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Senna is proof that the Balance Team knowingly disregards their own lines and limits

Eternal Torment··10 votes·2,598 views

Short and to the point: Every single ability in Senna's kit, save for her Q, is something the balance team had sworn not to implement because they had said it was too broken.

Passive enhancing crit chance? ADCs would gain unfair gold advantage and make for easier crit builts which are intentionally crated behind large gold costs to keep the power in check. Yet Senna gains it for free because fuck you and your elo.

Her W AoE Hard CC on a Basic Ability? The very few champions that have it need ridiculous conditions to meet (Like Xerath needs all 5 champions to literally stand ontop of each others hitbox wise, same as Anivia), yet senna gains it with a very large range IN COMPARISON because fuck you and your ELO

Her E AoE Shroud-knockoff? Not only is it an AoE camouflage, when you immediately leave it or if it ends, all 5 champions are covered in an animation so you can't tell who is who. Riot has vividly expressed to never give an ability to stealth the entire team because it would make for borderline broken and frustrating mechanics, yet Senna has it because fuck you and your elo

Her R A GLOBAL beam? The only reason Lux' R, a Beam of the same kind, has a limited range is because making it global was going to be too powerful on a support-ish damage dealing champion, yet senna has it because fuck you and your ELO. And the delay from one map side to the other is, based on the so far leaked footage, less than seconds. Ezreal's R for example takes nearly 20 seconds to reach top lane outer turret from bot lane outter turret, but Senna's Beam, based on the Footage of This Video with Timestamp takes just below 2 seconds. I REPEAT, A GLOBAL BEAM WITH TO-EXPECT ULTIMATE DAMAGE ON AN ADC LESS THAN 2 SECONDS DELAY FROM MAP END TO MAP END

Senna is the embodiment of disregard to every single line drawn in the sand when it comes to balance choices being made and which mechanics were purposefully avoided.

This champ can be broken or underpowered, but the one thing she certainly is is a big, fat sign of disrespect to the balance.

I can only hope they will change those mechanics out before release and make it fair because no matter what, she will be way too unfair to fight and will be incredibly frustrating.

Edit: People really seem to love changing their minds. The Page reveals and the Skin Spotlight video on YT explain the very same issues and these comments get thousands of upvotes yet here the very same words and critics are negatively received.

21 Comments

Illabethe7 votes

Things wrong with your assumptions:

  1. That Senna has a Fire Rate like other adcs. With the exception of Jhin and maybe Graves, Senna has a SLOW attack speed.

Passive - Absolution Senna's Relic Cannon is slow to fire, but deals bonus damage. She can power up its range, Attack Damage, and Crit chance over time by absorbing Mist from enemy champions she's attacking or from wraiths that spawn from dead enemies.

In other words, she's going to be gated heavily by attack speed as part of her "Support" function. In other words, she most likely is gated in how much of an adc she actually can be. So, Scaling Crit/AD makes sense to justify low attack speed.

Furthermore, most of her abilities scale to AP, so AD has to come from somewhere. If you build her Crit/AD, it's likely you will under-utilize her kit.

  1. That W is OP:

a) the aoe size of W is 1/5th the size of Varus's Ult, and it takes 2 seconds to proc the root (which is not a strong CC, and the duration is lower than most roots) You can easily avoid chain rooting.

b) skills like this are common across the champ board...... Neeko for example gets it free, no delays, and lasts MUCH longer.

  1. E:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hfcLGdQd-senna-e?comment=0000

There are severe limitations on her E that no one running on impulse is considering, and it's not exactly gamebreaking as a team stealth. You learn to engage. It's no different than fighting in Ivern's bushes.

  1. R:

Lux's R can also Proc Light Energy, dealing additional damage. Senna's R has no such thing. It's a flat rate with no execute (Jinx) or added damage (Lux), and the amount suggests to be a little lower in damage.

P.S. Karthus ult is 3 seconds to hit the entire map. P.P.S. Lux is actually a Mid and was designed as a mid. The reason it's a semi global is because of the low cooldown, and her passive, not the skill itself.

You're basically overstating abilities in a bubble before you've even discovered the counterplay/limitations, and trying to compare apples to oranges in the ults.

Eternal Torment1 votes

{quoted}

Things wrong with your assumptions:

  1. That Senna has a Fire Rate like other adcs. With the exception of Jhin and maybe Graves, Senna has a SLOW attack speed.

Passive - Absolution Senna's Relic Cannon is slow to fire, but deals bonus damage. She can power up its range, Attack Damage, and Crit chance over time by absorbing Mist from enemy champions she's attacking or from wraiths that spawn from dead enemies.

In other words, she's going to be gated heavily by attack speed as part of her "Support" function. In other words, she most likely is gated in how much of an adc she actually can be. So, Scaling Crit/AD makes sense to justify low attack speed.

Furthermore, most of her abilities scale to AP, so AD has to come from somewhere. If you build her Crit/AD, it's likely you will under-utilize her kit.

  1. That W is OP:

a) the aoe size of W is 1/5th the size of Varus's Ult, and it takes 2 seconds to proc the root (which is not a strong CC, and the duration is lower than most roots) You can easily avoid chain rooting.

b) skills like this are common across the champ board...... Neeko for example gets it free, no delays, and lasts MUCH longer.

  1. E:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hfcLGdQd-senna-e?comment=0000

There are severe limitations on her E that no one running on impulse is considering, and it's not exactly gamebreaking as a team stealth. You learn to engage. It's no different than fighting in Ivern's bushes.

  1. R:

Lux's R can also Proc Light Energy, dealing additional damage. Senna's R has no such thing. It's a flat rate with no execute (Jinx) or added damage (Lux), and the amount suggests to be a little lower in damage.

P.S. Karthus ult is 3 seconds to hit the entire map. P.P.S. Lux is actually a Mid and was designed as a mid. The reason it's a semi global is because of the low cooldown, and her passive, not the skill itself.

You're basically overstating abilities in a bubble before you've even discovered the counterplay/limitations, and trying to compare apples to oranges in the ults.

  1. Slow doesn't mean locked. Jhin's attack speed is convered into raw stats because he benefits null from it for attack speed. She still gains the attack speed far as is currently known, so the gating isn't really going to serve much other than an unnecessary delay. If it were vividly stated to be locked, that would be a different story. But it isn't.

  2. Her W has fewer restrictions than most other AoE hard cc abilities on basics. You did the very thing I specifically pointed out to be the difference, which is compare it to an ultimate. I have very specifically refered to basic abilities, aka Q W and E. The root may initially be delayed, but it's guaranteed on a hit and it's instant on last hits. This is almost literally a re-skin of Zoe's E, her by far most hated ability. The differences are mostly there to nitpick and say "yea but it's not the same."

  3. There is a reason why there were specific statements made about never implementing global beams. Karthus' ability isn't a beam. Yeah, it still hits everyone, true, but he has a delay that is so telegraphed you can still very well act against it. Beams are far faster because their signs are small hitbox-indicators (Lux literally places a red line that is just a few pixels wide accompanied by the sound of her charge, both things that are more likely to make you panic if not very regularily fighting against it). Senna's, from the video so far shown by Skin Spotlight, also has a very faint indicator on the ground where it travels, but the colour was so faint I had to rewatch the video on 0.25x speed a few times to finally see it.

Then not only is it a massive hitbox on a global beam, it has a 3x as large hitbox for ally shielding. As other posts pointed out (and were HIGHLY positively received with voiced agreement) you need to be downright blind to miss that ultimate and very likely will get reported for trolling if you somehow do, that's how large the hitbox appears to the majority.

Last but not least, your response is more than 50% derailing and downgrading. I specified once again "She can be broken or underpowered." meaning the stats and results are irrelevant. The point is that her entire kit represents a direct violations to lines and limits were promised to never suffer. Senna's kit is the single biggest fuck you to blacklisted mechanics to date, a blacklist made by the same devs. The question isn't how to counter them, it's why are they there in the first place?

Illabethe2 votes

  1. We'll see about the speed thing but I'm pretty sure it's literal in its meaning (ie something like a permanently reduced by 40% total attack speed, given its description).

a) I was giving perspective to the size. It's a common size for a Normal skill CC. b) I also compared it to Neeko's E, which is a common, far more powerful both in scaling and setting. c) It is NOTHING like what people complained about in Zoe's E: Zoe's E complaints were tied to 1) Its infinite range passing through walls 2) The fact it doubled damage taken by the next skill hit, making it potentially a killer, and the misinterpretation that the "double" was True damage, when in reality it was just to make sure that Magic resist doesn't get calculated TWICE due to how the double damage was coded. There was also a complaint about it being an uncleansable ability.

Sleep =/= Root.

  1. I have no problems dodging Lux. Ever.

Also, once again: her ULT SCALES LOWER DAMAGE THAN OTHER GLOBALS, has no execute, has no extra added damage on proc. It's just its flat damage. Period. That contrasts with literally every other global outside of Karthus, who is currently only scaling Dark Harvest.

P.S. I don't give a crap about forums

(and were HIGHLY positively received with voiced agreement)

News Flash: Most forum posters are impulsive, not scientific, not calculating, and usually working off second hand opinions because they are too lazy to do work on their own. They believe they know everything before everything is even available. Not credible. Kind of like people crying about an OP low skill base champ when that champ has a 46% win rate, even in high elo.

I'm sorry but I don't believe Riot ever promised not to do any of these things in the context of the kit they are shipping. Sometimes they make a generic comment about some feature in an overly broad statement, and leave an opinion in your head of what they meant, while their own interpretation is something else entirely. But I'm pretty sure they never explicitly said,

"It is our goal not to release an aoe Stealth that can be disrupted every time you take an action, or when opponents come near you, or you go near them."

Eternal Torment1 votes

{quoted}

  1. We'll see about the speed thing but I'm pretty sure it's literal in its meaning (ie something like a permanently reduced by 40% total attack speed, given its description).

a) I was giving perspective to the size. It's a common size for a Normal skill CC. b) I also compared it to Neeko's E, which is a common, far more powerful both in scaling and setting. c) It is NOTHING like what people complained about in Zoe's E: Zoe's E complaints were tied to 1) Its infinite range passing through walls 2) The fact it doubled damage taken by the next skill hit, making it potentially a killer, and the misinterpretation that the "double" was True damage, when in reality it was just to make sure that Magic resist doesn't get calculated TWICE due to how the double damage was coded. There was also a complaint about it being an uncleansable ability.

Sleep =/= Root.

  1. I have no problems dodging Lux. Ever.

Also, once again: her ULT SCALES LOWER DAMAGE THAN OTHER GLOBALS, has no execute, has no extra added damage on proc. It's just its flat damage. Period. That contrasts with literally every other global outside of Karthus, who is currently only scaling Dark Harvest.

P.S. I don't give a crap about forums

News Flash: Most forum posters are impulsive, not scientific, not calculating, and usually working off second hand opinions because they are too lazy to do work on their own. They believe they know everything before everything is even available. Not credible. Kind of like people crying about an OP low skill base champ when that champ has a 46% win rate, even in high elo.

I'm sorry but I don't believe Riot ever promised not to do any of these things in the context of the kit they are shipping. Sometimes they make a generic comment about some feature in an overly broad statement, and leave an opinion in your head of what they meant, while their own interpretation is something else entirely. But I'm pretty sure they never explicitly said,

Except they actually did say they wouldn't do it.

Lux's early concept in 2010 had a flat damage global beam with no empowerments like her passive and a stealth granted to allies and both never made it past initial testing from being unbalanceable.

BBKong1 votes

{quoted}

  1. We'll see about the speed thing but I'm pretty sure it's literal in its meaning (ie something like a permanently reduced by 40% total attack speed, given its description).

Actually, I just tested that after seeing this thread. My only AS rune was the 10% stat (no alacrity or anything) and I grabbed berserkers (35%) and 5 wit's ends (50% per) and level 18 (?%) and hit 1.35 attack speed. It's not "capped" but it just scales far, far slower it feels.

Clip: (if it's laggy, I was using Gyazo gif so)

https://i.gyazo.com/83a78afb63eb575c40212db3fc0b7421.mp4

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

Things wrong with your assumptions:

  1. That Senna has a Fire Rate like other adcs. With the exception of Jhin and maybe Graves, Senna has a SLOW attack speed.

Passive - Absolution Senna's Relic Cannon is slow to fire, but deals bonus damage. She can power up its range, Attack Damage, and Crit chance over time by absorbing Mist from enemy champions she's attacking or from wraiths that spawn from dead enemies.

In other words, she's going to be gated heavily by attack speed as part of her "Support" function. In other words, she most likely is gated in how much of an adc she actually can be. So, Scaling Crit/AD makes sense to justify low attack speed.

Furthermore, most of her abilities scale to AP, so AD has to come from somewhere. If you build her Crit/AD, it's likely you will under-utilize her kit.

  1. That W is OP:

a) the aoe size of W is 1/5th the size of Varus's Ult, and it takes 2 seconds to proc the root (which is not a strong CC, and the duration is lower than most roots) You can easily avoid chain rooting.

b) skills like this are common across the champ board...... Neeko for example gets it free, no delays, and lasts MUCH longer.

  1. E:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hfcLGdQd-senna-e?comment=0000

There are severe limitations on her E that no one running on impulse is considering, and it's not exactly gamebreaking as a team stealth. You learn to engage. It's no different than fighting in Ivern's bushes.

  1. R:

Lux's R can also Proc Light Energy, dealing additional damage. Senna's R has no such thing. It's a flat rate with no execute (Jinx) or added damage (Lux), and the amount suggests to be a little lower in damage.

P.S. Karthus ult is 3 seconds to hit the entire map. P.P.S. Lux is actually a Mid and was designed as a mid. The reason it's a semi global is because of the low cooldown, and her passive, not the skill itself.

You're basically overstating abilities in a bubble before you've even discovered the counterplay/limitations, and trying to compare apples to oranges in the ults.

uhhhhhhhhh having played on a friends account, if you buy attack speed on Senna you attack faster........ its just the rate of fire is lower so you've got it backwards

also its really dope how she can shoot through wards, plants. creeps, etc with Q

beyond that I aint even gonna go into it.......... I could bring in a funny screen shot with some BIG ASS numbers but thats about it

VoidThicc3 votes

The negative votes you are receiving are very hypocritical

I mean this post:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hLi3k5En-there-is-0-chance-that-senna-abilities-remain-the-same-2-3-months-after-release

Says pretty much the same thing, the title literally says it and one of the comments confirms that her kit contains things that earlier champion designs were scrapped for as non balanceable, yet here somehow people jump the bandwagon of hate.

Do people really hate you so much they become full on hypocrits just to express it?

Eternal Torment1 votes

{quoted}

The negative votes you are receiving are very hypocritical

I mean this post:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hLi3k5En-there-is-0-chance-that-senna-abilities-remain-the-same-2-3-months-after-release

Says pretty much the same thing, the title literally says it and one of the comments confirms that her kit contains things that earlier champion designs were scrapped for as non balanceable, yet here somehow people jump the bandwagon of hate.

Do people really hate you so much they become full on hypocrits just to express it?

Apparently. Ask them, not me.

Illabethe1 votes

The negative votes are the very same people who are upvoting my comments on the subject (suddenly; for about a day they were downvoting because I'm breaking down why she won't be broken, while everyone else seems to actually just be on a Hate Riot Trip. But one of the posts I made today apparently got some to change their minds.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hfcLGdQd-senna-e?comment=0000

Feel free to downvote. I don't care.

Makarakarn2 votes

I've played as and against her a good bit so far on the PBE, and I can attest that everything you've said in this thread is bullshit. Trust me, she's not NEARLY as op as you're making her out to be.

xDogMeatx1 votes

how does her scaling work on her abilities?

Makarakarn1 votes

{quoted}

how does her scaling work on her abilities?

She actually has both Ap and Ad scaling, which is cool cause it means that you can surprisingly build support items with decent success. She has a weird build path though, because her passive gives her adc stats, but a lot of good adc items with effects she'd like also give said useless stats (crit/attack speed)

xDogMeatx1 votes

imo i would buy a infinity edge/shield Amp items/transcendence it up.

BBKong1 votes

{quoted}

I've played as and against her a good bit so far on the PBE, and I can attest that everything you've said in this thread is bullshit. Trust me, she's not NEARLY as op as you're making her out to be.

This. She feels fine although her E MAY be a bit too strong/too long of a duration once people get good at playing her. Besides that, people are overreacting without actually seeing her limitations. Of course, we don't have any idea if there's something we're missing, and she could very well be OP once she hits live. But it doesn't really feel that way, she just feels good with a maybe slightly too strong E to me.

Makarakarn1 votes

{quoted}

This. She feels fine although her E MAY be a bit too strong/too long of a duration once people get good at playing her. Besides that, people are overreacting without actually seeing her limitations. Of course, we don't have any idea if there's something we're missing, and she could very well be OP once she hits live. But it doesn't really feel that way, she just feels good with a maybe slightly too strong E to me.

And her E is easy to misuse by her allies. It's like Tahm kench devour, in that allies usually cancel it from panick. Because doing ANYTHING will reveal you.

Tokishi1 votes

Can't wait to see what the other upcoming games are going to be like...they already showed they can't balance tft well as Jinx has been meta since the moment she was released and top 3 usually have a jinx comp lol

Hayaishi21 votes

The balance team doesn't design the champions tho.

Only thing this proves is that every new champion is meant to displace the older ones.

Eternal Torment1 votes

{quoted}

The balance team doesn't design the champions tho.

Only thing this proves is that every new champion is meant to displace the older ones.

They still have a say in mechanics that can and can't come into the picture and why/why not. This was greenlighted by them because they have to make testing for all kits and changes done before releasing it.

They may have not made the abilities, but they greenlighted them none the less.

LPapa1 votes

Pretty sure they don't give a damn about balance anymore. It's about what champs can do flashy plays so people will buy them and their skins after watching pros and streamers do it.

Pantheon has invulnerability on a basic ability.... Has a 100% ban rate at world's. Qiyana, an assassin who for some reason has 2 forms of hard CC (something they said assassins shouldn't have, to enable counterplay) has a 90% pick/ban rate. Throw in Akali, especially on release, and you can see that they honestly couldn't care less about balance. Surprised they haven't announced they're bringing back DFG

MaKNooB1 votes

I've noticed though multiple threads that nearly anyone in Forums will defend riot after releasing a completely broken champion. why? why will you defend a champion with the highest win rate longest range in the game/global ult/stun/invisibility/passive life steal/passive Movement speed buff/Healing team abilities/and Shielding Team ability? I'm a sorry riot if I know a champion is overloaded ill say something rather than defend it so I can gain elo in ranked for champion abuse. item 3073 @Illabethe this is what I mean by white nighting a post. Facts and statistics don't lie Senna is broken and overload stop trying to defend her abilitys when you know the champion is overloaded and is extremely lane dominate. "discovered the counterplay/limitations, and trying to compare apples to oranges in the ults." weird how you defending her wholehearted when you have been spamming the champion. sounds Biased to me

Ahri the Foxlady1 votes

I can only agree with you honestly

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