Riot, why are you nerfing Shen's only offensive move?

Melledoneus·Aug 23, 2016·166 votes·6,245 views

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/08/823-pbe-update.html

Shen Twilight Assault (Q) Next 3 attack damage lowered to 2/2.5/3/3.5/4% of target's max health from 3/3.5/4/4.5/5% Extra damage against minions/monsters hit reduced to 30/40/50/60/70 from 30/50/70/110

Shen's win rate, with the average number of people playing him having over 64 games with him, is 48.58%. He already suffers in lane because of his low tank stats, and his Q is the only thing that lets him survive in lane.

I suppose we should just drop all of our mains and play Riven again, because she got buffed for "not being viable against top laners." But let's nerf Shen again, he's broken apparently.

Edit: Hey, look, more nerfs.

Ki Barrier (Passive) shield duration lowered to 1.5 from 2.5 seconds.

169 Comments

MarshbouyAug 23, 201663 votes

Usually i can explain why riot is doing a change but this time i just, can't. It seems like there are literally no reasons for this.

MelledoneusAug 23, 20169 votes

I wish they'd give some context. Or just NOT GO THROUGH WITH THEM.

They already ruined his laning phase with the buffing of all the champions he counters, if they gut him like this I will quit this game immediately and never go back. This is an unjustifiable nerf, since his damage is reliant on his opponents being melee, in range, and short on mobility and CC. The least they could do is at least let it do the minimal amounts of damage it does now.

GoatfishAug 24, 20164 votes

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BioticBronyAug 24, 201613 votes

Then why nerf damage done to minions and monsters? This is gonna make it even harder for him to get past laning phase.

Please nerf ZoeAug 24, 20163 votes

ask akali senpai,worst champion to cs with,so damn squishy atm,you go for a cs and lose half your health only from an AA of the enemy champion

ShivarusAug 24, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Or just NOT GO THROUGH WITH THEM.

There's no need to get so mad right now. This has only been on the PBE one day, there's a good chance it'll get removed.

Look at the warning at the top of every s@20 PBE post:

(Warning: PBE Content is tentative and subject to change - what you see below may not reflect what eventually gets pushed to live servers at the end of the cycle! Manage your expectations accordingly.)

It Hertz When IPAug 24, 201630 votes

To be fair to the OP, Riot has let a LOT of terrible balance decisions through the PBE, which seems to be more a testing ground for bugs than for gameplay balance. Most of the changes from PBE that were reverted IN PBE were ones that turned out to be massively OP or ones that weren't intended to be there.

Hinagiku33Aug 24, 20165 votes

THIS

Also, Riot has explicitly stated that the PBE is strictly to check for bugs to make sure they don't crash the servers when the patch goes live. They do internal play-testing on every change before it ever hits PBE, so for some reason Riot's play-testers swore that these changes don't make Shen feel like complete garbage (allegedly).

Sure, they sometimes remove stuff buts that's actually pretty rare. The warning is just covering so people don't complain too much if they do remove something (like Mandrake Wards). Even a lot of bugs make it through PBE testing, despite getting reported by PBE testers, if they don't make the game unstable (hi, Azir!).

ElikainAug 24, 20161 votes

I have no idea why you are freaking out about the PBE changes. It has literally come out with Yorick and it may very well be only for testing purposes and not ready for actual release.

They have 2 weeks to iterate and see if it's an appropriate nerf or not, if he even needs one.

ShinjusukeAug 24, 20165 votes

Mostly because for everyone who DOESN'T drink the Riot-love kool-aid, the PBE obviously isn't an actual balance testing ground. The number of obviously stupid decisions that ACTUALLY don't make it out of the PBE is appallingly low.

By the time a change has hit the PBE, Riot has already decided through their internal playtesting that it's fine. The only things that really ever get reverted are larger rework changes. Anything more minor (like a tweak to damage on a champion passive) almost always makes it through just fine.

Pretending that it's crazy to act as if a PBE change is going to make it past the PBE is just plain naive.

Not to mention, even if it DIDN'T make it, they're not gonna know how people feel about it unless people speak up.

Either way, complaining about people having issues with something on the PBE is just plain stupid.

ElikainAug 24, 20161 votes

The way OP's post is worded is not sounding like an open discussion about the Shen changes but more like "wtf is Riot doing with these nerfs" that i'm seeing pop up way too much these days.

Shen's laning phase is generally safe and he has good minion management with his damage. Simply lowering that but keeping his tank fighting capabilities will make him think twice about making 2 TP plays or risking losing minions to a push or make it generally a bit harder to clean up a lane and make a TP with knowing you haven't lost much gold.

Alistar's changes that apparently everyone had an issue with (some change with his heal and Riot has said that they were testing extremes to see where it breaks) have never gone through.
Riven's Edge mechanic was never released.
There were some Eve ult changes to flat value and good AP ratio that apparently didn't go through and now, it's back to live functionality but with a lower CD.

There are a a lot of reverts going on on PBE but unfortunately, they are too small to anyone to pay heed to. Only the "big" stuff gets noticed and is always in the spotlight for "PBE this, PBE that".

MelledoneusAug 24, 20165 votes

Shen's laning phase requires him to jump on his opponent and hope they don't have CC, disengage, or more damage. Not to mention that poke screws him up hard.

9001TeemosAug 24, 20165 votes

He's strong in pro play in the current meta. That's it. Riot balances around LCS and master/challenger.

MonkeyMadnessAug 24, 201616 votes

Riot finally nerfs the %max health damage that has been become ever more oppressive, but they do it on a champ that actually needs it to function, and in no way represents an abuse case. Meanwhile, tank ekko and bruiser fizz are still pretty much reking...Nice job riot.

DracocrashAug 24, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Riot finally nerfs the %max health damage that has been become ever more oppressive, but they do it on a champ that actually needs it to function, and in no way represents an abuse case. Meanwhile, tank ekko and bruiser fizz are still pretty much reking...Nice job riot.

Pretty sure bruiser fizz is very very rare now, and barely viable.

Kempachi TaichouAug 23, 20168 votes

and they still haven't fixed his Shadow Dash...

MelledoneusAug 23, 20165 votes

They fixed the original hitbox bug, but the way they did that was by cutting the hitbox down in general...

Kempachi TaichouAug 24, 20161 votes

I've gone toe to toe and nose to nose and it still misses...

I've even played a custom with a RLF, lined up different angles against a non moving target, and the taunt is very inaccurate....

MelledoneusAug 24, 20165 votes

The hitbox doesn't match Shen's. That might be what's throwing you off.

KoKobotoAug 24, 20167 votes

It's so they don't pick him at Worlds

MrBuffingtonAug 24, 20162 votes

Shen's supposed to be played at worlds though, just like Corki, Orianna, Lee Sin, and Thresh. That's why they buffed them :3

GoatfishAug 24, 20165 votes

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BioticBronyAug 24, 201618 votes

If he needs nerfs for his tank dueling power then don't nerf his damage to minions and monsters.

GoatfishAug 24, 20161 votes

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l Helios lAug 24, 20166 votes

Shen has the shoving power of a wet sponge...that's always been his problem. Even before the rework. You could beat him just by out shoving him and forcing him to CS under tower. Pretty much also why he always has to buy item 3068 , just so he has some waveclear potential.

Zephyrous XAug 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Shen's fucking op if you don't entirely lack map awareness.

he has decent sustained damage (for a tank), and [% MAX hp dmg], which means he is strong against other tanks. With his refreshing shield, this outclasses the majority of tanks with such damage ( )...not to mention his W negating aa's (which is also a good % of tanks' damage, again furthering his superiority vs. other tanks).

Now, the real effect of Shen: He has a TP on his 3m (max cd) with a massive shield. That is already lower than the cooldown of , allowing Shen to either double up on offensive cds, or make a defensive play with little to no loss.

All this makes Shen a strong tank (also vs. tanks), while additionally being granted superior macro play (via effectively 2x TPs) vs other top laners/tanks.

So, yeah, Shen can afford to lose some power vs. other tanks. With his "macro-mobility", he shouldn't dominate and/or be immune to similarly dispositioned tanks in lane while also having the option for multiple cross-map plays.

lol shen is one of the most balanced champions in the game right now

GoatfishAug 24, 20161 votes

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Zephyrous XAug 24, 20163 votes

{quoted}

is that;s why he getting nerfed...?

lol ignorant..

love when silvers offer their "opinions"

lol you're fucking retarded. i'm saying that the nerf isn't justified dumbass... because he's balanced. Reading comprehension of an autistic first grader lmfao

love when retards attempt to formulate "ideas"

CeexSettAug 24, 20166 votes

You had a point, but you lost it with that elementary school trash talk.

WolfChasesAug 24, 20165 votes

But dude.....Championship Riven is available again, they hat to buff Riven and nerf Shen who counters her.

SlyTactician Aug 24, 20165 votes

Honestly, I was really missing support Shen as of late since his rework pretty much made it less viable than it used to be; however, these nerfs are really sad to see.

He already has trouble early game with his lack of tank stats and while he scales into a tanky monster at the late game - that's pretty much what defines him. A great tank that can effectively peel for his team as well. Just because he was a counter to Irelia in the esports scene doesn't mean that he truly needs nerfs - it already feels so awkward to play him without his ranged Q but to see an even weaker Q is just going to hurt Shen's laning phase even more.

It seems the Q damage nerfs may have been reverted, but the W shield nerfs too? Poor Shen.

PhoquelesanimauxAug 24, 20164 votes

I'm totally with you. My theory is that Riot wants to reduce the pickrate of Shen in the competitive scene BUT it makes no sense since Shen is picked for his kit only. They won't change anything about it by nerfing his damages.

Shen is not that good in soloQ :-(