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Real talk: Support mains...stop saying support is "fine"

chipndip1··1 votes·1,057 views

Because it blatantly isn't, otherwise more people would play it. Lemme put it this way to really hammer it home:

  • Stop saying we have "strong variety" when support itemization has been crammed into one niche and has been dominated by Locket since forever, even though we have a myriad of different classes played in the support role.

  • Stop saying support game play is interesting when we can't find a decent amount of the player base that has as much fun as you do mashing the shield button for 40 minutes, which we once again reinforce in the game through the negative stigma of damage dealing options in the community on top of the itemization Riot emphasizes.

  • Stop saying "Support's never going to be picked". The issue is that it's the least popular role to the point where we can't have nice things, not just that it's the least popular. We had to nix a few ideas for the game (role exclusion for example) because of just how unpopular support is.

Any time I see someone trying to discuss the subject as to why support isn't popular, some dude comes up and starts going "Man, bro, I love support. You just don't get it". No, you just don't realize how much most people aren't having your shit. First step to fixing a problem is admitting there's a problem.

To further emphasize the point, here's a link to a thread that describes the issues with the role very well.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/mK1ihLwv-riot-meddler-support-or-divers-should-be-addressed-in-next-class-update-not-tanks

42 Comments

Rivuo7 votes

Have you ever thought... Some people actually like supporting..? And there isnt really a problem...?

http://i.imgur.com/7WVIOTW.jpg[/img]

chipndip11 votes

Yeah, you, you're a part of the problem.

This isn't about the niche few that are already support players. This is about the sheer lack of support players we have to the point where it's a notable conversation point.

Stop being a problem.

SchmidttyGames3 votes

That has more to do with the mentality of the player base than the position itself. Most people like you have a need to be the hero of every game and have no desire to play second fiddle to anyone for any reason.

chipndip11 votes

No, it's a game play problem that fuels a mentality problem. Hell, it's even a mentality problem that limits progress and variety in the role, creating and sustaining a game play problem that further fuels a mentality problem.

You have no idea what I want in particular when it comes to support as a role, so before you assume, why don't you ask?

I even left the link to a post that pretty much describes my reasoning to the problem, but instead of reading it, you just assume I want to be a carry from the support position. Good on you.

SchmidttyGames1 votes

No, I read that you want to obliterate the Support Role so that it doesn't even exist anymore, which is untenable. Not everyone wants to be the hero. Not everyone is capable of carrying every game they play. Not everyone is exactly like you, nor do we want to be.

The Support Role, as it is right now, is okay. I could use more access to wards and Redemption is fairly busted, but overall, it's a role that I enjoy as it is, right now. Your feelings on the role are fairly irrelevant against the facts involved. Support Mains, largely, find the role to be in an acceptable place right now. You aren't going to convince anyone with an adversarial and condescending attitude on the matter.

Ravenhale1 votes

The link is Hiemal's post which is actually an attempt at getting Karma addressed. Hiemal's argument is mostly about Supports being "boring" to play, which is because he used to play Karma before she got reassigned to the Support role. She used to have a more interesting and interactive kit. Now she has to compete with Lulu, Sona and Janna as a shield bot, since that's the only thing her kit's numbers favor.

chipndip11 votes

Thank you for responding to this moron. Last thing I need to do is waste time responding to someone that doesn't know how to read past their own near-sighted agenda.

And that link wasn't just about Karma. It was about EVERYTHING. The itemization, the play patterns...all of it. No one's going to read a well thought out post about these things because they don't have the attention span, but it's impossible to have this discussion without a long post.

Ravenhale1 votes

Most supports are interesting during the laning phase. It's afterwards that things get stale unless you happened to pick a good engage support. Picks like Karma, Lulu, Soraka, Sona and Janna are forced into submissive playstyles because they can't do anything else without risking a throw. They don't have the damage to make picks, so they can't safely roam even with decent ward coverage.

There's a reason why my top three support picks are Leona, Morgana and Annie. This is also why I don't quite understand this Redemption Meta, since none of these three really need it.

Ravenhale1 votes

Hiemal is a bit biased since his Karma was redesigned into a Support and lost all of her unique qualities. He isn't wrong that the Shield Bot play style can be brain numbing at times (so can last hitting those creeps but that's a necessary evil, right?). It's why every now and then I'll bring out an Orianna Support simply because it's a little harder to shield effectively with the ball as compared to point/click Janna.

I disagree on his assessment with Lulu. With two of her spells having different effects based on her targets, she can be annoying to work with in a "busy" lane. I'd rather pick Karma every game than deal with game throwing misclicks. Especially considering Lulu isn't visibly stronger for her added inconvenience. And I will always pick Karma over Sona because Sona dies if a Super Minion looks at her the wrong way. That's the price she pays for her free and easy damage.

Honestly, Thresh was a very popular pick for quite some time. Not because he was strong, but because he was more interesting to play than someone like Blitzcrank. We need more "difficult" supports and there should be some advantage to pick them over the plethora of "easy" supports already available.

chipndip11 votes

I also disagree with his assessment of Karma. If anything, Karma's one of the only few supports that are in a decent spot, kit-wise. Sona, Soraka, Janna, Lulu are the four main champs I think need major overhauls in the enchanter class, especially the first two. Their game play is boring and doesn't lead itself to be appreciated by either the player or their peers.

He also talked about itemization, which is something I've been trying to get heard for a while now. Namely, itemization for every other role takes a few possible play styles and in-the-match stimuli into account, but support's basically says "Everyone is Janna, and this is what you build". Support's itemization is pretty much a flow chart. The types of supports there are is pretty varied. The types of support ITEMS isn't. If I bring it up? "Go build mid laner items".

This is why I made this thread. Support mains have this Stockholm Syndrome going on where they WANT the role to continue dwindling due to not addressing these problems.

Ravenhale1 votes

Support mains have tunnel vision in the sense that any suggestions they make only improve the game from the existing Support perspective. It doesn't draw in new support players.

I've thought it would be neat if we had a Sightstone that combined with Stinger. Basically an Attack Speed Sightstone that would make sense for Kayle and Teemo. It doesn't need to be a gold item, so you wouldn't have any silly arguments about the ADC building it.

There will always be the argument that some champions need to be easy. I'm thinking it would be fine if Sona always remained easy, since she is a Jack of all Trades. But if Soraka is supposed to be the best healer in the game, then it feels off that she would remain one of the easiest champions to play. I would welcome changes that make her more challenging and rewarding. The last changes were pretty meh. It made laning a little more fun, but the same late game issues persisted. Either you were so far ahead that Soraka was boring and not very needed or you were so far behind and the new self interactive kit made it frustrating to be effective.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Support mains have tunnel vision in the sense that any suggestions they make only improve the game from the existing Support perspective. It doesn't draw in new support players.

True, just look at this thread. It's embarrassing.

I've thought it would be neat if we had a Sightstone that combined with Stinger. Basically an Attack Speed Sightstone that would make sense for Kayle and Teemo. It doesn't need to be a gold item, so you wouldn't have any silly arguments about the ADC building it.

I like the notion of having a few AA-based support items in the game, but not based on Stinger. Maybe Sheen.

There will always be the argument that some champions need to be easy. I'm thinking it would be fine if Sona always remained easy, since she is a Jack of all Trades. But if Soraka is supposed to be the best healer in the game, then it feels off that she would remain one of the easiest champions to play. I would welcome changes that make her more challenging and rewarding. The last changes were pretty meh. It made laning a little more fun, but the same late game issues persisted. Either you were so far ahead that Soraka was boring and not very needed or you were so far behind and the new self interactive kit made it frustrating to be effective.

There's a difference between easy and toxic. Sona's kit isn't just easy. It's blatantly toxic. Why else do you think that Riot made her require SCALING as a support champ? The two ideas together don't even make sense. They could make her less toxic if she took some degree of difficulty to work with, but since she doesn't, they curb the toxicity of her kit with mitigated rewards. So you're making Sona "work" by intentionally making her less rewarding and fun to play in general. Why? This line of thinking is flawed.

Ravenhale1 votes

I said that as a Support main myself. I recognize half the ideas I think up only cater to making things better for existing support mains but would not actually encourage anybody to join the Dark Side of LoL.

A support item for Sheen would be interesting as well and might also benefit Teemo while clearly something the current Sona could abuse instead of having to jump to Lich Bane all the time (honestly not a bad item on a Support for the Sheen proc and movespeed).

I think adding Support items that broaden whom can Support should be a viable direction we can go. Naturally there will be the fear that it will push out actual Support champions, but I'm not convinced that is a justifiable fear. If you want to increase the number of people playing the fifth spot, you have to make that spot more flexible so these players don't have to pick a Tank or Heal/Shield Bot to be functional. I think more Sightstone options is the way to go, since Gold Items have a nasty habit of getting abused in Solo Lanes. AS sightstones, AD sightstones, Crit sightstones. Right now we have a Health/Gold Item Sightstone, a Regen/Gold Item Sightstone, an AP/Gold Item sightstone and the ole Ruby that is more about Active CD Reduction than anything else.

Sona's issue is conceptual. She is an Aura based champion. She would have to be repackaged entirely as some sort of Music Slinging Maestro to require skill. Existing Sona mains would cringe over their champion being entirely redone, but that's what might need to happen. None of these "push button" auras.

I just don't see that happening after they released an Ultimate Skin for her. She's a lost cause. It's smarter business sense to tackle someone like Soraka that doesn't even have an 1820 to repackage.

Ravenhale1 votes

The community makes it a problem by demanding somebody play support. Riot reinforces this problem by making Support a role in role selection.

SchmidttyGames1 votes

You act like there aren't Support Mains out here. There are, and many of us are good at what we do. Stats be damned.

Never mind that a 6 item Janna can effectively triple your health pool during a team fight. No, that's not helpful at all. Never mind that a good Karma can swing a late-game fight simply by knowing when to R-E. Forget about Vision Control, Objective Control, Wave Management, Positioning, Tactics, and Strategy. No, Support is a problem because sometimes YOU have to play it...

In every Team Based Game, there is always at least one person on every successful team that fills the thankless role of helping his teammates. This game is no exception.

Ravenhale1 votes

Uh... I have over 750 games as Support with Leona, Morgana and Soraka being in my top 5 played champions overall.

I'm perfectly fine with the role and have no issues because I am a support main. The community has issues with their queue times because they demand there to be more players like us while refusing to play the role themselves (which is fine and I think making people play the role is a step backwards for Riot).

SchmidttyGames1 votes

I don't disagree with that. I am tired of people crapping on the role in general when they have no clue what we really do out there. On one hand, with this system, I have an automatic advantage over any autofilled Support, which you can usually spot out right away (Lux, for example). They are simply biding their time, trying not to die until they can feel relevant. Meanwhile, I have their side of the map lit up like a Christmas Tree and they have no hope of moving on any objectives without my entire team noticing.

It's a thankless role. I'm good with that. But I am tired of being crapped on simply because I Support. 1/5/20 is a good line for me as long as I maintained vision control and helped the team win as much as I could.

Marshbouy2 votes

Sorry but support is never going to be picked. The only time it's going to be picked is when it is either freelo or there is an insanely OP support champion, but at that point the champion will have invaded the niche of other roles.

Support is a role in a vast number of games that no one wants to play. MMOs have this issue, Battlefield has this issue, Overwatch has this issue, and many more. Hell the only time I've seen large numbers of people willingly pick support was in planetside 2 when you could farm out XP by revive the same person 6 times. (they basically just mashed the revive gun to farm in game currency and levels)

eufleuria4 votes

Support is a role in a vast number of games that no one wants to play. MMOs have this issue, Battlefield has this issue, Overwatch has this issue, and many more. Hell the only time I've seen large numbers of people willingly pick support was in planetside 2 when you could farm out XP by revive the same person 6 times. (they basically just mashed the revive gun to farm in game currency and levels)

Literally this. Has anybody ever played other games that have different classes that involves a support class/role in one of them? In those games, the support class are one of the roles that are the least popular or least picked for the same reason that people prefer not to play them because its not their style.

SchmidttyGames1 votes

That doesn't make it a problem position. If anything, it should make the true Support Mains that you do encounter shining examples of why you shouldn't just needlessly crap on them.

chipndip11 votes

The issue people have with support in online games is that support gets regulated to being healers more than anything else. It's not that support has to be boring. It's that people don't want to break the mold on what a support class can or should do. HEALERS are boring. SUPPORT doesn't have to be.

Marshbouy1 votes

... So how else are you support to support people other than stunning, tanking, shielding, healing, peeling, debuffing, and buffing?

chipndip11 votes

Have you seen support and its itemization right now? Out of the 7 things you named, support itemization only emphasizes 2. THIS IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

And yes, damage dealing is a way one can support their team. Doesn't have to be carry-level, but it also doesn't have to be non-existent.

Marshbouy1 votes

Plenty of supports deal a lot of damage. Look at any poke mage support for example. item 3107 deals damage Stunning-obviously this is not going to be in an item because it would be insanely abusable on non supports. tanking-Literally any tank item boosts tanking. Shielding-Don't even need to cover this. healing-don't need to cover this debuffing-I'm not sure what you call "debuffing" but there are plenty of items that can do it. item 3082 item 3025 item 3401 item 3092 item 3800 buffing-Boi really. item 3504 item 3401 item 3107 item 3800 item 3050 item 3109

Abyssphere2 votes

In my experience the main problem with support is that people think there's a problem. If you get autofilled support, think "omg this is gonna suck ass support is such a dumb role!", pick Lux and start Doran's, then get destroyed because the enemy support who's actually playing the role in the optimal way is fucking you with no mercy at all, you're gonna come out of that game hating the role. If people who don't play support would actually give the role a chance, it'd be much more popular. Unfortunately people decide it won't be fun and then work very hard to make it unfun for themselves.

eufleuria1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Syndra Mechanics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EtMuOk3r,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-12-24T00:56:42.563+0000) In my experience the main problem with support is that people think there's a problem.

Legit. The only reason people are complaining about support is because Riot decided to have autofill permanently active, thus forcing people who dont play it, to play it. Thus causing people to complain about being autofilled into support and then causing people to make threads about making support more fun mainly (even if it was not said) for those who get autofilled.

Support was fine, and IS fine the way it is.

chipndip11 votes

Riot made it permanently active because support wasn't fine. What the fuck is this logic?

SnugglePuggle941 votes

No, they made it active because of meh "queue times" and what not. Support was quite fine before this stupid autofill shit.

chipndip11 votes

Support isn't fine if it's so unpopular that it causes severe queue time issues.

chipndip11 votes

The main problem is that whenever someone wants to address the problems, people come out of the woodwork to force us on this path like Stockholm Syndrome junkies. It's honestly a shame.

Incarceration2 votes

The main balance problem started from everyone complaining about how Rengar one shotted people. Then, they had the assassin rework which made noticeable assassins like Zed, and Fizz feel extremely weak. They also introduced new stealth mechanics to give more people "counterplay" to Rengar, Shaco, etc.

All with the combined Armor Penetration AD carries getting nerfs to their kit because of how broken they were, pushed 4 AD carries over the edge (Twitch, Vayne, Caitlyn, and Jhin). Then Riot decides to give supports new tools to stop damage supports like Brand and Zyra from ruling the meta while nerfing Locket because Locket was dominant for ages. 

This made assassins extremely weak, so they complain about how it's extremely hard to do their job anymore which brings up the issue "Should Supports Be More Complex and Offer a Variety of Things while Specializing in One Certain Aspect?".

I think that is what should happen and this is why I admire Thresh and Morgana supports since, in my opinion, they take a lot of skill to make huge plays and have something of everything.  

What I think is the proper solution to this problem would be is to:
  - have assassins either have good waveclear or some aoe to make them useful in teamfights, or better assassination depending on how "bursty" they are. 
  - have a support class update **extremely** soon to make the supports harder and specialize in one certain aspect like Thresh and how he specializes in making great picks. 
  - Make the support items have instantaneous effects while reducing their power if the assassins will have better assassination potential.
  - Reduce Exhaust's power.
Ravenhale1 votes

Mob mentality. If enough people say something is broken, it must be broken... regardless of the facts.

eufleuria1 votes

Ever thought about it isn't everyone's play style when it comes to playing support ? Maybe people dont like sitting in the back throwing heals and shields. Or even poking down the enemy just for someone else to claim the kill because the support is to suppose to set up the kills (which i dont have a problem with). Maybe people in fact like being right in the face of the enemy and trying to destroy them. Maybe people prefer to be in a solo lane than a duo lane? You guys cant force people to like something simply because it doesnt suit their style lol

Its like asking, how can we make country music more popular or like-able for other people to listen to like they do with rap, edm, rock ? You cant because it isnt their cup of tea. You can try to tweak it and throw some hip hop, a melody or some beats into to it, but its not gonna change anything. Because again, it isn't their thing.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Ever thought about it isn't everyone's play style when it comes to playing support ?

That's a lazy cop out.

Maybe people dont like sitting in the back throwing heals and shields. Or even poking down the enemy just for someone else to claim the kill because the support is to suppose to set up the kills. Maybe people in fact like being right in the face of the enemy and trying to destroy them. Maybe people prefer to be in a solo lane than a duo lane? You guys cant force people to like something simply because it doesnt suit their style lol

You should have read that link before typing.

Risk of Fate1 votes

I think the role could be better, but for now I think it's alright the way it is. They heal, they shield, they the front line beefy and the back line alive. The problem isn't the role itself, but the expectations and problems surrounding the role.

Sona Nami Soraka are healbots, nothing more Leona Taric Alistar are the stunbots, nothing more Janna Braum Karma are the shieldbots, nothing more Thresh Blitzcrank Lux are at least the most interesting ones that can set up plays.

Yes I know Alistar's a playmaker, but I often see them kind of go in annnnd nobody follow up.

A lot of the champions in the role are very binary in nature, often relying on their single target heal, shield, buff, multiman stun, etc. Their base damage is not enough to get on the charts, they're force to take item 2049 which a slot waste for the most part (yes I know vision is important, but still, it's an 800g mandatory item and people complain you don't take it. Hell be damned if you tell your ADC to build item 3123 when laning against a Soraka or Sona).

In addition, the Tanky supports are afraid to engage because most of the time teams will often run away. If you build damage, you're constantly harassed, you get hassled for taking some farm under tower when it's pushed in and you're apparently expected to have 0 second cooldowns. I know people give me that stupid question mark when I toss a heal and, hey you know what? It's an 8 second cooldown which means bye because chances are it's not going to be enough of a heal to tank the three fed carries murdering you.

We get two new items: item 3107 item 3109 yay, we can actually shield our teammates from the Brand ult. Guess what? OMG, poor assassins can't kill the squishy, Supports suck................

To top it off, four man ganks bot lane, what is a support with no damage supposed to do? I've saved plenty of Carries, but now it's like "Will this one live or not?" because every time we've gotten ganked, they blew EVERYTHING for the kill even when we had vision and see them coming. Three flashes, exhaust, heal, ignite, even a smite under tower only to return later for the enemy jungler to come from the backside. At level 4/5, I can't be expected to pull a miracle and save you when we're about halfway in the lane and that happens.

Breaku1 votes

Hi! Support main here!

I'm loving support right now! I picked it up last season and probably won't go back for sure.

Calabok1 votes

Support > Country Music (but not by much)

ZephyrDrake1 votes

SUPPORT IS FINE! sorry to say this but the only way for supports to be "fun" for the vast majority of the playerbase is to pretty much kill what a support is supposed to do and just make them become another boring ass damage dealing class that has some amount of utility. Supports as a whole is fine, itemization is garbage for mage supports but that can be easily fixed by adding some actual items that do something more than have %heal/shield increases

chipndip11 votes

Alright, that's a start.

Now how do you suggest we convince these people with their heads in the sand that this should be done? That is why I'm making this thread.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Alright, that's a start.

Now how do you suggest we convince these people with their heads in the sand that this should be done? That is why I'm making this thread.

no the reason you are making this thread is because you want support to become something it's not supposed to be. Support is a playstyle choice, not everyone is willing to be the backbone of the team. Not everyone is willing to sacrifice anything for the team. Not everyone is willing to take a backseat and not be on the spotlight. Pretty much what most people want is to deal a crap ton of damage or be pretty much immune to everything or a combination of both.

If you really want to make supports be more "enjoyable" without destroying what they actually represent then you can always start by adding things like how many wards someone placed and/or killed at the end of the game. Fixing the experience issue would also be great since supports are always the lowest lvl players in the game even when their team is stupidly ahead, in which case they might out level the enemy support and possibly the enemy ADC but that's about it. Supports right now need better items, and by better i mean items that don't push everyone to do the exact same thing over and over to the point that it really doesn't matter what support you pick since it's the items that matter. Items should be complementing the supports kits but right now with the way items are? it's the champions that are complementing what the items do

Kilanost1 votes

3 solo lanes and a double jungle. new meta

Elisheva1 votes

Coming from a jg/top main. Support is fine. It's just a role that takes a certain mentality to play, it isn't fun for the vast majority of people to do all the work, then not take the kill or get bitched at by a lower lifeform.

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