What's the tradeoff for Qiyana's low ultimate cooldown on such a high utility spell?

Frontline Fury·Aug 23, 2019·18 votes·11,480 views

Qiyana's ultimate is a knockback into stun that also serves as a nuke. It has a very low cooldown for what it does, so what is the tradeoff?

67 Comments

ZeyphelAug 23, 201922 votes

Better question, what is an assasin doing with an AoE stun Ult?

NyarlathοtepAug 23, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Better question, what is an assasin doing with an AoE stun Ult?

Just rito james stuff.

RagnaveilAug 23, 201910 votes

No, the bigger question is why does it have % max health damage when no assassin should ever have it.

Z3SIeeperAug 23, 201915 votes

AoE knockback + stun that deals % maximum health.

They really designed a great teamfighting mage ultimate here. Wait, she's an assassin?

FlameHalbrdOkidoAug 24, 20192 votes

shes like some mix, as long as she has some sizable delay in her kill time im ok, but i still don't like the knock back portion that seems like extraneous power

ImTheJuggernautyAug 23, 20193 votes

Excellent question

Daddy AntsAug 24, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Better question, what is an assasin doing with an AoE stun Ult?

Why does a Mage have one also?

Neeko

KanzlerAug 23, 20199 votes

Low cooldown? That is a mighty fine joke, sir.

SukishooAug 23, 20195 votes

Its currently 120/100/80 that is pretty low at max rank. It's getting nerfed to 120 at all ranks though.

KanzlerAug 23, 20192 votes

Her ult CD is average at all ranks.

120 at max rank is huge though.

iamthegoatofwarAug 23, 20194 votes

which for such a strong skill is a low CD.

Sewer SideAug 23, 20192 votes

2 minutes is low?

crippler38Aug 24, 20191 votes

It is for what you're getting out of it, for reference friggin Shen is at 200/180/160, and Kenny's is at 2 minutes at all ranks.

Reason I picked Shen was I knew it was a high utility ability with a long cooldown, but for a better comparison there's Kenny.

His ultimate is a big damage AOE stun that can hit an entire team. Qiyana's ultimate can do something similar but in different scenarios, someties having a bigger or smaller area of effect depending on the area. Hers however gets a lower cooldown with ranks.

So while I know these two are very different characters and that comparing them kit by kit would be a bit ridiculous, I just wanted to point out that one of the most powerful ultimates in the game is a 2 minute cooldown and hers is not only lower but functions very similarly in many situations as a huge AOE damage and CC tool.

KanzlerAug 23, 20192 votes

I'd argue with you, but you're just flat out wrong and it's not worth the effort.

Sire HippingtonAug 24, 20191 votes

120/100/80 is prettymuch the norm for strong teamfight ults, Malphite, Gragas, Nauti, oriana...they all have 80sec at max rank. most of them even the exact same 120/100/80. With the upcomming nerf, it actually will be the hgihest non global ult CD at max rank.

Atleast after the nerf, the CD on her ult is not the issue. The big issue is that an assasin with exeptional early kill potential has acces to such a devastating TF ult. No wonder tanks are obsolete when assasins are allowed to have teamfight initiations like that...

ImTheJuggernautyAug 23, 20192 votes

Then cut it by 30-40%

EkhasmAug 23, 20199 votes

You are looking for consistency in a game that's been inconsistent since its creation, and Riot rarely addressed any of them. Recently, I feel like they completely gave up on having any design philosophy and are just yoloing random shit.

Tr4shB4NSYST3MAug 23, 20197 votes

Just another busted S9 champion

ZullarAug 23, 20194 votes

The super powerful high damage high utility ult is the price you pay in S9 for having no mobility or invisibility... oh wait... nm

Pika FoxAug 23, 20193 votes

Because it does literally 0 damage if it doesnt hit an element.

Z3SIeeperAug 23, 20195 votes

You realize this skill has 875 range right? It's actually extremely rare for this ability to not hit a wall even if it wasn't even intended to. It also has a ridiculous hitbox directly on her, basically shurima shuffling enemies behind her into it.

For reference, it has 75 more range than Caitlyn with item 3094 .

Pika FoxAug 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You realize this skill has 875 range right? It's actually extremely rare for this ability to not hit a wall even if it wasn't even intended to. It also has a ridiculous hitbox directly on her, basically shurima shuffling enemies behind her into it.

For reference, it has 75 more range than with .

So? Its still very hard for her to land it outside jungle and river, which are intentionally her strengths. Its like saying vayne/poppy e is easy to land.... Its not unless the enemy mispoaitions.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 23, 20193 votes

Vayne E is SUPER easy to land, and to make it worse, it's a great ability even if she doesn't pin a target to a wall

Pika FoxAug 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Vayne E is SUPER easy to land, and to make it worse, it's a great ability even if she doesn't pin a target to a wall

Yeah, no. Its not.

iamthegoatofwarAug 23, 20194 votes

Yeah yeah it is. The knock back on it is nice.

Pika FoxAug 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yeah yeah it is. The knock back on it is nice.

Irrelevant, as we are specifically talking about the wall hit stun interraction.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 23, 20195 votes

Except it's not irrelevant, because he was literally tuning into the little back and forth between you, me, and Sewerside regarding the efficacy of vayne's E even when it doesn't hit terrain. People forget that IT'S A POINT AND CLICK KNOCK BACK ON A HYPER MOBILE HYPER SCALING ADC ON A BASIC ABILITY. The collision with terrain is just a luxury bonus that is only necessary against the mobile bursty/high DPS people I mentioned up above. The only reason vayne isn't considered OP and overtuned right now is because currently those types of champions are becoming more and more numerous and more and more overloaded, and can shut her down real easily. It doesn't mean however, that she has fair counterplay against anyone of the 10 champs that don't belong to that category.

iamthegoatofwarAug 24, 20192 votes

Then you're refusing to look at the ability as a whole which honestly functions fairly similarly to vayne's E if you were ask me. They both function very similar so to say something is irreverent when you your self said it's "Not a good skill if it doesn't get the stun portion off" when I come in and say that it IS a good skill even with out the stun portion is outright incorrect. My comment was completely relevant and therefore valid.

Pika FoxAug 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Then you're refusing to look at the ability as a whole which honestly functions fairly similarly to vayne's E if you were ask me. They both function very similar so to say something is irreverent when you your self said it's "Not a good skill if it doesn't get the stun portion off" when I come in and say that it IS a good skill even with out the stun portion is outright incorrect. My comment was completely relevant and therefore valid.

Yeah, you keep making things up and arguing a strawman and devolving the entire argument to something irrelevant.

iamthegoatofwarAug 24, 20192 votes

Entirely relevant since it's part of the skill buddy [slayer-jinx-wink]

Pika FoxAug 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Entirely relevant since it's part of the skill buddy [slayer-jinx-wink]

Again, no, given that part is entirely not subject to the discussion. This is the last time i will entertain this dumb strawman.

iamthegoatofwarAug 25, 20191 votes

Not a strawman just cause you say it is rookie.

Pika FoxAug 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Not a strawman just cause you say it is rookie.

Youre bringing up an argument not being made then arguing against the argument you made and claiming im wrong for something that was never claimed. Yes, thats a strawman. The literal definition.

The Gray WindAug 24, 20191 votes

if it's not relevant why mention that part in the first place? [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Pika FoxAug 25, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Gray Wind,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EzpnWa9l,comment-id=0006000100000000000000000000000100000001,timestamp=2019-08-24T21:29:06.399+0000)

if it's not relevant why mention that part in the first place? [slayer-jinx-unamused]

I never did, given i was specifically talking about the into the wall interraction.

"So? Its still very hard for her to land it outside jungle and river, which are intentionally her strengths. Its like saying vayne/poppy e is easy to land.... Its not unless the enemy mispoaitions."

The original statement, clearly talking about landing it on terrain. You just made up a random ass strawman.

The Gray WindAug 30, 20191 votes

We were talking about Vayne now you're going back to Qiyana because it suits you, also I don't think throwing straw-man accusations around to cushion yourself is making this any better. Back to Vayne - which requires talking about said ability, you're saying that unless you successfully activate said interaction it is useless, we are saying that the ability isn't only good for that. Then you say that's irrelevant because despite us saying the wall interaction isn't needed which is still talking about it you say we're not talking about it.

The Gray WindAug 30, 20191 votes

Which means basically we were saying you're statement using vayne as a juxtaposition to Qiyana doesn't really work, because Vayne's E is useful as a getaway in most scenarios, 'useless', We are criticizing that.

Edit: I understand your desire to stick with the original debate subject but subjects can be changed and you're not going to get us to switch by telling us we're making straw-men because now we're trying to debate something else.

. . . summoner 12

Pika FoxAug 30, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Gray Wind,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EzpnWa9l,comment-id=000600010000000000000000000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-30T01:13:55.231+0000)

We were talking about Vayne now you're going back to Qiyana because it suits you, also I don't think throwing straw-man accusations around to cushion yourself is making this any better. Back to Vayne - which requires talking about said ability, you're saying that unless you successfully activate said interaction it is useless, we are saying that the ability isn't only good for that. Then you say that's irrelevant because despite us saying the wall interaction isn't needed which is still talking about it you say we're not talking about it.

..... Jesus fuck you dont read do you? The original comment was comparing qiyana ult to vayne/poppy knockback into wall. Holy hell. I mean, this thread is specifically about quyana.

The Gray WindAug 30, 20191 votes

summoner 12 I'm sorry that when everyone wants to debate the new thing you don't like it. I did read, my first sentence is an acknowledgement of it. You've only been rude so none of us want to go back to it, even if to just humor you.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 23, 20193 votes

Yeah it's a great ability even if it doesn't land on wall. Maybe not against assassins or jax/irelia, but against anyone who doesn't have a million dashes, it's awesome. I can be 2 or 3 levels up on vayne and have tri force too, but as soon as she E's me, no matter what I collide or don't collide with, I've lost the fight, unless I have flash AND ghost or she makes TERRIBLE decisions. Otherwise she proceed to melt me like no other. All she has to do is wait for me to use my E. The best part is that, again aside from Sum spells, it has zero counter play. To make it worse, being immobile against her means you have neither the ability nor the time to take the "optimal" approach in order to avoid colliding with terrain. You simply try to bum rush her or gtfo because there are no other options if you don't want to get melted in 2-4 seconds flat.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 23, 20192 votes

It's better than braum ult imo

Support PositionAug 24, 20192 votes

Her nerf 9.17: R Cooldown going to FLAT 120 FROM 120/90/80 (or something like that.)

Good nerf direction. After 9.17 then you can cry about whatever if shes still broken. But wait till then.

Frontline FuryAug 24, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Support Position,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EzpnWa9l,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2019-08-24T03:58:20.509+0000)

Her nerf 9.17: R Cooldown going to FLAT 120 FROM 120/90/80 (or something like that.)

Good nerf direction. After 9.17 then you can cry about whatever if shes still broken. But wait till then.

I think that'll be plenty, actually. I don't want her to not be able to perform oneshots at all - that's what all the assassins do. But she shouldn't be able to perform that oneshot ALL the time (even multiple times in single fights) or ACCIDENTALLY pick up a kill when she just intended to use her ult as a disengage (which i see happening a lot in diamond, where her ult does so much damage she didn't expect that she returns to the fight to pick up the kill on her pursuer.)

As long as champions like Khazix and Akali are allowed to exist i think we can never truly call Qiyana overpowered. She's just slightly overtuned, is all. Probably to compensate for most league players being very slow learners.

Support PositionAug 24, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EzpnWa9l,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2019-08-24T04:45:55.173+0000)

I think that'll be plenty, actually. I don't want her to not be able to perform oneshots at all - that's what all the assassins do. But she shouldn't be able to perform that oneshot ALL the time (even multiple times in single fights) or ACCIDENTALLY pick up a kill when she just intended to use her ult as a disengage (which i see happening a lot in diamond, where her ult does so much damage she didn't expect that she returns to the fight to pick up the kill on her pursuer.)

As long as champions like Khazix and Akali are allowed to exist i think we can never truly call Qiyana overpowered. She's just slightly overtuned, is all. Probably to compensate for most league players being very slow learners.

Yea I agree. She has too much damage in every regard. And needs flat scaling down by more than 10. Around 40-50 marks :/

CaptainAntiHerozAug 24, 20192 votes

the fact that your ult is jack shit useless if there are no walls around

preternaturalAug 23, 20191 votes

hey everybody, do this. go to practice tool. go to the middle of the lane where there are no structures or river. put down an enemy dummy. and press R. tell me what the dmg is.

2Charmnot2CharmAug 23, 20198 votes

{quoted}

hey everybody, do this. go to practice tool. go to the middle of the lane where there are no structures or river. put down an enemy dummy. and press R. tell me what the dmg is.

Imagine thinking its fine because it deals no damage when THIS is a thing https://streamable.com/wl904

It dealing no damage in the middle of lane makes sense with how strong it is near objectives and jungle fights [zombie-brand-facepalm]

It's already getting it's cooldown nerfed so [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

preternaturalAug 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Imagine thinking its fine because it deals no damage when THIS is a thing https://streamable.com/wl904

It dealing no damage in the middle of lane makes sense with how strong it is near objectives and jungle fights [zombie-brand-facepalm]

It's already getting it's cooldown nerfed so [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

it's only useful around terrain and in river. jesus christ man, use your brain for real instead of pretending to.

2Charmnot2CharmAug 23, 20197 votes