Boards›Gameplay

@Riot, any specific Reason Bond of Stone still exists?

Malicious Metal··66 votes·3,265 views

That mastery takes up an important spot that could be filled with an actual tank mastery that isn't tailored specifically to a certain type of champion.

Now with Knight's Vow becoming a thing and many supports benefitting from Courage of the Colossus I see no reason to keep the mastery. There are literally only six (Alistar Blitzcrank Leona Nautilus TahmKench Taric )champions using it and most of them wouldn't even be bothered by using other keystones and in fact most of them do already.

So why are tanks, divers, juggernauts and bruisers in general somewhat punished by not being able to get some choice in their keystones? Grasp was nerfed a ton and some champions don't even want it due to them already having enough damage or not even needing the sustain Courage as well is very specific, only benefitting ENGAGE champions like Vanguards and maybe some divers.

So yeah, I can see you wanted to replace SOTA but give us another mean to actually get TANKY in the resolve tree.

65 Comments

Ralanr27 votes

Knights Vow really does make this mastery redundant.

RocketRelm4 votes

Do they not stack? I don't have a PBE so I can't check.

Ralanr2 votes

Well yeah, but I don't see the interesting part about it. I get that it's effective.

RocketRelm4 votes

Well, 'redundant' mostly implies that one invalidates the other. I imagine the fun in it is similar to the 'fun' a soraka/lulu gets when she keeps healing/shielding the adc and they Never Ever Die. Or a Braum diving in front to negate spells. It's not quite my thing, but that's the general appeal, and it's a draw mainly to True Supports (the kind that enjoyed the cognitive 'i'm protecting my team' of the Aegis Aura).

Ariel the Cruel6 votes

and it's a draw mainly to True Supports (the kind that enjoyed the cognitive 'i'm protecting my team' of the Aegis Aura).

Can confirm. I love Aegis and BoS for how much power they provide. And I'm used to being called useless when people don't see anything flashy.

DarkRitual2 votes

Damage reductions are multiplicative, not addative. So while they do stack, additional sources of damage reduction provide diminishing returns.

MEMEME67013 votes

Okay so, couple things here.

  1. This seems to apply pretty much 1 to 1 with regards to Windspeaker's Blessing as well, and yet you don't want that removed? In fact, I feel like most of the community wouldn't want WSB removed, as although healing can be annoying having something for a healer to take is important. You can make the argument it's different because tank supports can take one of the other keystones in the tree, but it's not like Janna could never proc thunderlord's. Protecting an ally is a seperate enough playstyle to warrant a keystone.

  2. There are only six champs using it. But I believe that's not the mastery's fault, and instead a twofold problem.

Firstly, support itemization is bottlenecked at locket currently (which is getting fixed soon), so if you want to be buying something else you're simply not a good choice atm.

Secondly, supports tend to be more 'tier-locked' than other roles. What I mean by that is, playing a lower tier support is much less uncommon than other roles. Mordekaiser is a horrible champion speaking strictly powerlevel wise, but you can one trick him and be fine. Maybe some games you do bad and people get angry at you for picking him, but if you do well people won't say shit. With supports, you have to lane with someone else, so if I want to play Rammus support, in addition to any other flak I might get from picking a bad champion (which would also apply to someone picking a bad champ in any other role), I have to deal with the adc being both much more likely to be upset at me, and more upset at me than my allies would be if I were in a solo lane or jungle, because he is much more invested in my pick, he's laning with it after all.

And then, after champ select, if I'm doing neutrally, not making insane plays but also not dying unnecessarily, etc, I'm still more likely to be harassed because the adc is constantly reminded during lane phase that, for example, "If we had any support with mobility we'd be able to dive here, but since this guy picked Rammus we can't." Regardless of the potential positives of such a pick, the negatives are so obvious and in-your-face (the adcs) that as a Support player, someone who wants to help my allies, I'm heavily encouraged to just pick a high tier support.

DarkRitual2 votes

WSB only works well for the supports it was actually MADE for. Bond was made for tank supports, and it's working okay for tank supports now, but will likely be heavily overshadowed by the Colossus keystone.

The alternative to WSB on champs that use it is usually Thunderlords, because it's just a general mastery. Case in point: Nami with TLD recently at worlds. Tank supports at least have more options (SotA currently, CotC soon, TLD, Grasp, BoS)

MEMEME6701 votes

WSB only works well for the supports it was actually MADE for. Bond was made for tank supports, and it's working okay for tank supports now, but will likely be heavily overshadowed by the Colossus keystone.

If true, this is likely because Bond is too weak or Colossus is too powerful. Which can be fixed by changing the numbers, not removing the mastery.

The alternative to WSB on champs that use it is usually Thunderlords, because it's just a general mastery. Case in point: Nami with TLD recently at worlds.

I don't think this is true. Soraka and Janna get basically nothing out of TLD, and although Sona is slightly more arguable, her play pattern leads her to getting 2 hits off and then backing up, making TLD extremely risky to try and proc in many scenarios, and having an aoe shield on a low cooldown works very well with the resistances from WSB.

Nami is an aggressive support. Her ONLY heal is budgeted into part of a skill slot, not even the full slot (since it also does very good damage). WSB has always been an option on Nami, but I believe in the vast majority of times, TLD has been better.

Odinakos1 votes

Just small corrections.

Sona can proc TLD with Q and powercord (powercord counts as 2 instances) making it too easy to proc. But ofc its just an alternative to WSB and not a main contester because mid-late game WSB is broken on her. Nami usually uses WSB as well witl TLD when wanting to go oppresive like vs melee support. Karma likes WSB with some outliners of DFT and TLD.

Overall you are right and i agree that while WSB supports have alternatives, they would be gimbed without it. As those alternatives are for specific situations, WSB is good for all. Even when not the best choise, its still a good one.

The same would happen if bond of stone would get removed. Because it will always be good on tank supports, no matter if another keystone will be slightly better for niche occasions. While without it, there will be a handful of cases tank supports would be gimbed.

MEMEME6701 votes

Sona can proc TLD with Q and powercord (powercord counts as 2 instances) making it too easy to proc. But ofc its just an alternative to WSB and not a main contester because mid-late game WSB is broken on her.

No she can't. I just double checked this in a custom. Powerchord does count as 2 procs for spellthiefs, but not TLD.

Marshbouy6 votes

Sadly, very true.

AgeOfTheMage6 votes

You forgot Braum

6Sfool1 votes

Braum Is better off with Grasp of the Undying. He already intercepts damage that is headed for the carries, plus he is always autoing enemies.

DarkRitual4 votes

Colossus will be better for him though. His Passive stun and ult knockup will both proc it.

AgeOfTheMage1 votes

^

Champion Skin1 votes

Ehh... does his passive stun proc Colossus if allies proc the stun?

DarkRitual2 votes

Yup, the damage and CC source is Braum, no matter who gets that 4th stack applied.

6Sfool1 votes

True, I'm excited to see that on him. While he's not really an engage tank, I'm pretty sure that shield will come up at the perfect time in a teamfight.

Kingdom Corn1 votes

Thresh Nunu

Ben Sharpio4 votes

Colossus is the only incentive to going into the resolve tree. All of the other offensive masteries are more powerful whilst resolve tree is incredibly lackluster. 10% armour for TWO SECONDS? No thanks. Armour while near turret? No thanks.

RocketRelm2 votes

10% armour for TWO SECONDS? No thanks.

Do you mean the Fearless mastery? Because that says 10% +2*lvl. Now, it is frustratingly unclear whether that means % or flat, because wording means flat but it 'could' be an unclearly typed up meaning (wouldn't be the first time typos were in new content). Even if it is a flat amount, the flat amount makes up the greater portion of the strength for the majority of the game (unless you stack truly absurd amounts of resistances, via an in-kit steroid).

[NEW] Fearless (Resolve, Tier 4) "Gain 10% +2 per level bonus Armor and Magic Resist when damaged by an enemy champion for 2 seconds (9s Cooldown)"

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

Actually the 10% resistances mastery looks really good IMO. It's just a little 1 point tier 2 mastery, but you get 10% + 2 per lvl armor and MR. So you basically have 20-30% more effective health vs poke (assuming they don't have % pen). So, late game if you are lvl 18 with 300 Armor and 180 MR this would give you 66 armor and 36 MR which is a ton for one low tier mastery. Also, it may only last 2 seconds but the cooldown is only 9 seconds so it has 22% uptime which is really big for a mastery IMO.

Think about trading, you usually don't trade more often than once every 10 seconds in lane, and trades often only last 2 seconds. So you get a substantial amount of resists EVERY trade if your opponent is limited by a cooldown that is 9 seconds or longer. At lvl 6 if you only have 50 armor and 50 MR you get 17 armor and 17 MR from this mastery.

I do agree the armor/MR while near turret mastery is pretty useless though.

CookyPrince4 votes

I prefer WSB over BoS for Taric especially since you can pick up the extra 5% cdr

RisenDarkKnight2 votes

Agreed, it's like alistar, sure your heal isn't big, but it's AOE so you can give your whole team the armor and MR.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

You might be interested in the upcoming changes to Alistar. ^^ He won't be able to spam his aoe healing this much anymore.

RisenDarkKnight2 votes

Oh yeah I forgot about the changes. He'd prob want the courage of the colossus anyway though, because that mastery seems really good.

Big Lincoln3 votes

what would even be a good keystone for tanks?

the only thing I could think of that would fit the defensive bill (Colossus is aggressive, Grasp is hybrid) would be something that triggers after you take enough damage in a period of time.

Like Sterak's, or Poppy's W passive doubling her resists

Malicious Metal1 votes

Some mastery that increases your Armor/MR the lower you get, allowing you to basically get better at the job you're supposed to be. Lasting somewhat longer the more damage you take

The Yetii Rider2 votes

We have a mastery that gives you 200% health regen when you're low. It does the job fine, as someone who uses it all the time.

Champion Skin1 votes

It isn't that great is it? it adds item 1006(50% base regen) when at 100% to 25% HP and it adds item 1006 item 1006 item 1006 item 1006 (200% base regen) when at less then 25% HP

The Yetii Rider1 votes

It adds item 3083 (200% base regen) when at less than 25% HP, yeah.

That's significantly more value than just 600 gp. Health regen becomes more and more useful the more and more you have of it.

Champion Skin1 votes

The Value of 200% base regen is rather difficult to say... as it (like attack speed) is a multiplier on a base stat... so it all depends on how good the champions base stat is

Like on Soraka Mordekaiser Gnar who all have really low base HP regen which makes HP regen not worth much

However on Heimerdinger Base hp regen items are more valuable since he has a high base HP regen List of champions HP regen

DarkRitual2 votes

I have a feeling Olaf would get that mastery nerfed pretty hard.

Boulderox1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FAO3Zofd,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-10-21T21:44:10.534+0000)

what would even be a good keystone for tanks?

the only thing I could think of that would fit the defensive bill (Colossus is aggressive, Grasp is hybrid) would be something that triggers after you take enough damage in a period of time.

Like Sterak's, or Poppy's W passive doubling her resists

an opposite of an kill focused? Bounty hunter, kills = 1% extra damage output

Tank variant: Fortifying Bounty: kill/assist = 1% damage reduction per unique champ, max 5% reduction

thinking kinda like a item 1054 idea here, reducing the damage taken by the amount while calculating damage from abilities and autos

But the trouble is to, if you make one good for tanks, how many offensive champs will abuse it if it is really good...

Big Lincoln1 votes

But the trouble is to, if you make one good for tanks, how many offensive champs will abuse it if it is really good...

It needs to have some sort of scaling with defensive stats so that others can't use it well at all without at least a half-tank build

Boulderox1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FAO3Zofd,comment-id=000300020000,timestamp=2016-10-22T12:41:18.001+0000)

It needs to have some sort of scaling with defensive stats so that others can't use it well at all without at least a half-tank build

that is just it, i mean i was thinking of maybe upscaling to 5% armor/mr, but that is 5 armor/mr @ 100 armor/mr, which is shit...

Big Lincoln1 votes

make it % bonus values and then also exempt Graves E from working with it

This way only dedicated tanks can get the value out of it

Champion Skin1 votes

5% armor/MR is a tier one rather weak mastery without having to do anything to get the bonus (yes it is only on bonus armor and MR but the difference would only be about 1-5 armor and 1.5-2.5 MR... because base armor is from 16-105 at level 18 and MR is either 30 or 53... oh and the one with 16 base armor is Thresh who is counted as ranged and don't gain armor per level)

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FAO3Zofd,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-10-21T21:44:10.534+0000)

what would even be a good keystone for tanks?

the only thing I could think of that would fit the defensive bill (Colossus is aggressive, Grasp is hybrid) would be something that triggers after you take enough damage in a period of time.

Like Sterak's, or Poppy's W passive doubling her resists

this. i want this for juggernauts, dive fighters and tanks.

strength of the ages(keystone): you permanently gain 30 + 15/lvl health (300 max) gain 1% damage reduction for each enemy champion who has dealt damage to you within the last 4 seconds (maximum 5%).

slower ramp up of the health (by lvl 18 instead of midgame), but more reliable. situational damage reduction to counter damage increases like the 5% from ferocity.

and this

perseverence(t4): regenerate 5% missing health every 10 seconds.

and this

tough skin:(t2) blocks 2% damage from single target spells and basic attacks

resumed2 votes

make it 8 champs Braum Thresh

its also worth noting that thresh and blitz flex with thunderlords depending on matchup

bond of stone needs a buff to make it appeal to pure tanks as well as support

however

courage of the colossus should allow them to buff grasp of the undying because not every toplaner will be forced to take it and allow the ones who its meant to be used by to use it

TyroneWatermelon2 votes

Because Windspeaker exists too

Shadow Hazard2 votes

I think a good one is a mastery that improves the effect of damage reduction by multiplicative X value. Effectively boosting the effectiveness of building defense stats.

HazyCloud72 votes

I also see no reason to keep this keystone in the game, because it's uninteractive and also because courage of the colossus is 100x better and will be taken by every tank and tank support.

SwiftKitten882 votes

how about we keep Strength of ages and remove THIS instead..

JerulEon2 votes

Bond of stone on paper doesn't seem bad, but it just doesn't feel meaningful. Windspeakers feels meaningful because you can directly see your heals and shields change fights in clutch moments.

Keìron1 votes

What about Death Fire Touch? Unless you're jhin, its damage is unnoticeable.

Kingopants4 votes

Actually it is significant damage on a lot of champs it's just not obvious but it does build up over time. I mean for single target spells it adds 25% AP Ratio to it it is definitely pretty dang sweet. Also for champs like Karthus it's an extra 62.5% AP ratio burn over top of 300% AP damage spell. (Assuming 5 people). Obviously for brand too the damage is pretty nice since it burns for 5 seconds every spell and will give you an extra 31.25% AP ratio on them.

DeathBurst1 votes

It's especially strange that it's the only keystone quasi-restricted to a position instead of a class of champion. You can take Fervor whether you're Top, ADC or Jung. But you probably won't take Bond of Stone if you're not Support, at least not with the current numbers on the solo damage reduction.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Malicious Metal

The one buff Karthus NEEDS
Gameplay126 comments
464
votes
Viktor's Patch 6.9 entry shows that whoever worked on Vik has no idea who he truly is >_>
Gameplay224 comments
414
votes
I have achieved my final form!
Memes & Games62 comments
320
votes
There's actually an ingenious way to solve the whole FQC and Ap CDR crisis
Gameplay223 comments
280
votes
A champion should NEVER be made more clunky/less satisfying to play (Regarding Viktor's PBE changes)
Gameplay140 comments
279
votes
Malphite will be the best Camille counter
Memes & Games60 comments
257
votes