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An Attempt At: Making Stormrazor less toxic and giving it some of Infinity Edge's old feel.

Warlord Rhinark··11 votes·7,036 views

Hey fellas dipshit here back at it again with the second "installment" of "An Attempt At", where I give my own thoughts and proposed balance changes that I think would benefit the game.

Today I want to talk about everyone's undisputed favourite item, Stormrazor.

Keep in mind that whatever I say here is just my own opinion. Feel free to disagree down below.

#Why is the current Stormrazor a problem?

The current Stormrazor is a problem because it does nothing to promote what a Marksman is supposed to do: Sustained DPS.

Stormrazor gives you a free crit on engage, which leans more towards upfront burst damage than it does DPS, and then discourages you from attacking for the next few seconds in order to get another free crit.

Essentially, this makes ADCs shittier burst champions and as was to be expected, it quickly became a top tier item on Assassins.

Another thing, whilst not a major problem with the item, it becomes obsolete the more crit items you build, as the closer you come to 100% crit chance, the less valuable the free crit becomes.

Now, of course the best option would be to just remove the item, I wanted to see if I couldn't find at least some way to make it enjoyable, whilst also not making it too broken.

In the next segment, I'll list my proposed change that'll keep the "free crits" aspect of the item, but change it to be more DPS oriented rather than burst oriented as well as not make it obsolete come late game.

#So what's the proposed change to the item then?

When thinking of a proposed change I looked at the glaring problems I needed to be able to solve with this change:

  1. Remove burst oriented nature.

  2. Make it relevant in the late game.

  3. Remove it's abusability on some champions like Graves and Jhin.

My idea for the proposed change came from looking through old items that were once in the game.

One such item I stumbled upon was Ionic Spark.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Ionic_Spark

Basically, what Ionic Spark did was give you a lightning effect on every 4th auto attack, dealing magic damage to up to 4 targets, similar to the Statikk Shiv we currently have.

I also looked at the old version of Infinity Edge, which gave you critical strike damage rather than true damage.

I tried to take both of these things and perhaps see how they could fit into Stormrazor and this is what I came up with.

#Stormrazor Idea Number 1.

(RANGED ONLY)

Cost: 2600 gold.

Attack Damage: 50.

Attack Speed: 25%.

Unique Passive - Storm's Edge: Every fourth auto attack will critically strike for 200% damage. All stacks are lost if you haven't auto attacked something for the last 10 seconds.

Unique Passive - Nothing Goes To Waste: Every percentage of Critical Strike Chance that exceeds 100% is converted into Critical Strike Damage that only applies to Storm's Edge critical strikes. Damage is capped at 250% maximum damage.

Builds out of: item 1042 + item 1038 + item 1042 + 700 gold.

To give an example to the Nothing Goes To Waste passive, say you have 4 items. Stormrazor, Statikk Shiv, Rapid Firecannon and Infinity Edge.

That's 120% critical strike chance.

That means everyone of your normal critical strikes will deal the standard 200% damage, but every fourth critical strike will deal 220% damage.

To make sure this doesn't get out of hand, the maximum amount of damage you'll be able to deal with one Storm's Edge proc will be 250%, achieved through buying 3 Zeal items and Infinity Edge. I've also removed the bonus movement speed burst from Storm's Edge.

#Stormrazor Idea Number 2 (suggested by Alfavhunter).

(RANGED ONLY)

Cost: 2600 gold.

Attack Damage: 50.

Attack Speed: 25%.

Unique Passive - Storm's Edge: Every fourth auto attack will critically strike for 200% damage. All stacks are lost if you haven't auto attacked something for the last 10 seconds.

Unique Passive - Gone With The Wind: Every percentage of Critical Strike Chance that exceeds 100% is converted into Bonus Movement Speed from proccing Storm's Edge critical strikes (lasts for 2 seconds).

Builds out of: item 1042 + item 1038 + item 1042 + 700 gold.

To give an example to the Gone With The Wind passive, say you have 4 items. Stormrazor, Statikk Shiv, Rapid Firecannon and Infinity Edge.

That's 120% critical strike chance.

That means that for every fourth auto attack (Storm's Edge procs), you'll get a short burst of 20% Movement Speed that lasts for 2 seconds.

Basically means, with the maximum amount of critical strike chance possible (240%), your Storm's Edge critical strikes will give you 140% movement speed for 2 seconds.

#Stormrazor Idea Number 3 (suggested by Z3Sleeper).

(RANGED ONLY)

Cost: 2600 gold.

Attack Damage: 50.

Attack Speed: 25%.

Unique Passive - Storm's Edge: Every fourth auto attack will critically strike for 200% damage. All stacks are lost if you haven't auto attacked something for the last 10 seconds.

Unique Passive - Spray and Pray: Every percentage of Critical Strike Chance that exceeds 100% is converted into Bonus Attack Speed from proccing Storm's Edge critical strikes (lasts for 2 seconds).

To give an example to the Spray and Pray passive, say you have 4 items. Stormrazor, Statikk Shiv, Rapid Firecannon and Infinity Edge.

That's 120% critical strike chance.

That means that for every fourth auto attack (Storm's Edge procs), you'll get a short burst of 20% Attack Speed that lasts for 2 seconds.

Basically means, with the maximum amount of critical strike chance possible (240%), your Storm's Edge critical strikes will give you 140% bonus Attack Speed for 2 seconds.

I hope the post was well structured enough and comprehensible to read.

Like I said above, this is just my own opinion. You're allowed to share your own thoughts down below.

I'll even leave a poll so you can easily vote without having to go into detail.

So yeah, that's my proposed change to Stormrazor.

Thanks for reading.

#EDIT: Added two versions of the item since some people said the critical strike damage passive might be a bit overpowered. Made both versions ranged only to prevent abuse from champions like Tryndamere and Yasuo. I also made stacks run out out of combat based on Avantel Wings' suggestion. Tell me what you guys think of the new version.

#EDIT 2: Added another version of the item based on Z3Sleeper's suggestion.

55 Comments

chipndip111 votes

No

Stormrazor isn't supposed to be a scaling item. It's SUPPOSED to tide you over so you can scale off of future purchases. Making it a late game item negates the point of its implementation to begin with, and no one wants a "feel like old IE". Old IE was busted. There's a reason we stopped with 250% damage crits.

Learn from the past. Don't repeat it.

Warlord Rhinark3 votes

{quoted}

No

Stormrazor isn't supposed to be a scaling item. It's SUPPOSED to tide you over so you can scale off of future purchases. Making it a late game item negates the point of its implementation to begin with, and no one wants a "feel like old IE". Old IE was busted. There's a reason we stopped with 250% damage crits.

Learn from the past. Don't repeat it.

This version of Stormrazor isn't as much a scaling item as it's just a "not completely useless late game" item.

The free crit will still be kind of redundant once you have 100% crit chance.

The 20% crit chance you end up having in excess from buying 2 Zeal items and Infinity Edge has always bothered me since it's implementation and I wanted to see if it could be shifted somewhere else without being completely broken.

And don't worry, it won't be nearly as broken as old IE. Old IE gave 50% more damage that applied to every critical strike. This one will only apply to every fourth one and it will only deal bonus damage based off of excess critical strike chance.

If a normal ADC's build would be item 3095 item 3087 item 3094 item 3031 item 3080 item 3006 the fourth critical strike will only deal 20% more damage, not the 50% more damage of old IE.

If you choose to itemize for more critical strike damage through building 3 Zeal items, you're otherwise giving up sustain/defensive items.

It becomes a careful balance between "Do I want more damage or do I want to stay alive for longer?"

Carnicore1 votes

Stormrazor's not useless lategame. Its stats are worth a lot.

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

I definitely see your intent, but I'm just not sold on the execution. Any time you're making crits hit squishies harder, especially with all the up-front burst that exists in the game right now, that's trouble.

That's why old IE needed a rework. And this would bring the problem back. I don't understand why Stormrazer needs to interact with crits at all, frankly. I'd rather see another passive that gives it a better niche as an early game item.

ZephyrDrake3 votes

{quoted}

I definitely see your intent, but I'm just not sold on the execution. Any time you're making crits hit squishies harder, especially with all the up-front burst that exists in the game right now, that's trouble.

That's why old IE needed a rework. And this would bring the problem back. I don't understand why Stormrazer needs to interact with crits at all, frankly. I'd rather see another passive that gives it a better niche as an early game item.

Because then it's just shitty Duskblade? That is what stormrazor currently is. It's supposed to give ADCs that little extra oomph in the early to mid game and help them till they reach their late game status... except that it's better on those who don't build crit at all even though it has a passive that "scales" with crit yet it just becomes more and more useless the more crit you build.

The item needs to either stop being a shitty version of duskblade or actually interact with crit in a way that doesn't make it obsolete

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I don't want it to have anything that resembles Duskblade. Like I said, more burst for marksmen = bad, imo.

I suppose the other option is to let it actually help crit scaling... but then it's just a mandatory purchase on every crit adc. Seems inideal. I would rather get rid of the damn thing and figure out some other way for crit marksmen to be successful.

The interesting items for marksmen are the zeal items. That's where they can make meaningful itemization choices. I want to see them be able to get into those items sooner in the game without feeling like they can't do anything to contest early objectives and participate in early fights.

I really like the direction they were going when they were talking about making crit items cheaper and stack more efficiently. That made a lot of sense to me. I want to see something like that come back in preseason.

alfavhunter2 votes

{quoted}

I don't want it to have anything that resembles Duskblade. Like I said, more burst for marksmen = bad, imo.

I suppose the other option is to let it actually help crit scaling... but then it's just a mandatory purchase on every crit adc. Seems inideal. I would rather get rid of the damn thing and figure out some other way for crit marksmen to be successful.

The interesting items for marksmen are the zeal items. That's where they can make meaningful itemization choices. I want to see them be able to get into those items sooner in the game without feeling like they can't do anything to contest early objectives and participate in early fights.

I really like the direction they were going when they were talking about making crit items cheaper and stack more efficiently. That made a lot of sense to me. I want to see something like that come back in preseason.

so turn it into a mobility item when you get a good bit of crit

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

That's an idea. Like maybe an active with a short hop or something?

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

That's an idea. Like maybe an active with a short hop or something?

He already made a different comment detailing the idea.

It was turning the excess crit chance into movement speed.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

I definitely see your intent, but I'm just not sold on the execution. Any time you're making crits hit squishies harder, especially with all the up-front burst that exists in the game right now, that's trouble.

I'd rather see crits hit squishies harder every fourth auto attack than on the first one.

That's why old IE needed a rework. And this would bring the problem back. I don't understand why Stormrazer needs to interact with crits at all, frankly. I'd rather see another passive that gives it a better niche as an early game item.

ZephyrDrake explained it pretty well.

Demonblade Talon3 votes

Stupid idea. It’s fine where it is

Tin of sardines3 votes

nope, it isn't. to remind you, just look at the past, to the Rengar

a long time ago this cat used too buy item 3031 at any store, due his ultimate giving him a critical strike on leap, he also used too buy item 3087 in fact he loved it.

fast forward, and now rengar just doesn't do that any more, why? he no longer has a critical strike without a critical string item. and why he lost his critical strike? because it make people go kabum. and those people where happy about that as Kabum players are happy about the fact you just stolen they baron.

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

I actually really like this.

Do you think having a continuous counter on the 4 attacks, or have it time out eventually when out of combat?

Ætheist2 votes

My own thought on Stormrazor:

  • Reduce the AS to 25%.
  • Change Storm's Edge's critical damage scaling to (+1% per 1% Critical Chance), meaning you'd need 60% critical chance to max it.

Leading off with a 170% damage critical strike with Stormrazor + Zeal upgrade while having +55-70% AS (depending on Zeal upgrade) is still plenty strong, I think, while not being quite so stupid, then you cap it upon finishing your second Zeal upgrade or Infinity Edge, and proceed to ADC as normal.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

My own thought on Stormrazor:

  • Reduce the AS to 25%.

Well I did reduce the AS to 25% in my post.

  • Change Storm's Edge's critical damage scaling to (+1% per 1% Critical Chance), meaning you'd need 60% critical chance to max it.

Leading off with a 170% damage critical strike with Stormrazor + Zeal upgrade while having +55-70% AS (depending on Zeal upgrade) is still plenty strong, I think, while not being quite so stupid, then you cap it upon finishing your second Zeal upgrade or Infinity Edge, and proceed to ADC as normal.

That's definitely the second best change I'd see to Stormrazor, since it's so easy for Assassins to just build Stormrazor + Statikk Shiv to get full crit damage already.

However, this does absolutely nothing to make it DPS oriented, nor does it do anything against heavy abusers like Jhin and Graves.

Ætheist1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FBErE7lF,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-10-21T19:51:18.805+0000)

Well I did reduce the AS to 25% in my post.

That's definitely the second best change I'd see to Stormrazor, since it's so easy for Assassins to just build Stormrazor + Statikk Shiv to get full crit damage already.

However, this does absolutely nothing to make it DPS oriented, nor does it do anything against heavy abusers like Jhin and Graves.

Lowered AS means Jhin gets less bonus AD from it, and the scaling being halved means that his next item RFC doesn't amplify the damage as much.

Graves, honestly, is going to be a problem no matter what. He was still plenty strong before Stormrazor anyway.

Malak2 votes

First passive is great. Second Passive is awful though..

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

First passive is great. Second Passive is awful though..

The main point of the post was definitely the first passive.

The second passive was basically just a compensation buff.

Malak1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FBErE7lF,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-10-21T20:34:08.096+0000)

The main point of the post was definitely the first passive.

The second passive was basically just a compensation buff.

A horrible compensation buff - it would be fine if the max was 250% crit damage (old IE)

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

A horrible compensation buff - it would be fine if the max was 250% crit damage (old IE)

Well we could put 250% (3 Zeal items) as a cap on the item if it ends up becoming too overpowered.

alfavhunter2 votes

heres an idea

change it from +critical damage to when you proc the 4th hit you gain a burst of move speed equal to 1MS per 1% crit chance for 1.5 seconds, so at 120% crit it gives 120 MS for the adc to reposition, but it only lasts for 1.5 seconds this effect cannot occur more than 1s every 3 seconds

that way late game the item is useful for mobility and repositioning and can in turn let the adc continue DPS without giving him actual spikes in damage

think of it like jhin 4th AA, but in item form for late game

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

heres an idea

change it from +critical damage to when you proc the 4th hit you gain a burst of move speed equal to 1MS per 1% crit chance for 1.5 seconds, so at 120% crit it gives 120 MS for the adc to reposition, but it only lasts for 1.5 seconds this effect cannot occur more than 1s every 3 seconds

that way late game the item is useful for mobility and repositioning and can in turn let the adc continue DPS without giving him actual spikes in damage

think of it like jhin 4th AA, but in item form for late game

That's definitely the second best alternative to extra crit damage.

I'll add this second version to the post immediately.

Deathhawk8882 votes

Or we could just delete item 3095 from the game and make everyone happy

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Or we could just delete item 3095 from the game and make everyone happy

Yeah, Riot is only 9 patches behind on doing that.

Ætheist1 votes

Also, this would be kinda humorous on Yasuo.

Yasuo item 3095 item 3046 item 3087 item 3031

240% critical strike chance = Every fourth auto crits for 306% damage.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Also, this would be kinda humorous on Yasuo.

Yasuo item 3095 item 3046 item 3087 item 3031

240% critical strike chance = Every fourth auto crits for 306% damage.

The more he chooses to itemize after increasing the damage of his Storm's Edge procs, the less survivability he has.

Stormrazor, PD, SS and IE along with boots is already 5 items. He only has space for one more.

Müffîñ1 votes

2 problems with this. Yasuo Tryndamere

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

2 problems with this. Yasuo Tryndamere

I've changed both items to be melee only.

Bronze5Gamble1 votes

I like the direction you're taking this, and I think stormrazer needs to be changed, but here's food for thought on why this new proposition is a bad idea. Say every silver player's favorite champion Yasuo get this item, and decides to buy stormrazer, phantom dancer, infinity edge, and statik shiv. Yasuo already has reduced efficiency when you scale his passive with new infinity edge since his new two item spike is 120% crit, but this would cancel out that effect and make him a critical strike stacking monster.

Yasuo as of right now, unless called for, more or less always gets a starter item straight into a phantom dancer. after he does this, with this new item, he would build this second or third, meaning his 60% crit bonus would be giving him 60% more damage every 4 hits, or in other words, a 15% damage boost overall, not accounting for the already existing crit, which would make his auto attacks even stronger. Then you build an infinity edge and and all the sudden you get 220% damage every fourth auto, and 10% of that is converted into true damage as well, plus his already strong late game with having 100% crit with attack damage and attack speed. then after that, what's going to stop him from getting a statik shiv? First auto attack procs shiv passive, which also can crit, does 10% true damage because of infinity edge, and increases the bonus damage he does every fourth auto to 280%, where 10% is true damage. Combine this with press the attack, which does burst damage every third auto and increases any subsequent damage by 12%.

So lets do some math here, at late game when you have 4 items, not counting boots, you not only have extremely cheap items, the average price being around 2800 gold, you get 100% crit chance, 105% bonus attack speed (140% with boots), 10% bonus movement speed, 120 attack damage, 10% of damage converted to true damage, a 280 damage 5 target burst on first attack, 12% bonus damage to a target after three hits, with another 180 damage burst attached after landing said 3 hits, 12% damage reduction from the enemy you are attacking, 7% movement speed while near enemy champions you are fighting, and with the new passive you're suggesting, every 4th hit, which by the way would scale with press the attack 12% damage boost, would do ONE-HUNDRED AND EIGHTY PERCENT BONUS DAMAGE. not to mention that it would encourage people to auto attack minions 3 times, then just flat out all in the enemy with their free first crit and subsequent crits.

Hell, if I was playing yasuo with this item, I would buy rapid firecannon as well just to fucking do it and one shot literally anyone while having 2.50 attack speed. AND LETS NOT EVEN MENTION HOW BROKEN THIS WOULD BE ON TRYNDAMERE.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

I like the direction you're taking this, and I think stormrazer needs to be changed, but here's food for thought on why this new proposition is a bad idea. Say every silver player's favorite champion Yasuo get this item, and decides to buy stormrazer, phantom dancer, infinity edge, and statik shiv. Yasuo already has reduced efficiency when you scale his passive with new infinity edge since his new two item spike is 120% crit, but this would cancel out that effect and make him a critical strike stacking monster.

Yasuo as of right now, unless called for, more or less always gets a starter item straight into a phantom dancer. after he does this, with this new item, he would build this second or third, meaning his 60% crit bonus would be giving him 60% more damage every 4 hits, or in other words, a 15% damage boost overall, not accounting for the already existing crit, which would make his auto attacks even stronger. Then you build an infinity edge and and all the sudden you get 220% damage every fourth auto, and 10% of that is converted into true damage as well, plus his already strong late game with having 100% crit with attack damage and attack speed. then after that, what's going to stop him from getting a statik shiv? First auto attack procs shiv passive, which also can crit, does 10% true damage because of infinity edge, and increases the bonus damage he does every fourth auto to 280%, where 10% is true damage. Combine this with press the attack, which does burst damage every third auto and increases any subsequent damage by 12%.

So lets do some math here, at late game when you have 4 items, not counting boots, you not only have extremely cheap items, the average price being around 2800 gold, you get 100% crit chance, 105% bonus attack speed (140% with boots), 10% bonus movement speed, 120 attack damage, 10% of damage converted to true damage, a 280 damage 5 target burst on first attack, 12% bonus damage to a target after three hits, with another 180 damage burst attached after landing said 3 hits, 12% damage reduction from the enemy you are attacking, 7% movement speed while near enemy champions you are fighting, and with the new passive you're suggesting, every 4th hit, which by the way would scale with press the attack 12% damage boost, would do ONE-HUNDRED AND EIGHTY PERCENT BONUS DAMAGE. not to mention that it would encourage people to auto attack minions 3 times, then just flat out all in the enemy with their free first crit and subsequent crits.

Hell, if I was playing yasuo with this item, I would buy rapid firecannon as well just to fucking do it and one shot literally anyone while having 2.50 attack speed. AND LETS NOT EVEN MENTION HOW BROKEN THIS WOULD BE ON TRYNDAMERE.

I read what you said and you make some decent points.

I'll update the post and make Stormrazor ranged only.

Tin of sardines1 votes

Unique Passive - Storm's Edge: Every fourth auto attack will critically strike (200% damage).

Unique Passive - Nothing Goes To Waste: Every percentage of Critical Strike Chance that exceeds 100% is converted into Critical Strike Damage that only applies to Storm's Edge critical strikes.

Jhin so... everyone has my artistic strike now? Gnar get used to it.

kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk serious that meme material right... why you looking funny at me? ok... ok... I will give you some last minute design.

~~ last start by what the item is trying to do.~~ ~~ and that is to increase the damage output of Marksman without RNG.~~ ~~ and that my friend is where my brain start to meltdown.~~ ~~ for started a increase damage for every auto until X has been tried before, riot then has scrap the concept.~~ ~~ but your suggestion is like giving a champion innate passive to everybody else, just add a move speed on crit burst and everybody is going "four".~~

some concepts really quick (may or may not be unbalance, please pay attention and use you brain).

Concept 1 #resonance: after a attack, if attack with same target again with a (window of time here) deal X extra amount of damage. notes: it can be change to be a ratio of critical strike or attack speed, it can be delayed, Serious I don't to suggest how to exactly do it.

Concept 2 #stormofrazors: after the first attack gain X attack speed, from that moment after every single attack "shower" the enemy with X damage scaling with critical change over attack speed related time. _Note: _this sound awesome, and worthy of a nice animation and all, so no place for it in league (we already have so many effect that I only notice veigar W had struck me in mini gnar form in the replay)

Concept 3 #plottwister: If you haven't basic attacked or cancelled your basic attack for 3 − 0.3 (based on bonus attack speed) seconds gain Storm's Edge Storm's Edge you next attack will deal 150% + (critical chance / 2) damage every attack after that will deal 100% + critical chance damage. Note: take that RNG, remember that the ratio need balance so the first shot does a bit of more damage that the following unless critical change is 100% or more. also, just think about a upper limit, maybe something like what happens with move speed in game? I don't know. and this doesn't solve the burst problem, but "kinda of" says good by to the RNG, no only that it has number so you can, you know Rumble it (equalize).

P.S.: enjoying my self with false as Gnar walking stick self assurance of a bigger and ready to smash version of my self. I would like a moment to suggest. can you guys put me in good word for being a member of the balance team? I heard they need help, and I need balance, money balance. since I don't have a good one right meow, so it could be the being of a purfect catnreer with pawtastic results.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tin of sardines,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FBErE7lF,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-10-22T01:24:30.177+0000)

~~ last start by what the item is trying to do.~~ ~~ and that is to increase the damage output of Marksman without RNG.~~ ~~ and that my friend is where my brain start to meltdown.~~ ~~ for started a increase damage for every auto until X has been tried before, riot then has scrap the concept.~~ ~~ but your suggestion is like giving a champion innate passive to everybody else, just add a move speed on crit burst and everybody is going "four".~~

As if new Infinity Edge wasn't just Yasuo's double crit passive.

Riot doesn't seem to have a problem with taking passives of champions on slapping them on items. Look at Gargoyle Stoneplate - it just has Wukong's passive.

Concept 1 #resonance: after a attack, if attack with same target again with a (window of time here) deal X extra amount of damage. notes: it can be change to be a ratio of critical strike or attack speed, it can be delayed, Serious I don't to suggest how to exactly do it.

I don't like this since it's still some kind of burst thingy.

Sure, you have to auto attack the same target, but it's only the second auto attack.

Concept 2 #stormofrazors: after the first attack gain X attack speed, from that moment after every single attack "shower" the enemy with X damage scaling with critical change over attack speed related time. _Note: _this sound awesome, and worthy of a nice animation and all, so no place for it in league (we already have so many effect that I only notice veigar W had struck me in mini gnar form in the replay)

That's definitely a cool passive, but that might give ADCs a bit too much AS along with the normal Zeal items they'll be building.

Concept 3 #plottwister: If you haven't basic attacked or cancelled your basic attack for 3 − 0.3 (based on bonus attack speed) seconds gain Storm's Edge Storm's Edge you next attack will deal 150% + (critical chance / 2) damage every attack after that will deal 100% + critical chance damage. Note: take that RNG, remember that the ratio need balance so the first shot does a bit of more damage that the following unless critical change is 100% or more. also, just think about a upper limit, maybe something like what happens with move speed in game? I don't know. and this doesn't solve the burst problem, but "kinda of" says good by to the RNG, no only that it has number so you can, you know Rumble it (equalize).

Eh. It's basically still the old Stormrazor.

P.S.: enjoying my self with false as Gnar walking stick self assurance of a bigger and ready to smash version of my self. I would like a moment to suggest. can you guys put me in good word for being a member of the balance team? I heard they need help, and I need balance, money balance. since I don't have a good one right meow, so it could be the being of a purfect catnreer with pawtastic results.

Are you having a stroke?

Ryusaether1 votes

Every 4th Auto...

Jhin from best item to absolute trash sinergy

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Every 4th Auto...

Jhin from best item to absolute trash sinergy

It is as it should be.

Still, he'd probably get some joy out of his fourth critical strikes now dealing more damage if he has an excess of crit chance.

I also added another version of the item he might enjoy even more.

Ryusaether1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FBErE7lF,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2018-10-22T06:22:18.515+0000)

It is as it should be.

Still, he'd probably get some joy out of his fourth critical strikes now dealing more damage if he has an excess of crit chance.

I also added another version of the item he might enjoy even more.

Mmm not really. Stormrazor was created to give frontloaded dmg oriented ADCs (or burst ADCs) an option that is not the common crit high dps build. An Item that should be good on Draven, Jhin, Quinn, for example. The fact that it's abused on Jinx and other ADCs is a lacking of the item design imo.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Mmm not really. Stormrazor was created to give frontloaded dmg oriented ADCs (or burst ADCs) an option that is not the common crit high dps build. An Item that should be good on Draven, Jhin, Quinn, for example. The fact that it's abused on Jinx and other ADCs is a lacking of the item design imo.

Exactly, it's a lacking of the item design.

The item design is horrendous, and therefore I just did away with it.

Narsicus1 votes

The best part about Stormrazor is that it changes how a player thinks about auto attacks.

Every other item in the game wants you to attack as often as possible, just mindlessly shoot ad-nauseum, and the more items you get the closer you become to a dps turret whose goal is to stand still as often as possible to maximize dps.

Stormrazor wants you to STOP doing that and wait between auto attacks. Its obviously going for a 'quick-draw' theme where the idea is that if you wait to re-sheathe the sword you can strike out again with more force.

This style of benefiting patience is the core of Stormrazor, and if it was changed to another item that revolved around spam attacking it would ruin everything that was good and interesting about the item all to make it a superfluous second late-game crit multiplyer.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

The best part about Stormrazor is that it changes how a player thinks about auto attacks.

Every other item in the game wants you to attack as often as possible, just mindlessly shoot ad-nauseum, and the more items you get the closer you become to a dps turret whose goal is to stand still as often as possible to maximize dps.

Stormrazor wants you to STOP doing that and wait between auto attacks. Its obviously going for a 'quick-draw' theme where the idea is that if you wait to re-sheathe the sword you can strike out again with more force.

This style of benefiting patience is the core of Stormrazor, and if it was changed to another item that revolved around spam attacking it would ruin everything that was good and interesting about the item all to make it a superfluous second late-game crit multiplyer.

On paper, an item that makes you think about attacking rather than just doing so as much as possible is great.

But then you realize, that it's an item meant to be built on characters who's main function is literally just to attack as much as possible.

It'd be like making a Tank item that discourages you from taking damage.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Just make it give attack speed on crit again and remove crit scaling on the damage entirely.

Then make bonus crit = more attack speed on crit.

Something like "on-crit gain 20% bonus attack speed increased by 0.5% for every 1% critical strike chance and +10% movement speed for 2 seconds".

The MS is amount is halved for this too since double duration. But if you wanted the burst MS, you should've specced into Fleet Footwork anyway.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Just make it give attack speed on crit again and remove crit scaling on the damage entirely.

Then make bonus crit = more attack speed on crit.

Something like "on-crit gain 20% bonus attack speed increased by 0.5% for every 1% critical strike chance and +10% movement speed for 2 seconds".

The MS is amount is halved for this too since double duration. But if you wanted the burst MS, you should've specced into Fleet Footwork anyway.

There's only so many versions of the item I can include to the post.

I already have a Stormrazor that gives critical strike damage and another one that gives movement speed.

SirGank1 votes

I dislike both options and the current one, but I more resonate with the 2nd option.

Storm isn't meant to be a scaling item but a decent first item power spike that doesn't bring in RNG. It's major problem is the up front burst so moving it's crit back I think is something riot should look into, but it should be more reflective of traditional trading patterns for the tine you would typically get that item. I feel like the 4th auto is a bit much personally ( I would go with 3) and I feel the damage is a bit high in your proposals (I would rather stick to the current 160% and scale to 200). Changing the move speed to scale with crit I ageee with but not for excessive crit. It would make that portion useless for a long time and for everyone that doesn't go for 100+ crit. (There's a few)

I also disagree with making the item ranged only. While I believe the item would be FAR easier to balance that way, it removes diversity from the game which I think we need. Riot also wouldn't do that unless its a last resort, and while the item has its problems, I don't feel we need to go that route just yet. Rather we can instead impose melee to ranged variances similar to other traditional melee items. Such as, a melee procing the ms portion gets 1/3 of the affect oppose to a ranged user. This helps with possible abuse cases. (See below)

Overall I lean more towards idea 2 with some adjustments, but with every change, one has to look at possible abuse cases. Darius , Fiora , and Jhin come to mind. Sustain damage doesn't just belong to crit users and marksmen, they also belong to juggs and fighters. Movement speed is also not just for kiting but chasing. So any change to an item like this can be possibly exploited by them. It would be a cheaper alternative to item 3078, giving darius and fiora some scary damage and chase potential. Jhin of course just synergize really well with Storm Razor as a whole so adding a scaling movespeed with crit, both stats he builds and feeds on can be dangerous. Moving the affect to the 3rd auto though might help but that's something riot would have to test and see how they like it.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

I dislike both options and the current one, but I more resonate with the 2nd option.

Storm isn't meant to be a scaling item but a decent first item power spike that doesn't bring in RNG. It's major problem is the up front burst so moving it's crit back I think is something riot should look into, but it should be more reflective of traditional trading patterns for the tine you would typically get that item. I feel like the 4th auto is a bit much personally ( I would go with 3) and I feel the damage is a bit high in your proposals (I would rather stick to the current 160% and scale to 200).

You sound like you're contradicting yourself a bit.

On one hand, you say it isn't supposed to be a scaling item, yet you want it to start at 160% and then scale to 200%.

On one hand, you want Riot to move back the burst of Stormrazor, yet you want to lower the amount of attacks you have to get off from 4 to 3 in order to get the crit.

Changing the move speed to scale with crit I ageee with but not for excessive crit. It would make that portion useless for a long time and for everyone that doesn't go for 100+ crit. (There's a few)

ADCs are not supposed to be hyper mobile in the early to mid game.

This is a major problem of a little someone known as Jhin, affectionately referred to as "The Fast".

I wanted the movement speed to purely be something you use to reposition during late game team fights.

I also disagree with making the item ranged only. While I believe the item would be FAR easier to balance that way, it removes diversity from the game which I think we need. Riot also wouldn't do that unless its a last resort, and while the item has its problems, I don't feel we need to go that route just yet. Rather we can instead impose melee to ranged variances similar to other traditional melee items. Such as, a melee procing the ms portion gets 1/3 of the affect oppose to a ranged user. This helps with possible abuse cases. (See below)

I didn't originally make it ranged only, but people here in the comments kept saying it would be broken on Tryndamere and Yasuo.

I had no choice but to comply.

Overall I lean more towards idea 2 with some adjustments, but with every change, one has to look at possible abuse cases. Darius , Fiora , and Jhin come to mind. Sustain damage doesn't just belong to crit users and marksmen, they also belong to juggs and fighters.

Sustain damage definitely belongs to Juggs and Fighters as well, but crit itself should mostly belong to Marksmen, with the odd Tryndamere here and the Yasuo there.

Movement speed is also not just for kiting but chasing. So any change to an item like this can be possibly exploited by them. It would be a cheaper alternative to item 3078, giving darius and fiora some scary damage and chase potential.

Exactly, which is why I added the "excess crit" restriction on the movement speed.

So you can't just buy Stormrazor alone on it's own and get tons of MS from it, you have to build other crit items along with it.

So now Darius and Fiora would have to fill their builds with Zeal items and an Infinity Edge if they want the movement speed.

Jhin of course just synergize really well with Storm Razor as a whole so adding a scaling movespeed with crit, both stats he builds and feeds on can be dangerous.

This version definitely sounds less dangerous than what Stormrazor's current iteration is.

Moving the affect to the 3rd auto though might help but that's something riot would have to test and see how they like it.

I do not see how moving it to the 3rd auto helps in anyway.

SirGank1 votes

You actually misunderstood me, apologies if I wasn't clear.

Many things in this game have a scale but not everything is considered a scaling item or champion. I thought that was clear at first. Current storm razor isn't a scaling item as it doesn't have ratios to magnify your damage or increase the efficiency of your purchases as you go into mid and late game. What it does is it gives you a 100% chance to crit but trades off the actual damage of a true crit. An actual crit attack is supposed to deal 200% damage. That is a systematic value, storm razor makes you deal less. That is why they made it so that if you buy at least a single full crit item, it would give you back the 200%. Otherwise you would spend the rest of the game hitting less than normal crit values and you would of been better off just not buying stormrazor and actually leave things up to the rng crit early on. The 160 to 200 scaling is storm razors CURRENT values, so i did not propose ir ask for anything new.

I also never asked or implied that I want burst back on razor. Please do not put words in my mouth. I said it should be based on 3 autos rather than 4 as you have to consider the time the item is bought and the trading patterns. It's a first buy item, so you get it around the 10 to 13 min mark as your ending your lane phase. 4 autos is an awful lot despite what many people think. 3 is a comfortable spot as it falls in line with most characters passive, making it very clear when the damage is going to kick in. For example vaynes passive is 3 hit. Kaisai, while technically is the only 5 hit adc, plays out a little differently. She gets 2 free ones on the supports engage, then stacks 3 on her own. So she still follows a similar trading pattern. This of course means nothing if you actually meant that the stacks were built on minions rather than combat but I assumed you rather it build in combat since that would void people trying to build it out of combat and jump in for feee burst again.

"ADCs are not supposed to be hyper mobile in the early to mid game.

This is a major problem of a little someone known as Jhin, affectionately referred to as "The Fast".

I wanted the movement speed to purely be something you use to reposition during late game team fights.

" No where did i said hyper mobile. Just giving someone move speed doesn't make them hyper mobile. Jhin is the outlier which is why I mention him a few times. He will always be an outlier hut thats beside the point. To clear things up, again, i never asked for more or boosted numbers. People keep thinking thats the way to solve things, but its not. I'm asking for the CURRENT ms that it gives to scale on crit. As in, it has a base of say 10 ms, and to get the full 20, you have to build a full crit item. Still the same .75s duration,and still the same ms in the end. Just less at the start and its tied into a stat that's built by the primary users. This means that if darius builds it for example, he doesn't get a free 20% ms which would be unbelieveably scary. If he wants to make full use of it, he would have to build a crit build, which of course takes away his tankiness. A major trade off for a juggernaut and many divers. But yes, coupling it with crit makes it still be good for mm in repositioning but makes it mostly for MM.

"I didn't originally make it ranged only, but people here in the comments kept saying it would be broken on Tryndamere and Yasuo.

I had no choice but to comply.

" Don't comply. Stand your ground and make a justification. Most of the community just echoes each others thoughts and it does more harm than good. The game needs people to think above and beyond and get the right feedback to the devs, not just the ones people feel are right.

"...but crit itself should mostly belong to Marksmen, with the odd Tryndamere here and the Yasuo there."

Fully agree.

"Exactly, which is why I added the "excess crit" restriction on the movement speed."

What I clarified earlier addresses this point. The problem with making excess crit, means it applies only to the people that go full 120% crit. There are actually mm that just sit on just below 100 believe it or not. Jhin is someone who is flexible and will always abuse the different stat spreads, which is why its better to just scale up to the current base values and with nominal crit builds (60%). You still get the same affect without alienating or locking a lot of MM into this particular build. Any jugg trying to make use of it still has to go buy storm, + IE and a zeal item . That's already a large trade off that stifles their builds. Yasuo isn't changed much either as his passive already lets him already scale amazingly off crit and ie. He can build storm razor but it's not as valuable as his other items.

"This version definitely sounds less dangerous than what Stormrazor's current iteration is." Agreed

"I do not see how moving it to the 3rd auto helps in anyway."

You actually broke the statement apart here, that's why it sounds unclear. Its saying more or less, this stormrazor change (both the one you proposed and the touches I discussed) can be dangerous for Jhin, but then again it might not be so bad since its moved to the third auto (or fourth in your case) since he doesn't auto fast and does poor sustained damage.

Apologies for the terrible quotes. Tried to reply off my phone at work, but I hope it clears things up a bit.

EyesOfTheFox1 votes

Stormrazor is a trap item for crit based hyper carries, and I've found that skipping SR altogether can actually be more beneficial. However, marksmen that rely less on sustained auto attack dmg tend to get more use out of SR imo.

I feel like Riot tricked everyone into thinking SR was supposed to be the best new marksman item on the rift, but in reality it can actually hurt some champions more than it helps as it ultimately slows down crit builds to the point where you stall mid game and feel useless for some time.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Stormrazor is a trap item for crit based hyper carries, and I've found that skipping SR altogether can actually be more beneficial. However, marksmen that rely less on sustained auto attack dmg tend to get more use out of SR imo.

I feel like Riot tricked everyone into thinking SR was supposed to be the best new marksman item on the rift, but in reality it can actually hurt some champions more than it helps as it ultimately slows down crit builds to the point where you stall mid game and feel useless for some time.

Don't get me wrong, I probably despise Stormrazor as much as you do.

I just wanted to see if there wasn't some teeny tiny way it couldn't be made less toxic whilst also being useful.

EyesOfTheFox1 votes

I don't despise it, I think it's good on some marksmen. I just don't think it needs to be for ALL marksmen as there is really no way to make it an every champ item, nor do I feel it should be~

AggressiveWolf1 votes

Post this on Gameplay+

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Post this on Gameplay+

Gameplay+ is for soyboys that can't handle being downvoted.

AggressiveWolf1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FBErE7lF,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2018-10-22T17:46:00.938+0000)

Gameplay+ is for soyboys that can't handle being downvoted.

oof.

LeftyRaydy1 votes

#Stormrazor Idea Number 3 (suggested by Z3Sleeper). Unique Passive - Storm's Edge: Every fourth auto attack will critically strike for 200% damage. All stacks are lost if you haven't auto attacked something for the last 10 seconds.

Jhin 4.... (mouth Waters)

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