Task2 votes

No, i didn't because I see no needed change for Talon. Just like before, when he gets going he gets going. He's still inconsistent, just more tolerable.

Hyrum Graff7 votes

No, i didn't because I see no needed change for Talon. Just like before, when he gets going he gets going. He's still inconsistent, just more tolerable.

My post isn't just about giving his silence back. It's about giving Talon mastery and counterplay, making him more satisfying to play as AND against.

Random Task1 votes

i know.

Hyrum Graff5 votes

I'm not sure why you're against any Talon changes, then. Right now he has counterplay but no ability to outplay. Could you say a little more about that?

"Drop your combo and hope you don't get outplayed." just kind of sucks for the talon player, IMO. Or to put it another way, "Get outplayed without being able to outplay."

If these changes would be able to change that, why not implement them? Assuming they don't have other, negative, repercussions.

LelouchtheGreat4 votes

I like the idea, but honestly I'm really hesitant to have my main changed so much. I feel like I would have to re-learn my favorite champion and the one I have put so much time into learning. The only compensation for the silence I really want is either a buff/change to his passive or adding something else to Cutthroat. This proposed kit essentially guarantees that I have to sink that much more time into learning his new patterns for lane and burst. I really think you did a great job and put in a lot of effort. It is well-thought out, but it would honestly break my heart to see him essentially re-worked.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

I´m afraid they´ll have to rework him at one point or he´ll be gutted as soon as he becomes popular at all times, like poppy...his kit currently is fun to play, but way to snowbally due to the complete lack of counterplay (well ok, without the silence this is not completely the case - but without the silence there´s just no reason to pick him over any other assassin currently - Zed just massively outperforms him at all stages of the game).

LelouchtheGreat2 votes

See though, this is what I don't understand. Zed is just as snowball, maybe even more, and Zed has no mana, plus can easily leave the fight after bursting someone. Talon runs on mana, cant get his full burst if he wants to escape, and now no longer has a silence. Plus, if talon doesn't snowball he becomes rather lackluster, whereas zed will eventually get powerful regardless. It just seems unfair to me that they don't give talon some kind of compensation.

Hayaishi3 votes

See though, this is what I don't understand. Zed is just as snowball, maybe even more, and Zed has no mana, plus can easily leave the fight after bursting someone. Talon runs on mana, cant get his full burst if he wants to escape, and now no longer has a silence. Plus, if talon doesn't snowball he becomes rather lackluster, whereas zed will eventually get powerful regardless. It just seems unfair to me that they don't give talon some kind of compensation.

Because Zed has counterplay and Talon's burst is instant and aoe.

Zed falls off late game and Talon doesn't. Actually Talon is better than Zed, Zed is trash.

Talon is also fine right now he doesn't need buffs, his stats are solid.

Hyrum Graff3 votes

@Hayaishi

Because Zed has counterplay and Talon's burst is instant and aoe.

Agreed.

Zed falls off late game and Talon doesn't. Actually Talon is better than Zed, Zed is trash.

Disagreed. Zed's "Ignore enemies and dive the carry" pattern may fall off, but he's still an extraordinarily safe assassin who is also something of a melee carry. And it's mostly due to how elusive he is - how much mobility he has. Zeds who aren't able to use that mobility well ARE trash. Zeds who can use that mobility well can solo carry games.

Talon is also fine right now he doesn't need buffs, his stats are solid.

HIs stats are solid, but he has 0 ability to outplay, which means he's rather weak. If we buff him stat-wise so he can win fights, he still can't outplay. Winning fights without outplaying is the definition of no counterplay. One of the goals of my rework is to give him room for mastery, so he can outplay, which is strength that has counterplay (because, when you can outplay, you can be outplayed as well). Basically, I want to make him more interactive.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

@LelouchTheGreat

See though, this is what I don't understand. Zed is just as snowball, maybe even more, and Zed has no mana, plus can easily leave the fight after bursting someone. Talon runs on mana, cant get his full burst if he wants to escape, and now no longer has a silence. Plus, if talon doesn't snowball he becomes rather lackluster, whereas zed will eventually get powerful regardless. It just seems unfair to me that they don't give talon some kind of compensation.

The issue is that a lot of Zed's strength comes from his ability to outplay with his mobility and ult. Talon's strength is in the form of raw power.

Put another way, a noob talon is much better than a noob zed, but a pro zed is much better than a pro talon. I'm looking for ways to make pro talons stronger, without letting talon simply pubstomp at all levels.

Cyrrus3 votes

Great idea! Although I don't play nor have I seen many Talons this rework would definitely give him some more strength as well as weaknesses (no MS bonus until post-6). I also like the fact that these ability tweaks actually reflect his lore.

Hyrum Graff4 votes

Thanks! If you have any questions about how I got here (hint: LOTS of iteration. I've spent over 20 hours on this between the three posts, I think), I'd be happy to answer them :)

I will say, I have WAY more appreciation for designers now than I did a couple weeks ago, before my first post.

húsk1 votes

How do you have more appreciation for the designers now? What changed? I'm quite crest fallen about the change. :( Like to the point where I'm thinking of no longer playing League of Legends anymore. :(

Hyrum Graff3 votes

@HuskandHunger:

How do you have more appreciation for the designers now?

Take a look at my previous iterations (linked in the OP) to get an idea of just how much time I've spent on this.

The reason it's often taken so long is that design is freakin' hard! Example:

I wanted to reduce W's cooldown to give talon the opportunity to proc more marks, and to kite bruisers by proccing w mark with w, and have interesting interactions in lane, etc. Well, of course I had to nerf the damage per cast to compensate. But now talon has less burst, so I've got to give back some damage on W's mark to maintain his burst. But the problem was, if I made W's mark deal as much damage as Q's mark, talon never uses mark-q, because mark-w is just better. I can't buff mark-Q also because that'll give talon too much power.

It's really hard to find a middle ground. You do NOT want talon to be able to 1-shot a squshy with E-AA-Q, even if he's lucky and gets crits on both the AA and Q.

I ended up solving the problem by doing something really unintuitive: I buffed Rake's normal damage (it has higher dps than live, currently). This means I could give its mark a smaller amount of damage, thus keeping mark-Q as the "BANG" mark while still giving talon enough burst. That's why Talon's E CD is at 60% of live but its damage is at 70% of live.

Another thing that I had to try really hard to balance was bruiser and assassin talon.

If you give Q enough base damage, talon can just build tanky with triforce, and deal a ton of damage. You can solve this by reducing the base damage and increasing the scaling. But if you increase the scaling too much, all the sudden talon is way too snowbally and is 1-shotting people with Q if he gets fed, and that's no fun, either.

These are just two small examples. You can see other changes I've made if you go back and look at my previous iterations (linked in OP).

Also, trying to respond to everybody's feedback - and I'm not a rioter or anything. I can't imagine how hard it must be to make everybody feel included -- It makes me really understand why the voting system is important to Rioters being able to interact meaningfully on the forums: because you can't POSSIBLY respond to everyone with a thought-out, in-depth reply. You can see how much I've talked with others about these changes on the previous posts, too.

Rew7114 votes

Lets talk about Kassaden, the guy CAN have a silence. Here's why:

  • His kit isn't as strong as it once was.
  • He has a joke for his silence.
  • Can't do much anymore.
  • The new shield is stupid (Riot).
Hyrum Graff2 votes

Lets talk about Kassadin

Ok. Make a thread and shoot me the link!

Matoi Tech2 votes

I like it :-3

húsk2 votes

Here are my thoughts regarding the Silence removal. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/iMuYQMHf-talons-silence-removal

Your rework feels very much in the right direction, and I hope we as Talon players can engage in productive dialogue with Riot regarding Talon.

Talon

A little Peepo2 votes

Assassins are getting destroyed slowly and will remain like this for a long time. Evelynn was my baby :( fizz is on the radar next. Riot just doesn't want assassins to actually deal damage, they are slowly turning them info something else? Idk but soon enough assassins will not exist and adc will be considered assassins. Hopefully they do something in the near future and don't just leave them like this for another year xD

Champion Skin1 votes

Well clearly riot either don't want assassins to do damage or riot don't think Evelynn is an assassin... after all expecting an assassin to go in first and is a bit weird (considering assassins are usually full damage)... and having and ult that can never kill anyone on an assassin is also kind of weird...

Earl Eulrich1 votes

Well, eve is a fighter in essence...she´s more dps-based than bursty + her Ult is a tool for starting teamfights, not for assassination.

A little Peepo2 votes

I agree but then again how is she a fighter with what's she's wearing xD doesn't really fit her model well imo ofc. Not to mention she never really had the stats a fighter should generally have (base ofc) but meh, either way assassins are generally getting destroyed since adc has always been the baby of all roles for riot and if something is killing adc quick, it must get nerfed.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

if something is killing adc quick, it must get nerfed.

or tanking them for more than 3 sec :/ I only hope they manage to do some Chances to Crit this preseason to bring ADCs more in line with other Classes.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FBahQVHO,comment-id=00090000000000000000,timestamp=2014-10-21T13:22:45.485+0000)

or tanking them for more than 3 sec :/

item 3717 orly?

Earl Eulrich1 votes

funnily enough, i still manage to die in less then 3 sec lategame. 4k+hp and 300armor are just useless later on.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FBahQVHO,comment-id=0009000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-05-03T09:59:21.917+0000)

funnily enough, i still manage to die in less then 3 sec lategame. 4k+hp and 300armor are just useless later on.

Perhaps you're not playing smite/tele sion top, then :P

"/all Can't buy boots, it shows your enemy that you respect them."

item 3717 item 3110 item 3083 item 3143 item 3102 item 3512

Zz'rot actually makes you surprisingly fast under towers -- with it, you really don't need boots in that one part of the map. It does require a lot of foresight to know where you'll need to be, or you'll take way too long to join your team for a teamfight.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

But if you are Sion, don't you just join the teamfight by ulting? Making that argument for boots irrelevant?

Ashe Jungle1 votes

{quoted}

But if you are Sion, don't you just join the teamfight by ulting? Making that argument for boots irrelevant?

If I'm splitting bot and a baron fight is going to break out soon an ult isn't going to get me there in time. Well, it could, but I'd give up the combat portion in favor of the mobility.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

If an ult wont get you there in time, then ain't no boots gonna

Ashe Jungle1 votes

{quoted}

If an ult wont get you there in time, then ain't no boots gonna

When you ult from bot to baron, you choose to use your ult to get you there. You're not gonna hit anybody with it. It also requires you to be in the middle of the lane. If you're at their T2 tower, your ult isn't going to get you through the jungle and to baron (though you can go further than you'd think if you're good at steering).

When you have boots, you can walk there and still have your ult to engage with.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

The only way any of this matters is if sion has no available TP. If this is the case, Sion is being really stupid (boots or no boots) for splitting bot with no vision of the enemy team / baron and no available tp.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

So technically, he is now a Darius/Katarina mutant. Nice thinking.....

SouL1ess1 votes

He has no resets so he will never be as great as Katarina

And both Darius and Katarina are still vastly different compared to this kit.

BeatzBoyFTW2 votes

He has no resets so he will never be as great as Katarina

And both Darius and Katarina are still vastly different compared to this kit.

I mean he created a passive that causes bleeds from abilities like Darius does, and most of his kits will do bonus damage after the first ability similar to Katarina, so yea

SouL1ess2 votes

But Talon doesn't pull you to him, beat on you and keep you in place with MS slow while being tanky with base stats, and cause a bleed to stack up on you (and deals up to 1.5*BonusAD in damage!) then dunks you for the fun of it.

And Talon doesn't spam unlimited knifes at you and the minion wave, and Kat's combo mechanism only requires another hit to proc the mark for bonus damage but does not require you to think mechanically about which skill should be used to proc the mark.

OneSlickPhony1 votes

People are STILL making threads about Talon's silence?

Alright, I'm down. I never had problems with it anyways...

SouL1ess2 votes

The thread isn't so much about how to re-install Talon's silence on Cutthroat but rather about how to put a silence on Talon while fulfilling a middle ground between power levels.

ZLbSwAR23I1 votes

A Talon thread! Finally! Old, but as it's been bumped...

I made one, but it wasn't anywhere near as in-depth as this.

Talon really needs some work and these are some good ideas.

Generally, his early-to-mid game sustain is a big issue. I feel that the best course of action would be to lower the mana cost on his Rake. However, with the big rework you're suggesting, this would take it too far. Ideally, Riot would lower Talon's mana cost on W (having it scale up to the same amount, but anywhere from 20 to 30 mana lower at level one) now to give him a temporary, much-needed boost, before looking at a rework.

I like that you've kept his kit the same, but changed the effects. Talon is really fun to play and I'd hate it if they changed him too much. All in all, a good thread. Nice to see some more people wanting to give Talon some attention.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

{quoted}

A Talon thread! Finally! Old, but as it's been bumped...

I made one, but it wasn't anywhere near as in-depth as this.

Talon really needs some work and these are some good ideas.

Generally, his early-to-mid game sustain is a big issue. I feel that the best course of action would be to lower the mana cost on his Rake. However, with the big rework you're suggesting, this would take it too far. Ideally, Riot would lower Talon's mana cost on W (having it scale up to the same amount, but anywhere from 20 to 30 mana lower at level one) now to give him a temporary, much-needed boost, before looking at a rework.

I intentionally didn't look at mana costs, because that's mostly just a numbers thing. I was even hesitant to do approximate damage numbers because numbers are SO dependent on playtesting. Not that the rest of design isn't, which is why any League rework I do will be limited in terms of how good I can get it compared to if I worked at Riot / had access to their resources, but all numbers are even more so.

I like that you've kept his kit the same, but changed the effects. Talon is really fun to play and I'd hate it if they changed him too much. All in all, a good thread. Nice to see some more people wanting to give Talon some attention.

Yeah, I think my strength as a (wannabe) designer is taking things that already exist and saying, "How can we make this work?" In this case, the question was, "How can we make a healthy Assassin with a Silence, given that Silence + Mobility + Burst is not a healthy combination?" Well, the answer, I think, is that the assassin can't have access the the silence at the same time as his burst. Hence, the mark tradeoff.

ZLbSwAR23I1 votes

Yeah, I think my strength as a (wannabe) designer is taking things that already exist and saying, "How can we make this work?" In this case, the question was, "How can we make a healthy Assassin with a Silence, given that Silence + Mobility + Burst is not a healthy combination?" Well, the answer, I think, is that the assassin can't have access the the silence at the same time as his burst. Hence, the mark tradeoff.

Agreed. By limiting when Talon could use his silence, he'd have to make some important decisions. It would also offer a lot of counter play to those facing him. The numbers might be off, as you suggested, but I think this would be a great change.

Lajneen1 votes

He should also be resourceless.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

He should also be resourceless.

Why?

Lajneen1 votes

Why not?

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

Why not?

When you're designing, every decision you make should have a reason behind it.

This applies to my decision to keep him a mana user in this rework: he's a mana user now, and I was trying to make this a small-scope rework. The closer a rework is to live, the more sure I can be that it's a good kit without playtesting. The more changes I make the more important it would be to playtest them, which is something I don't have the ability to do.

It also applies to your want for him to be resourceless, so back to you: why do you think he should be a resourceless champ?

Lajneen1 votes

It just never made sense to me that he uses mana. He doesn't have an oppressive laning phase (as a matter of fact it's the exact opposite), he's already gated by high cooldowns and his abilities aren't really magic based (though that applies to a lot of mana users) so I don't see the point.

Puynsi1 votes

This whole concept is unbalanced as hell, marks add nothing but insane amounts of damage, its like you just want to blow a juggernaut up, he won't need the silence because all that extra damage you are giving to him will make the silence irrelevant, the GW passive is just insane, you have EC already, why give him passive GW that will probably stack with EC and make regen tanks useless? His silence was removed because you couldn't counterplay it while him dealt his already insane damage, giving him the choice of picking more damage or a silence is just dumb, why pick a silence when you can just go in and make a squishy explode x2 time faster than the current Talon?

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

This whole concept is unbalanced as hell, marks add nothing but insane amounts of damage, its like you just want to blow a juggernaut up, he won't need the silence because all that extra damage you are giving to him will make the silence irrelevant,

I'd like to point out the big disclaimer not to pay the numbers too much mind. If it turned out this is too much damage, that can be rebalanced easily enough.

the GW passive is just insane, you have EC already, why give him passive GW that will probably stack with EC and make regen tanks useless?

  1. If I were going to do a version 4 of this, I probably would remove the GW.
  2. GW refreshes duration; it doesn't stack

His silence was removed because you couldn't counterplay it while him dealt his already insane damage

This is why he chooses between damage and a silence. If you choose the silence, assuming you can hit a W to get it, you don't get to have that insane damage.

giving him the choice of picking more damage or a silence is just dumb, why pick a silence when you can just go in and make a squishy explode x2 time faster than the current Talon?

This version of Talon's full burst combo (one regular AA, one cast of each spell, one Q'd AA) when going for damage (no silence) is actually less than live. The difference is you can just actually see it because his numbers aren't hidden behind the damage amp on his E. His full combo with 2 Q's, one at the end of his ult, is a bit higher, but that also gives the enemy several seconds to prepare.

Fowus1 votes

omg I love you

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ZED CHANGES ARE TARGETED AT FRUSTRATION, NOT POWER
Gameplay213 comments
146
votes
Small Ekko nerf: better counterplay through better ult clarity (QOL for enemies)
Gameplay90 comments
127
votes