So I can tell that a lot of people hate Courage of the Colossus

Ralanr··3 votes·1,817 views

And are demanding it be nerfed. But I haven't really seen any nerf suggestions.

Now, as some of you may know, I'm a tank main that does like the new mastery. But I agree that it's really strong right now for it's intended users are is surprisingly strong for other picks (like Riven or some divers).

Now the main reason I like this mastery is the fact that it requires hard CC to proc. This prevents most juggernauts (who IMO end up causing balance issues for tank stuff) from being able to use it. I can only think of two-three juggernauts who can proc it.

Darius, Volibear, and (arguably because I'm not sure if she's a diver or juggernaut) Shyvanna when her buffs come through (fixed dragon ult).

But for the role it seems designed for, it may be too good of a mastery and is basically becoming the TLD for hard CC champions.

So how do we nerf it? I have three ideas that I think could work without completely gutting the mastery for its intended users.

  1. Just simply reduce the scaling. Tone it down to 5% of max health instead of 7 (or 6. Idk if 5 would just gut it, but the basic idea is just reducing it). It's the simplest approach and probably will be the first one attempted.

  2. Put a cap on how many champions increase the shield scaling. This idea I don't like because it overall weakens the teamfight presence of this mastery (which was the main point of it) and slowly turns it into a better dueling or short skirmish one. It's an idea, but I feel it hurts the intended audience.

  3. Make the shield scale off a higher percentage of your bonus health. This way it loses benefits on high damage champions unless they build durability over damage (which would cut their damage because unlike old fervor, this mastery doesn't give free damage) and better benefits tanks that use this mastery because they're more likely to build health.

Now I like option three the most, but there is one tank group it hurts. Support tanks. If bot lane gets ahead, then it isn't as bad since those tanks can buy their health items. But if behind, their bonus health shields aren't going to do much with little bonus health. This could make the mastery more of a risk choice in bot lane over Bond, so it allows some choice.

I also think we should increase the healing on grasp but decrease the damage a bit so it provides more sustain for those top laners.

Thoughts?

79 Comments

Malicious Metal4 votes

Okay, a minor nitpick but when exactly did JUGGERNAUTS abuse Tank items?

Ralanr1 votes

Honestly that's probably my bias towards Mundo showing. And that I have some odd fear that Riot will actually take the "NERF TANKS BECAUSE DARIUS DOES TOO MUCH DAMAGE" threads seriously.

Wolfram Oxford1 votes

Well I have played a lot as every role and think that Juggernauts are often too strong, same with a lot of bruisers, but tanks themselves aren't really as strong as either of those two and you can't really look towards nerfing tanks as a whole if you want to hit these groups, otherwise you have weak tanks and balanced juggernauts/bruisers still leaving you with the problem of tanks being weak.

Ralanr1 votes

They usually benefit off of similar items and masteries though. Hurt those and you hurt tanks.

Wolfram Oxford1 votes

That is what I said, but if they did want to nerf juggernauts and bruisers they would have to find a way besides hitting tank items, perhaps targeting Black Cleaver and Trinity Force, their main damage items.

EndlessSorcerer3 votes

As proven throughout the years, Mundo will abuse any good defensive items or masteries.

Malicious Metal3 votes

I don't consider Mundo a Juggernaut.

I consider him an abomination.

EndlessSorcerer4 votes

Well, you aren't wrong...

RocketRelm1 votes

So, Ezreal but for tanks?

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Alternatively, Kayle but for tanks.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Definately am feeling a buff for Grasp. More heal less damage.

As for courage it does its job. A four second shield may seem overbearing but people are so used to blowing up whatever is closest to them whether they are priotity targets or not.

Not to mention this mastery lets tanks actually do their job and tank damage for a little bit.

However on champs that can abuse it it's a problem. So bonus health scaling might be a good stat to buff.

Malicious Metal2 votes

Grasp's damage is already pretty darn low.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Really? When was that nerfed?

And anyway I onlu wanted less damage if it means more sustain. After all we have plenty of damage masteries.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

I'd love to see them completely get rid of the damage so the healing can be noticable tbh :l

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

That statement reminds me of how I though the keystone worked when I was level 10 and working towards unlocking it.

I thought that becuase of the effect text and becuase thr mastery was called Grasp of the Undying it meant that I could essentially stay alive forever as long as I could auto the enemy to proc it.

But yeah, the juggernauts who use the mastery have enough damage. What we want is infight sustain.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

But yeah, the juggernauts who use the mastery have enough damage. What we want is infight sustain.

Aye. I also would love to see tanks become reallly hard to kill, but have laughable damage.

Currently, tanks are just really fucking well rounded around the midgame, Nobody has a last whisper yet, they have their CC and their base damage is still relevant. While later on people buy a LW, your base damage falls off and you kinda just cry. I'd love to see that change.

Ralanr1 votes

Idk, I kinda like having Sion's damage still be relevant mid.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Let's say Tanks being Really tanky but pityful damagewise would become a reality;

Sion would still need to be rewarded for having such a dodgeable, unreliable kit. Which could be damage, even more tankyness, even more CC potential. Having Above-Average-Damage-For-A-Tank kinda makes sense for Sion IMO, because he still has the whole MUUUURDUUUUUUUR WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR COWAAAAAAAAAAAARDS thing going on, y'know?

Ralanr1 votes

Yeah, but when people talk about cutting down tank damage, I fear Sion would not escape from that despite his decent damage output being one of the things in his kit.

Plus reducing his damage hurts his waveclear, which is something that Sion is supposed to be good as since he's a lane pushing bully that scales into a hypertank.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Yeah wave clear and jungle clear is an issue that should should be adressed. Ask yourself though, what would you value more? Being a massive hyper tank, or being able to murder someone and not be a hyper tank because someone bought item 3036 Also, those AD Ratios tho, you could probably sacrifice some tankyness for a BC if you desire to deal damage on Sion

Ralanr1 votes

I mean, late game I don't care about doing damage. If I kill someone I kill someone, but that's not my goal. So if you're talking about late game, I can agree to buff durability at the cost of offensive power (though I doubt no defense marksmen will still be able to survive a fight against me if they fuck up).

Not a big fan of BC on Sion honestly. I prefer FM or Titanic if I need a damage item. I'll still build BC if I find myself in a situation that calls for it (or if I'm going juggernaut Sion).

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Not a big fan of BC on Sion honestly. I prefer FM or Titanic if I need a damage item. I'll still build BC if I find myself in a situation that calls for it (or if I'm going juggernaut Sion).

It was just an example :P BC is probably the best example of an offensive item in a defensive build. :P

Big Lincoln1 votes

i mean the whole point of it is sustain, yeah? it should be more of that; remove the damage, and then buff the heck out of the scaling.

i don't think resolve should be giving you damage options tbh

Ralanr2 votes

Honestly I liked how it provided a tanky damage option, but it's clear that it isn't working out with it.

Big Lincoln4 votes

tank+damage is too easily abused as we've seen in the past

but offering sustain for juggernauts with tanks sacrificing CoC for it? that's much less offensive

Wolfram Oxford1 votes

Perhaps let it proc every 3 seconds, and then increase the heal a bit, plus make it the same for ranged and melee.

Ralanr6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wolfram Oxford,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EvJ44A9X,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2016-11-17T15:01:24.822+0000)

Perhaps let it proc every 3 seconds, and then increase the heal a bit, plus make it the same for ranged and melee.

https://imgflip.com/s/meme/How-About-No-Bear.jpg

Wolfram Oxford1 votes

Let's be honest here, any keystone for damage is stronger than Grasp and Warlord's is better for sustain. Having Grasp be the same for both ranged and melee would allow ranged tanks to use this keystone efficiently. Think about champions such as; Gnar Vladimir Ivern (In his bush)

Ralanr3 votes

Except ranged top laners are annoying as is.

Also Vladimir isn't a tank. He's just durable.

Wolfram Oxford1 votes

You scale harder anyways and farming under turret is an option, hell even Riot gave melees a mastery for it (gives bonus resists under tower).

Ralanr3 votes

Because that's what we want, something that only benefits if we're losing lane. /salt.

Wait how do melee tanks outscale Gnar and Vlad?

Wolfram Oxford1 votes

I meant ranged in general, plus the damage that most champions deal to you will be heavily negated once you start to build items. So lets say you love bitching about Quinn because you always face Quinn as Garen and you feed her because you're bad, eventually you will build enough resists and HP where even though you are a bad melee player you are tanky enough where Quinn's damage is minimal and if she tries to fight you she will die, regardless of skill gap.

Ralanr4 votes

Uhh...that's not how it works. Damage outscales durability and with proper kiting Quinn can make sure people can't hurt her much.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

You mean... reverting the change Riot made not even 6 months ago?

Sahn Uzal2 votes

Just simply reduce the scaling. Tone it down to 5% of max health instead of 7 (or 6. Idk if 5 would just gut it, but the basic idea is just reducing it). It's the simplest approach and probably will be the first one attempted.

If tanks being too strong with it is the issue, that's probably the way to go.

Put a cap on how many champions increase the shield scaling. This idea I don't like because it overall weakens the teamfight presence of this mastery (which was the main point of it) and slowly turns it into a better dueling or short skirmish one. It's an idea, but I feel it hurts the intended audience.

This one seems pretty fair to me. It would still be a strong keystone for the ones who should use it, but less extreme in specific cases. Similar to Darius' Q healing from up to 3 champions.

Make the shield scale off a higher percentage of your bonus health. This way it loses benefits on high damage champions unless they build durability over damage (which would cut their damage because unlike old fervor, this mastery doesn't give free damage) and better benefits tanks that use this mastery because they're more likely to build health.

I don't think this really is an issue, is it? I mean things like Renekton and Riven can use it, but it's not crowding out their other choices. It's propably not even optimal

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EvJ44A9X,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-17T14:20:14.319+0000)

If tanks being too strong with it is the issue, that's probably the way to go.

This one seems pretty fair to me. It would still be a strong keystone for the ones who should use it, but less extreme in specific cases. Similar to Darius' Q healing from up to 3 champions.

I don't think this really is an issue, is it? I mean things like Renekton and Riven can use it, but it's not crowding out their other choices. It's propably not even optimal

Yes, yes it is.

Adrianaries said he'd take it in 99% of games :P

Wolfram Oxford2 votes

I think it is fine as is, doesn't really need nerfs.

Sire Hippington2 votes

I really don't think Courage beeing usable by non tanks is an issue. I rather dislike it beeing gated by hard cc, niche masterys lead to no choices. My champion has reliable hard cc? CoC. Just how Fervor was always the go-to mastery for anyone with good on-hit synergie, or how deathfiregrasp is a rather obvious choice for dot mages. Also, i see really no issue with Juggernauts getting acces to it, they deserve tankiness atleast as much as tanks(they actually need it more to funktion). Darius gets the big shield from E? throw a slow at him and go away for 4sec, no big deal as slows are everywhere these days. Honestly, most juggernats really lack a proper mastery as grasp somewhat sucks after all the nerfs and for goes into a wrong direction. i would want survivabillity from my resolve tree, not more damage.

If masteries really should be a choice based on personal playstyle and prefferences, they need to be less niche and more generally useable.

Now for CoC specifically, i think it's somewhat overtuned, especially on squishys. Imo the base value(10+10/level) should get lowered or maybe even removed(with a higher %value if removed completely), But i really see no issue in champs like riven pr Irelia useing it. It costs them the damage other masteries would offer and thus comes at a price. It's a good thing they can opt for more survivabillity in temfights opposed to just getting more damage. It actually gives the a choice to make

Ralanr2 votes

My issue with juggernauts using it is because they usually have some sort of sustain to help them survive in fights and end up seeming more tanky (Darius's heal in a teamfight for example) while sustain isn't exactly common among solo lane tanks (I think Maokai has sustain, but I'm not sure on the others).

Plus this keeps Mundo from the mastery and I'd prefer to keep Mundo away from the mastery that makes you harder to kill. Especially since Mundo is a tanky damage threat.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Me thinks you have something against Mundo lol.

Ralanr1 votes

I won't deny that. It's probably because my team never counterbuilds him and I can only do so much to hold him back.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

{quoted}

I won't deny that. It's probably because my team never counterbuilds him and I can only do so much to hold him back.

See that's the problem. Your team understands this and you don't yet.

It's the number 5 rule of LoL.

Mundo goes where he pleases. :P

Sire Hippington2 votes

Most tanks either have strong shields or sustain aswell, and juggernauts have their sustain for a damn good reason. they are imobile, lack cc and their damage needs some time rather than beeing a fast burst. They need to stay in the fight for a long time to be off use while beeing open for ALL retaliation duering the entire time. There is no class that needs survivabillity more than them. A maokai can root in from a distance and just with that root he provides already important lockdown on a priority target, and then he can use Q and E for some more cc and good burst. After that, he can actually fall back till his skills come of cc if he feels he needs to. Darius needs to stay infight to stack his passive up and unlock his full damage, and while his E has some potential, it has a low range and can be avoided with mobility, if he dies befor entering his rage mode, he has nearly no impact on a fight.

And again, that masterie gives a shield for 4 sec, usually at the start of a fight(you rarly hold back your cc for long) Juggernauts are know for how easy they are to kite, it's not that hard to disengage from them for those 4 sec. I personaly would prefer old grasp, or a reverse of the current(3% heal, 1.5% damage) for juggernauts though. Sustained tankyness fits them more.

Ralanr1 votes

Agreed on the sustained tankiness part for juggernauts.

LadyRenly1 votes

its just a braindead mastery.

TyrekGoldenspear6 votes

You mean like all the other keystones you don't have to think about?

Do me a favor and define brainless, becuase at least this has a condition instead of TLD.

LadyRenly1 votes

{quoted}

You mean like all the other keystones you don't have to think about?

Do me a favor and define brainless, becuase at least this has a condition instead of TLD.

before, leona and alistar have to weigh the pros/cons of diving in, now they can just do it willy nilly

zlumpy1 votes

It needs to proc less often. It enables some pretty damn hard snowball on tanks that are ahead because they become so difficult to kill. Especially if someone else on the team has a shield item like face. A malphite with colosus, passive, and face shield basically doubles his HP value every engagement. Limiting just how many shields someone can take in a period of time may be the way to go. Heck I wouldnt be surprised if tank jungles with hard engage just run smite and shield because they know they just arent going to need flash to stay alive now.

Leafri1 votes

My CoC post was way better honestly.

Ralanr1 votes

And you seem to be following me.

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