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Why is it okay for Mages and Marksmen to get ahead and carry..

Mira Arya Enthe··93 votes·6,095 views

...but not okay when Assassins or Skirmishers get ahead and carry?

So it's okay to be fed and sweep an entire team as long as you have the safety of range. But if you do it as a melee it is suddenly "toxic" and "anti-fun to face".

I'm sorry. I'd much rather have somebody dive my team get CC'd and die than wipe all 5 of us from next galaxy.

Skirmishers tend to have slightly more tankiness and mobility than ranged champions.

Assassins tend to be burstier and more mobile.

But neither gets to sit 750 units behind their tank so they kinda need that. They are also squishy as hell compared to Tanks and Fighters. So they die almost as fast as ADCs and Mages.

Does the community just not know they are also carry classes who do well when ahead?

EDIT: So about 2/3rds of comments consist of "They are mobile". No duh... okay, take that away, now you come up with a way for a squishy, damage based melee to get to an ADC before they kill them with 3 crits... Unless you think the only melees that should exist are immobile target dummies tanky ones that you can easily kite.

EDIT 2: A new wave of comments are "they can outplay you!"

And uhm... ADCs cannot?

https://youtu.be/mWxyYWE2oOc

In fact it is top tier ADC mains a lot of people think of when they hear "Outplay". I mean don't try telling gosu, sneaky, doublelift, Imaqtpie or other top level ADC mains they cannot outplay people when ahead. Or even behind.

For mages try telling that to faker, hai or any other top tier player that plays mages.

But even down here in Silver I see Lux's outplay Zed's all the time. And Ashe's flashing out of Riven's knockup, stunning her then killing her in about 2-3 AAs while lifestealing any damage she took.

The difference between an Assassin/Skirmisher and ADC/Mage the former is better at solokills when in small fights. Allowing them to be good split pushers. But otherwise does the same job of killing things from a much more dangerous range. Making them far worse at sieges, objectives and team fighting. An assassin or Skirmisher relies on catching you in a bad spot or their tank engaging first. Just as much as and ADC or mage relies on you making a stupid engagement or their tank engaging first.

Both are team reliant. You cannot "carry" if your team isn't in a position to be carried.

And I'm sorry, when the roles are reversed and a Twitch or Lucian is super fed. A Skirmisher or assassin feels just as helpless trying to ever get on them and deal enough damage before they lifesteal it back. As an ADC feels when a Skirmisher or Assassin is fed. That is the price of hypercarry potential. You rely on your team and getting fed. When behind you feel helpless.

At least a mage when behind usually still offers strong utilities. Like my main mages Malzahar and Lux.

Edit 3: The current argument is "counterplay". The counterplay for all squishy carries is the same. Burst, CC, Exhaust, warding, defensive items/lifesteal and positioning. Those things are easier to apply when the attacking champion is melee. Which is why melee champions MUST have some level of mitigating your defense if they play well. Also talk about limited counterplay... ADCs do most of their DPS and healing based on typically undodgeable right clicks from 500-700 range. Mages are compensated by having AoE, burst and utilities instead. Just as mages are compensated melees get mobility and ways to dodge damage and/or CC. That is fair.

And yes. Melees can, if not CC'd or exhausted, escape after going in. Most mages and ADCs never have to "go in" to begin with. Their safety is range. Yet most of them still have some form of escape or CC and items like Scimitar and Zonya's work as well on them as melees.

A large part of why Melees "Can't miss" is because they are in melee range. Ahri is unlikely to miss Charm from point blank either. The difference is she doesn't have to point blank.

Yet to be convinced melee carries carrying is any more unfair than a fed Twitch killing an entire team in a few AAs or a Syndra one shotting somebody from 500+ range.

194 Comments

DoktorKaiser25 votes

Its really simple:

  1. mages and adcs are usually immobile and easy to catch and kill

  2. especially mages can be outplayed hard and are mostly skillshot reliant

On the other hand assassins are usually extremelly mobile making them almost impossible to get caught and they tend to lack counterplay when fed because of said extreme mobility and because they can pop back out of the fight easily.

If Anivia is fed I can always run away from her, stay at range and try to stall or something. If Zed is fed he will jump on me from across half the map and murder me easily and the worst thing is that he will pop back to where he came from making it impossible for my team to retaliate. I mean that is what assassin should do but the class itself is really unhealthy and shouldnt exist in this type of game honestly.

Mira Arya Enthe9 votes

The counterplay to both fed Skirmishers and Assassins is exactly the same. Ward, Don't get caught out, don't go where there isn't vision, save exhaust for them, crowd control obliterates them. You're right. They don't get caught out as easily. But in team fights and sieges they can be rendered useless while ADCs and Mages can still hide behind their tanks going "Pewpewpew" and killing your team.

Malicious Metal8 votes

Implying all out 5v5 team fights even do happen.

SoloQ is all about catching people out and just making picks to win the game.

Team fighting is only prevalent during tank metas where you need to force these kinds of engagements since Tanks can't really rely on picks.

Mira Arya Enthe6 votes

If a Fiora or Akali is fed I heavily would suggest grouping. You can get objectives and towers and force them to contest it as 5. Where Skirmishers and assassins fall off hard.

Also warding and not getting caught out are basic counterplay for anything in the game. And works on them too.

If you are a mage or ADC, the people they can one shot. You stay near your Vi, Sejauni, Leona, Shyvana, Nautilus, Moakai, Lee Sin, whomever is a big nono for those squishy, easily interrupted types.

MissingKayo5 votes

And that doesn't matter when only bad players would be out by themselves.

Dabrick0123 votes

I wonder if that is why so many people hate Yasuo.

People just don't like the fact that a champ and deal damage and have the tools to survive.

Mobility and Tank Stats are a really bad match for Damage in theory. But champs that change the way you play or think about the game are super cool to me.

CertainlyT is such a hated designer due to the fact that he challenges the way you play the game with every champ he makes. it's super dangerous to stay in lane at low health with the new Warwick, and minions can't be trusted while facing a Yasuo.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo14 votes

me personally my only issue with yasou was the fact that you can play against him how you should and do what you should do right... and lose the trade

oh and his stupid amount of mobility with safety

let him have his damage ... whatever

but dont let him have damage and be untargetable ( during ult) have what seems like a zero second cd on his dash and to be able to hit you with Q through minions which he can ult off of and not be creep blocked

ItzZeyro3 votes

his mobility only goes 1 direction targetted and is something from 10-6 seconds per target oh and he isnt untargettable when he ults its just that you cant cast spells nor autoattack when suspended in the air (think nami bubble). he doesnt get creep blocked due to item 3046 but if you mean his E then he still can get creep blocked by his own creeps (which is usually why you miss cs, your own minions blocking you). if his q hits something else first it doesnt apply stuff like fervor, bork, grasp, or even frozen mallet to you. its just to first target

oSEXYPLATYPUSo4 votes

if he cast his Q it can go through minions and hit you and thats all he needs to close the gap through/over the creeps to ult you ...

yes im fine with nami's Q cuz her bubble dont also provide ACTIVE: Yasuo blinks to the nearest visible Airborne icon airborne enemy champion to the cursor, instantly generating maximum Flow. Upon arriving, he Stun icon suspends all nearby Airborne icon airborne enemies for 1 second and deals them physical damage. PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 200 / 300 / 400 (+ 150% bonus AD) For the next 15 seconds, Yasuo's Critical strike icon critical strikes ignores 50% of his targets' bonus armor. Casting Last Breath clears all stacks of Gathering Storm Gathering Storm.

which by generating flow his passive of INTENT: Yasuo's critical strike chance is doubled, but his Critical strike icon critical strikes deal 90% damage, reduced to 75% damage on Steel Tempest.png Steel Tempest. RESOLVE: Yasuo generates 1% of his maximum Flow for every 59 / 52 / 46 units he travels by any means, requiring a total of 5900 / 5200 / 4600 units travelled to obtain maximum Flow. At maximum Flow, the next instance of champion or monster damage against Yasuo consumes all of his Flow and shields him for 100 - 510 (based on level) damage for up to 1 second.

is also effective and applied

Lovelle8 votes

His wind wall is the only thing I hate about him.

TyrekGoldenspear14 votes

Here's my theory.

If a fed Brand annihilates your team, you're mad yet at the same time you realzie you couldn't do much about it.

Now if a Fiora or Yasuo dives in and out of your team, putting themselves in harms way, and still whoops you all, then you get mad at them, yourself, and your team for not doing anything to stop them.

So it's like a multiplication of frustration.

Mira Arya Enthe10 votes

That is what I am thinking. When people get swept under the rug by an ADC or Mage they can convince themselves their team was just not focusing or it was a bad engagement. But when say an Akali follows her tank in and obliterates a carry then escapes she was JUST in their grasp. So they convince themselves the champion design is the problem.

FalconPawwwwnch14 votes

Because the community thinks melee champions shouldn't do anything except be meat shields for ADCs

Nameless Voice10 votes

I'd say that neither are a problem in theory: even an ahead carry and be burst down if you can get the drop on them, and even an ahead assassin can be shutdown with coordinated teamwork.

The problem comes in when one of those can manage to both be ahead, melt enemies with ease, and become almost impossible to kill. For example, when you have an assassin who can get in, kill someone, and get out before the team or their opponent can react, or when a ranged-bruiser can one-shot people while draining back any lost health and being almost impossible to kill.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

Fair enough. But ADCs and Mages can become "impossible to kill" by merit of range and safety.

SwiftKitten888 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F55fMJ7r,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-02-01T00:41:46.913+0000)

Fair enough. But ADCs and Mages can become "impossible to kill" by merit of range and safety.

right... and assassins like Ekko cant? range means nothing when the gap goes to zero in half a second...

Mira Arya Enthe9 votes

Says the person who plays Nidalee... The champion that was OP at one shotting squishies from S1-S6. RIP Nidalee 2017.

On another note. Yeh he has a gap closer. So ADCs cannot go "1...2...3... You dead" before he gets in range. How else would you suggest a squishy melee get damage off on a ranged champion? Walk up to them... slowly?

oSEXYPLATYPUSo9 votes

regardless of champ classification if you are ahead you are at an adventitious position

to be honest i dont think the community knows much of any thing regarding the game ... more so just what they are bias to... cuz it directly effects them at that moment

Arakadia7 votes

Skirmishers do get ahead and carry though? A fed Fiora, Riven, Darius, Yasuo, Yi, Pantheon, etc. can definitely carry. Not all of those are skirmishers, but skirmishers can definitely carry. Lifesteal on someone like Yasuo, Riven, or Fiora can make them unbearable. Lifesteal is general is overtuned.

I'd say its even harder for a mage to carry than a bruiser. Mages have terrible seige in most cases, cooldowns, mana gating, are squishy, often immobile, and rely on skill shots that can be missed. What good is Cass's damage when a Tryndamere just guts her like a fish before she can get away.

In coming downvotes from mage haters.

Mira Arya Enthe7 votes

I love mages.

But I know Skirmishers CAN carry. Too many people on here thing nothing but mages and marksmen SHOULD carry.

Arakadia2 votes

That I agree with.

Incarceration5 votes

Hmph. There's a thing called kiting. Especially with Cassiopeia.

Mira Arya Enthe7 votes

Mages have terrible siege... as opposed to being melee and sitting behind the tower with your thumb up your ass?

NineTailedMystic3 votes

A Skirmisher can level a tower in no time flat if left unchecked, but a Mage will take a minute.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

That is split pushing not sieging. Sieging implies there is a defense.

Arakadia3 votes

A melee can split and take a tower. Trust me, just because Xerath has ranged autos doesn't mean he has good seige. A kitable melee like Trundle has better tower taking. And sure, a melee can't take towers that are being defended very well, BUT a Twitch, Jinx, or Trist can't take a defended tower safely assuming theirs multiple defenders. And one or two of the defenders have range themselves.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Split pushing is not sieging. Sieging is attacking a tower/champions under a tower where champions are present. It is a siege. AD melees do take towers in split pushing better. At least in most cases, unless the AP builds Lichbane or is Ziggs. However mages are a million times better at Sieging, a melee cannot defend a tower against a ranged champion unless the melee is fed and has a gap closer and possibly CC as well.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Eh, I feel that mages can seige pretty well as usually they have the range advantage.

Golden Tager X6 votes

Well yeah, and in fact it was these whiners that got devourer removed even though literally the highest winrate users of it being Kayle and Shyv were at 53% because melees could carry the game, harder than they could.

TheHappyReaperz5 votes

Because, even though Mages and ADC's deal damage from range, they lack escapes. So, they can be shutdown, if they get caught out. However, someone like Riven or Talon can easily dive in, burst half your team and get out. While it is true you can catch them out, it's significantly harder.

Mira Arya Enthe6 votes

Yes. But Riven or Talon don't have the safety net of range so they get the safety net of escape.

Tychusfindlay9193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F55fMJ7r,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2017-02-01T00:46:47.885+0000)

Yes. But Riven or Talon don't have the safety net of range so they get the safety net of escape.

Speaking of safety, riven has a little too much safety...

oSEXYPLATYPUSo9 votes

what about Ahri Azir Cassiopeia AurelionSol Brand Ekko Elise Fizz Karma Kassadin Kennen Nidalee Orianna Ryze Syndra Swain Taliyah TwistedFate Veigar Velkoz Viktor Vladimir Xerath Ziggs Zilean Zyra

these all have forms of cc and range and if not escapes and dives

all mages

and most of them if not all builds item 3157 for added safety

Skelenth9 votes

AhriKassadinKennenVladimirZiggs These are the ones that have an escape and more or less the safety of range.

EkkoFizzKassadin These are melee and either need their mobility to engage, escape or both.

RyzeTwistedFateAzirEliseAurelionSolTaliyah These are the ones with a conditional escape ability. You can stop Ryze from ulting away, unless he used Zhonyas. You can cc (or simply kill) TF while he's channeling. You can bodyblock Azirs dash. Elise can only Rapple onto enemy units, and Aurelion Sol and Taliyah can't use their spells in a fight.

CassiopeiaSyndraZyraVeigarAurelionSolOrianna Have strong AoE CC that they can use as a disengage. They still have to run away however, due to the lack of mobility abilities.

XerathVelkozAurelionSolTaliyahZiggs Are usually dead when some melee carry or fighter is on top of them.

And of course: Zhonyas is a damn traitor that will stab you in the back. It makes you completely unable to get away from bad situations, and is best used to avoid dying in the clusterfuck that is a teamfight. It will not save you from a juggernaut/assassin/skirmisher running your way, unless they are stupid enough to run through your whole team first. It usually just prolongs the inevitable (which I actually find rather fitting, but whatever). The only champions that can use Zhonyas and still have some means of self-protection are FiddlesticksSwainAurelionSol and other champions that have a non-channeled damage- or escape ability (Ryze) that lasts either until toggled off, or until it's duration finished.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo4 votes

ryze can use cc and walk away

fizz with his playful trickster can use to engage and escape clear over walls etc

tf can use gold card to stun or red card to slow you as he escapes he dont have to ult

apparently you didnt think this through

Skelenth3 votes

apparently you didnt think this through

Probably the case.

I however never said they can't escape you. I also said, Fizz needs his Escape and mobility to even as much as work as what he is, which is an assassin. Not a mage. TF can use gold card to stun you. Sure. But he's still slow as fuck. If you really want to get on top of him, you probably can do that. You already managed to get into his basic attack range (which is rather short for a champion that needs his basic attacks as much as he does, while being very squishie) Ryze... is just weird. He deals burst dps, has cc, movement speed buffs and a few other things he might not necessarily need to do his job.

NineTailedMystic4 votes

Because of how they carry. Mages and ADCs are pretty squishy no matter how far ahead they are so if you catch one out, they die assuming you don't massively misplay. On top of this Mages can fuck up themselves. If I miss E/Q as Ahri, I'm not killing anything.

Comparatively, Assassins and Skirmishers have a lot less risk when they're in a position to carry. Skirmishers like Yasuo can demolish a multiman gank if they play it right. In part, this is due to Warlord's and Lifesteal overall. Assassins, really lose the high risk part when they're fed. They go in and instaburst a squishy like it were Pre-Update with little room for outplay. They're less squishy than a Mage or ADC as well due to needing higher base stats for being melee on top of having more room for a defensive item in their build like Cleaver, Maw, Bloodthirster, GA, etc.

Not to mention how there's usually little outplay to a Skirmisher or a fed Assassin. The Skirmisher wants to AA you to death and there are usually little options you can take and they usually have an answer to it (Windwall, Riposte, Undying Rage...). When an Assassin can carry, they're ahead to the point where their all damage kit can vaporize a squishy and fare well against a Tank. Of course, both classes are vulnerable in a teamfight still, but the more time you take focusing them down, the more time their team has to run rampant.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

My primary champions:

Shyvana Teemo Ashe Malzahar Leona Soraka

You can check my mastery points on those.

I have never once felt they were more unfair than Twitch appearing and going "pew pew pew your team is now dead." or Brand just going "QWER your team is dead." when ahead.

In fact, when Fiora or Riven are ahead. I can simply go. "Oh you are in melee range? Let me..." summoner 3 Then they do no damage and die shortly after. I cannot exhaust Caitlyn from 650 units away.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Meanwhile, they get your Exhaust, maybe a Flash, and their team has time to take advantage of the damage their teammate did deal while you focus down their Exhausted teammate. Meanwhile, outside of a Teamfight scenario, there are no safe places outside of your base when there's a fed Assassin or Skirmisher.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Meanwhile, outside of a Teamfight scenario, there are no safe places outside of your base when there's a fed Ahri, Annie or Syndra.

Fixed.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Ahri, maybe. Annie is easy enough to stay away from as long as she doesn't have Flash. Syndra is only a threat if she hits her stun without being within ~650-700

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

All three of those can one shot a non-tank from range when fed.

By comparison Riven can can one shot a non-tank when fed. Minus the range. So instead she gets mobility.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

And Ahri and arguably Syndra can be outplayed. If Riven gets within melee range you die.

Meanwhile, people downvoting me :^)

Handin Out Naps6 votes

Comparatively, Assassins and Skirmishers have a lot less risk when they're in a position to carry.

That's why Assassins across the board have much higher average deaths than ranged champions? What is with the boards and this way of thinking. "Oh it has mobility it is automatically a much safer champion to play than a mage." Are you actually gonna sit here and tell me champions like Ahri, Anivia, and Orianna take bigger risks than Zed, Kha, Fizz, or any other assassin? I remember playing Orianna after a long time of only playing assassins and I was like, "Why would I ever play someone who actually has to take risks to do damage when i can sit all the way in the back of a teamfight and do tons of damage?" But then I remembered I actually hate how ridiculously safe mages are and get bored playing them.

UnboundCreator2 votes

Why does this guy have so many front page posts? Are people up voting this idiot just to troll the boards? That's my guess

oSEXYPLATYPUSo8 votes

guy ? she has front page post cuz regardless if your agree or not with the content its well written and thought out .

Mira Arya Enthe6 votes

Dun maek me bloosh.

zarxus12342 votes

This has got to be one of the dumbest posts i have ever read in my life. Assassins and skirmishers/bruiser carry the hardest. They can literally 1v5. How is this upvoted. Every game that has been hard core carried has been by an assassin/bruiser. I've played 1 game where an adc/mm has hardcore carried that game. This is probably the most ignorant post i've ever read.

This is just a circle jerk of hatred towards mages and adc's full of lies and over just dumb things to say.

Mira Arya Enthe11 votes

"Skirmishers and Assassins carry the hardest" that is why Marksman has been essential and Mages nearly essential since S1? And even the current "replacement" for marksman is a mage with the whole Ziggs thing.

Now yes. Assassins and Skirmishers can carry. We all know that. It's the fact that much of the boards calls them carrying "Toxic design" and thinks only Marksmen and Mages should carry games when snowballing.

SlaktarTasken8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F55fMJ7r,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2017-02-01T02:26:02.144+0000)

"Skirmishers and Assassins carry the hardest" that is why Marksman has been essential and Mages nearly essential since S1? And even the current "replacement" for marksman is a mage with the whole Ziggs thing.

Now yes. Assassins and Skirmishers can carry. We all know that. It's the fact that much of the boards calls them carrying "Toxic design" and thinks only Marksmen and Mages should carry games when snowballing.

I so approve of this message it almost hurts.

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