Whenever Graves is strong, he immediately becomes overbearing.

ChickenWrap·Feb 25, 2017·92 votes·5,885 views

Even with the recent mastery changes and lethality nerfs, Graves is just incredibly overbearing to play against.

He:

Is Tanky
Is Ranged
Is An assassin
Can deny vision
Executes you from across the map
Has some of the best jungle clears in the entire game
Has an escape or gapcloser

Now, separated, none of these things are necessarily terrible, but put together on one champion, they're just incredibly ridiculous. Due to the nature of Graves' entire kit, whenever he is strong, he becomes immediate pick/ban tier simply because of how much he molds games around him.

I'm not saying Graves needs another rework, but maybe his identity of being a tanky ranged assassin should be looked at... At least Quinn can be killed without too much hassle. Graves on the other hand? Not so much.

77 Comments

LankPantsFeb 25, 201735 votes

Graves should just lose his knockback VS creeps and his Armour and MR should be nerfed significantly if not outright removed.

These are the things that make Graves utterly unbalancable.

Ariel the CruelFeb 25, 20175 votes

his Armour and MR should be nerfed significantly if not outright removed.

I'd rather see his overall range nerfed. Thematically, graves a ranged bruiser (As opposed to Riot's claim as a near melee marksman). He 's supposed to be getting close and shot-gunning people in the face. To survive at that range, he needs some level of durability.

I'd rather see them reinforce the face-blasting concept, then remove the durability and force graves away from the front line.

IcyPepperFeb 25, 20177 votes

then remove

I think you meant "than."

edit: I'm not trying to be an asshole or anything....

ParcevalFeb 25, 20171 votes

Than is used for comparison.

A building is larger than a peanut.

A centimeter is shorter than a mile.

I'd rather be friendly, than a grammar nazi.

It is better to show, than to tell.

Leona OPFeb 25, 20172 votes

it do not matter, we understood what he was saying, the very english language was created from a bastardization of others and its natural for people to develop new dialect or slang in their given languages every day

also were all going to die one day, so...

ParcevalFeb 25, 20171 votes

I was being clever....

You're right, it doesn't matter, and languages and dialects are constantly evolving.

IcyPepperFeb 26, 20171 votes

I'd rather see his overall range nerfed. Thematically, graves a ranged bruiser (As opposed to Riot's claim as a near melee marksman). He 's supposed to be getting close and shot-gunning people in the face. To survive at that range, he needs some level of durability.

I'd rather see them reinforce the face-blasting concept, then remove the durability and force graves away from the front line.

I... think I was correct. It didn't have to be such a huge deal tbh, but I was correct in my usage unless it makes sense to assume someone wants an ADC's range reduced and have durability to reinforce a face-shooting fantasy... and then remove the durability and force the ADC away from the frontline.

I bolded the parts just in case. I don't think I was incorrect here.

DarkSunSovereignFeb 25, 20179 votes

[deleted]

IcyPepperFeb 26, 20173 votes

I don't understand why you're correcting me...

I'd rather see his overall range nerfed. Thematically, graves a ranged bruiser (As opposed to Riot's claim as a near melee marksman). He 's supposed to be getting close and shot-gunning people in the face. To survive at that range, he needs some level of durability.

and then

I'd rather see them reinforce the face-blasting concept, then remove the durability and force graves away from the front line.

So... if we're using "then," which you said "AFTER X," then we have...

I'd rather see them reinforce the face-blasting concept, and AFTER THAT remove the durability and force graves away from the front line.

Er... that doesn't make sense give the first quote.

but

I'd rather see them reinforce the face-blasting concept COMPARED TO remov[ing] the durability and force graves away from the front line.

Now, after ranting at me and making me think I was wrong until I reread the post I was answering with, it turns out I was correct and people just upvoted you on some bandwagon.

So, er, you kind of messed up here. I think you owe me an apology... unless nerfing an ADC's front range and needing some durability is solved by removing durability and forcing the ADC away from the front line.

Kind of irks me that upon closer examination your rant gets so many upvotes... when, well, my thought process wasn't so flawed after all :/ You probably won't respond, though, but even I do that sometimes... Hopefully you won't be like that one guy and completely ignore me, and pretend I said one thing no matter how many times I quote myself and use multiple alt accounts to upvote yourself. I've seen that shit happen, it's kind of stupid.

However, to be a cheeky bastard

HOW DO PEOPLE STILL MESS THIS UP

Now you know why. People make mistakes, including you.

\rant reversal

DarkSunSovereignFeb 26, 20173 votes

Fuck. This is why I shouldn't be browsing the Boards late at night.

On the other hand, this also shows how the Boards community will upvote almost anything that either has lots of caps or is hating on Yasuo/Lee Sin/etc.

Let's just forget this all happened.

IcyPepperFeb 26, 20172 votes

And people keep upvoting you and downvoting me.

Am I just some hated dude on the board? I didn't think I was coming across as an asshole, at first it was just a simple (oh hey dude, you used the wrong word here) and then I defended myself against an abrupt rant that got uber upvotes despite, well, being wrong :/

Am I the next Drunken Yasuo or something? (heehee)

Still, I appreciate it, dude. I hope there's no hard feelings, your reaction was an understandable one ESPECIALLY if I had corrected someone's grammar... incorrectly. Besides, I browse too late too, it happens all the time.

My Waifu VanillaFeb 26, 20171 votes

Agreed. The ult range is.....whatever, but his auto range does need to be toned down a bit. Yeah max ranged autos do "less" damage but more often than not I still end up dying to them because of how much damage he does to begin with. Honestly, they should drop his overall auto range by another 100 and MAKE him have to get into shotgun range, if that means lowering E CD or whatever that's fine (by increasing reduction per auto and not the base cd itself) since he is at least in retaliation range of almost all melees.

HeroquetFeb 26, 20171 votes

The 1800 units aoe ult range is what i hate most about him. I can't remember how many times a Graves nabbed a kill on a low life target just by ulting after being late, very late, to a fight.

Could be perfect if the ult didn't go through walls too, like his aa. I love to use turrets as a shield against him. Or tanks.

But yeah, 425 aa range is already quite ranged too.

Velzard of KozFeb 25, 20177 votes

I feel like they made his basic attacks powerful because they are supposed to be "limited" while they are really not THAT limited (Jhin really looks like having much more limitations).

ModAcademy KaynFeb 25, 20178 votes

Having less/equal range than Urgot as an ADC isn't limited? CC the fucker once and he dies, he doesn't get his Resistances right away, and he still has to ramp those resistances up over a fight anyways.

CasterGilgameshFeb 25, 20172 votes

you need to take your logic somewhere else gameplay isn't the section for it.Nice name you play overwatch btw?i love playing mercy and bastion.

Velzard of KozFeb 25, 20173 votes

Yeah, that's actually true, most ranged champs (artilleries, high-range Marksmen) shouldn't have problem against that. However I can imagine what pain he is for melees (when you combine the attacks with the dash).

ModAcademy KaynFeb 25, 20173 votes

Most Melee's either have CC, or build Tankier with actual tank items, as opposed to semi-offense/defense items that Graves likes to build. If Graves wants to do his full amount of burst, he has to be in your melee range to do so, else he's doing less than an actual auto from far away. There's plenty of things to do against him, and he only gets more damage when he acts as a Melee champ, despite being Ranged.

Nameless VoiceFeb 25, 20177 votes

I think that a ranged-DPS jungler doesn't really work as a concept.

Let me explain my thinking:

Almost all junglers are melee. They have an inherent disadvantage over ranged champions. Now, of course, the same is true of laners, but the dynamics of a lane are somewhat different. Melee laners generally don't take (much) damage from the lane itself (e.g. minions), even if they are open to ranged harass and can be zoned by their enemies. Meanwhile, a jungler is going to be taking damage in their jungle. Many junglers, especially the weaker ones, will often be at fairly low health levels during their first few clears.

That's why invading the other jungler can work - if you can arrive when they are weakened, or have their abilities on cooldown, you can fight them when you have an advantage. However, the invaded jungler can still fight back and often win, especially if they saw you coming.

The problem comes in when the invading jungler is ranged. The melee jungler usually doesn't have the tools to deal with a ranged attacker, especially at early levels, so the ranged jungler can just kite them to death very easily. Again, lane matchups are slightly different because minion aggro is very important at giving melee laners some indirect protection from harassment, which is lacking in the jungle.

When that ranged champion is also quite good at winning duels even if the melee manages to close the gap, then it starts to become really unfair. Add in a dash to allow them to escape if the enemy team close in on them, and you end up with a powerful champion who can easily deny the opposing jungler and completely ruin their day, while also scaling to be useful in the late game.

Kindred also had this problem to some extent when they were strong, though in their case it was mostly that their ult made them too hard to kill during invades post-level 6.

BlåbæretFeb 25, 20175 votes

He needs to become squishy. The fact that he can delete you in 1 second and being impossible to kill item 3812 is ridiculous!

BisaknospFeb 25, 20175 votes

i want his ult nerfed tbh its way too strong and punish more for not getting AS items so he wont be able to build as much ad/tanky stats

ModAcademy KaynFeb 25, 20171 votes

They already did that, and it quelled people's complaints until now, when Lethality has become an issue.

RozzetaFeb 25, 20175 votes

He's "CertainlyT"oo strong

Cosmic WarperFeb 25, 20174 votes

I still don't understand why a champion that is DESIGNED to be a close range champion has an ultimate with such high range and AoE...

AhristocatsFeb 25, 20173 votes

he was fine before lethality

ChickenWrapFeb 25, 20178 votes

He was fine before the lethality patches but he wasn't good. Before that though, if you remember, he was OP.

AhristocatsFeb 25, 20177 votes

he wasn't good? i saw multiple graves playing the game in the jungle in high elo, some did fine, some did not

in what name he wasn't fine before, he did exact the same thing than now except with less overbearing damage his smokescreen still countered few champions his late game was still as good as an adc because he built crit instead of lethality

GhostInTheShellFeb 26, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EtKwAXz1,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-25T11:04:14.946+0000)

he wasn't good? i saw multiple graves playing the game in the jungle in high elo, some did fine, some did not

in what name he wasn't fine before, he did exact the same thing than now except with less overbearing damage his smokescreen still countered few champions his late game was still as good as an adc because he built crit instead of lethality

not sure what you mean by high elo (Plat+ or D1-Challenger?), but:

https://na.op.gg/champion/graves/statistics/jungle

shows that Graves was weak before the Lethality changes. Lethality changes made certain champions go from being shit to being strong. Zed is another champ that comes to mind.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 26, 20171 votes

he speak of D1-M1

skyskee008Feb 25, 20175 votes

He was OP back when he had retarded base damage and his E gave armour/mr way easier. They nerfed him pretty hard.

Remember, all he brings to the table is damage, his smokescreen isn't that great CC. So he's a hard champion to balance because all he brings is damage. You remove his damage he becomes COMPLETELY worthless.

Also he has to get into very close range to auto attack (majority of his damage, still). If they remove his innate tankiness he can't do shit either.

He actually is in a pretty good spot right now. He's strong and can definitely CONTROL a game because of his 1v1 potential, but he can't just smash the enemy team face-first like let's say riven

Faceroll TacticsFeb 25, 20171 votes

After the changes to masteries and black cleaver, riven builds glass cannon lethality and dies like a mosquito if targeted or builds the black cleaver route and doesn't do enough damage to burst anyone in reasonable time.

An Undead bratFeb 25, 20171 votes

According to your name, you know what you are talking about.

Faceroll TacticsFeb 26, 20171 votes

Indeed.

HelmightFeb 25, 20173 votes

Graves DOES need another rework. He can't have such a short range without his tank stats, but unless Riot also nerf his damage, he's going to have too much going for him. Either they need to embrace his marksman identity and drastically reduce his tankiness (unlikely), or acknowledge that he is no longer a marksman and reduce his damage to compensate. Balancing him as a skirmisher instead of a marksman is a position that I'm personally a fan of.

MannnyFeb 25, 20172 votes

That happens with every champion lol. If they are strong they are most likely overbearing.

GigglesOFeb 25, 20172 votes

I tried to complain about him a few weeks ago... I was down voted into oblivion.

ChickenWrapFeb 25, 20174 votes

Gameplay does that if you don't complain right. It's a little dumb.

GigglesOFeb 25, 20171 votes

I just asked why no one was talking about how strong graves was in jungle. I didn't know if there was some op counter or something.

On a side note I've been complaining about morde balance too...

As much as people complain about Morde being strong, there are lots of ways you can actually outplay him, like cc, sustain, kiting. There is no real counter to things like graves popping out and instantly killing you.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 26, 20171 votes

I just asked why no one was talking about how strong graves was in jungle.

simply cause LeeSin Khazix Rengar

Piltovers KingFeb 26, 20172 votes

GRAVES NEEDS A OLD REWORK BRING THE OLD GRAVES BACK AND GIVE HIM HIS CIGAR

JackMcSnipeyzFeb 26, 20172 votes

Hmmm, So literally nothing changed about Graves and he was medicore pick after his last nerfs to tankines and damage. Suddenly lethality changes break every AD champ and Graves is a "problem" i sure wish i knew what went wrong.

He's only tanky if he's in your face, he doesnt "execute from across the map" where are you even pulling that shit from? Using his E to escape means he squishy, using his E to engage means his in your face, and i dont care how you try to say it, Graves is still squishy with barely any tanky items.

As for his jungle clears, just get rid of his knockback to monsters, I couldn't give any less shit about jungle Graves, dont gut his damage/durebility because you're too stupid to get in his face.

PanduhsssFeb 26, 20172 votes

Thank you dude! Finally someone gets it, Graves has not been talked about or picked up until the lethality buffs and now everyone wants to complain about it because theyre losing to it. Idk how any can complain about Graves when Jayce exists at the moment.

JoseraphFeb 26, 20172 votes

Can we please wait until after EoN gets nerfed to hop on the "nerf X AD champion" train? Riot already is nerfing Lethality, lets not get them to nerf a champion when its the build that's the problem

MunchCrunchLunchFeb 26, 20171 votes

the way to fix graves is to make his autos do more damage max range. but way less damage melee range

13900 EssenceFeb 26, 20171 votes

The problem with that is that wouldn't make any sense considering he has a shotgun. Even if it had slugs it'd still fall off with range.

MunchCrunchLunchFeb 26, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Titanium Legs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EtKwAXz1,comment-id=00180000,timestamp=2017-02-26T04:23:40.374+0000)

The problem with that is that wouldn't make any sense considering he has a shotgun. Even if it had slugs it'd still fall off with range.

but the thing that you don't understand i didn't say that melee range should do less damage than max range. I don't think graves should be doing like 300-400 damage per auto mid game to a 200 armor tank

DunkinNoobsFeb 26, 20171 votes

You mean that Graves, the ranged assassin bruiser is an overbearing design? Who woulda thought.

PanduhsssFeb 26, 20171 votes

I've pretty much only played Graves for the last 2 seasons and up until this lethality buff I havent heard about Graves at all nor did I ever see him get played. Lethality is broken and they havent nerfed it at all except for Yommus which you dont need to build on Graves when you can go Edge of Night or Duskblade. I bet after lethality nerfs you will see a lot less because he hasnt felt too strong to play up until recently. Graves also has quite a few drawbacks. His early game isnt the best, especially when compared to Kha, Lee, Rengo. These champs can all one shot you in the early mid game. Also he is a farming jungler so its hard to apply pressure on the map against early game junglers. Yall should be complaining about Jayce or Talon. I can be 2 levels up and an item over these champs as Graves and die instantly to them.

WargigaFeb 26, 20171 votes

Graves is in a good spot he doesent need a nerf. Edge of the night will be nerfed in 7.5, Youmus got already nerfed + all the assasin masterys. If you nerf graves he just becomes garbage again Like in 7.1 patch. All what you need to do is to buy ninjatabi vs assasins and they are legit useless cuz tanks > all. 12% AA dmg reduction from boots is just a joke. Current issues in league are the tanks that build ninjatabi + sunfire and become simply unkillable and dealing massive damage also tanks are not hard to play. So I hope riot comunity is not full of low MMR players and riot wont change graves.