Is it just me or is Black Cleaver too universal of an item (built on Adc's, bruisers, assassins..)

Malicious Metal··61 votes·3,974 views

I think it's Rylais all over again. An item that's intended for a certain class (in Rylais case; Ap bruisers and battlemages, BC: bruisers) and maybe a situational item on other champions being built frequently on other champions. Leading to the item being extremely prevalent in a lot of games and seen on champions who shouldn't be building it without giving up other intended strengths.

Exhibit one Lucian https://s17.postimg.org/4qwccpa6n/lucian.jpg¨

Lucian is regarded as the primary ability based marksman. He's a spellslinger and he used to go for Trinity force a while back. As an adc he does scale well with crit as well but now a new Build's popping up. item 3153 item 3071 Giving him unrivaled kiting and durability due to the 400 Hp on BC as well as pretty damn insane damage while building an item that's intended for sustained damage bruisers.

Exhibit two Ashe https://s10.postimg.org/tt73kclmh/ashe.jpg

Meant as a linear scaling ADC due to how she interacts with Crit Ashe has fallen out of the spotlight. Only for a new build to overcome these issues in her kit. With BC and Runaans Ashe can shred entire teams, negating huge amounts of gold value while still outputting a ton of damage, making you feel like a bloody pin cushion at times.

Exhibit three Miss Fortune SUPPORT https://s24.postimg.org/u61r5ve9h/image.jpg

Same old deal, just with BC MF can output a ton of damage, even with a lowly support income and the nature of her ultimate

Exhibit four Graves https://s21.postimg.org/v7y2q7wfb/graves.jpg

He's kinda supposed to fill the niche of a more durable marksman so I hesitate to call this an abuse case


Personally I feel Black cleaver is one of those items that just has to have a reduced effect for Ranged character, just like the Phage passive on it. It's supposed to offer a way for Bruisers to not get kited too easily while allowing them to output their damage. Yet it is built on a class that uses it to Kite those the item is supposed to help their kiting issues while also giving them a lot of damage. There's not really a trade off to be had and I really think the item should either be Melee only or the armor shred component needs to be made a self-buff.

just my two cents on the matter

111 Comments

Big Lincoln20 votes

graves is an abuse case, he can full stack Cleaver off one AA and hit you with the rest of his burst. it's bullshit

and yes, cleaver is too generally strong, not just for ranged champs

Melledoneus24 votes

Playing Graves to begin with is an abuse case.

Blåbæret2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Et5Jwjyt,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-03-23T01:23:26.141+0000)

graves is an abuse case, he can full stack Cleaver off one AA and hit you with the rest of his burst. it's bullshit

and yes, cleaver is too generally strong, not just for ranged champs

Lucian is also an item abuser. Black Cleaver should be made melee only and changed a bit thereafter.

Orangesilk5 votes

"Melee Only" item 3070 Urgot item 3070

FalconPawwwwnch11 votes

It is

The total armor shred is broken and is a remnant of old LW

Needs to be made into something else that only champs like darius/illaoi etc would like

Ahristocats4 votes

and not fiora or jayce

But it's k according to board it's not a problem if an item is core on 100% of AD champs

Gregor Gysi2 votes

I feel like it's just BS in the hands of ranged champions as they don't need to commit in order to proc it. When it comes to Fiora it just makes sense, I don't think Fiora is an abuse case, it's more about her being annoying in general.

Big Lincoln1 votes

what would you replace it with though

the only thing I can think of is some manner of ramping % damage increase over time to favor juggernaut tendency to stay in long fights, but Illaoi doesn't want long fights anyway

or some special passive that activates after being in combat long enough

Sire Hippington3 votes

just that it's way easier for a ranged to be in combat for some time than for juggernauts, and juggernauts can be disengaged rather easily once they trigger a window of power. The big thing with BC for juggers is not that it enchances their own damage, but that it'S a shred and thus allows them to bring some utillity for their team in teamfights.

Skias1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Et5Jwjyt,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2017-03-23T13:39:13.287+0000)

just that it's way easier for a ranged to be in combat for some time than for juggernauts, and juggernauts can be disengaged rather easily once they trigger a window of power. The big thing with BC for juggers is not that it enchances their own damage, but that it'S a shred and thus allows them to bring some utillity for their team in teamfights.

They deal the highest DPS in the game. They don't need to bring more utility when its fucking Ashe.

Big Lincoln3 votes

he's talking about juggernauts not marksmen

Skias2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Et5Jwjyt,comment-id=00060001000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-23T14:43:18.836+0000)

he's talking about juggernauts not marksmen

Well marksmen and assassins are using it too.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo7 votes

well that is why riot changed its build path and items

Häßlich3 votes

They actually reduced its AD and upped the HP so that ranged would find it less appealing, but certain champs will always place high value on the debuff.

Skias2 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Et5Jwjyt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-23T01:14:56.402+0000)

well that is why riot changed its build path and items

Which did nothing, because who cares about a 100 HP and 10ad difference when it gives movement speed, ad HP and armor shred for the entire team. It could give 800 HP and 20ad, they would still build it.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo7 votes

it really only syngerizes with certain adcs and their kits. not all. you dont see a cait, trist, vayne jihn building it

you see mf who uses it with her ult, ashe with her Q and hurricane, lucian with his ult. kalista maybe. so i mean its really not abused by all ranged champs.

its mainly built on ad bruiser/casters like garen, riven, ren, darius.

Skias3 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Et5Jwjyt,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-23T14:14:01.444+0000)

it really only syngerizes with certain adcs and their kits. not all. you dont see a cait, trist, vayne jihn building it

you see mf who uses it with her ult, ashe with her Q and hurricane, lucian with his ult. kalista maybe. so i mean its really not abused by all ranged champs.

its mainly built on ad bruiser/casters like garen, riven, ren, darius.

I've seen Trist build it and Vayne doesn't need it because of her ult and true silver. Its not a great arguement when 2 out of 10 ADCs don't build it.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo4 votes

jihn , ezearl ,graves, vayne, cait, thats is more then 2 right there

and just cuz trist built it dont mean its good for her and her kit...

so that is just a stupid argument

the only adcs it benefits would be ashe with q and hurricane, luc, mf, kindred , maybe kalista, corki in certain situations , maybe varus if you go for hurricane , bc, bt, build and wanna rely on autos i mean hell i can get triforce on maokai dont mean its ideal and really benefits what he needs

oSEXYPLATYPUSo5 votes

btw downvoting does nothing to the conversation at hand. you wanna debate and have the conversation then so be it but downvoting dont make you any more right.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Et5Jwjyt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-23T01:14:56.402+0000)

well that is why riot changed its build path and items

Reduce 10 ad and get health instead? Most ADC's like that change actually.....

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

not reallly considering unless it synergizes with their kits or abilities there are better items for the adc to out put damage

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Et5Jwjyt,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2017-03-23T14:23:01.126+0000)

not reallly considering unless it synergizes with their kits or abilities there are better items for the adc to out put damage

As proven by Ashe recently when she goes Blade-ruunan-Cleaver all you need is the ability to stack it quickly, and preferably use ruunan.

Ashe is just godlike because her Q instantly max stacks TBC stacks on a target with a single Q buffed auto, and 2 others around them.

But the stats and all passives are good for anyone who can use it. Mobility and armor shredding, tell me one AD that doesn't like those?

Any diver and nearly all skirmishers can use it, along with all the AD assassins and a few adc's, and now people are expanding, because the item is goddam powerful.

30% flat armor reduction is insanely powerful when dealing with anything, it's not like Last whisper that only deals with bonus armor. It shredds through base armor as well.

100 armor from base and some runes? Cleaver+ lethality and now you have like 20-30 left. This is a core for the AD assassins altho lethality as a whole has taken nerfs.

So yep, and and all AD characters that can build it and use it will do it 100%. It's the Rylai situation all over again.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

no it isnt rylai all over again... black clever has been in the state it was for a while.. til riot changed its build paths/items

ashe is the one of the few adcs that can do that and use it... most cant.

and its meant to be an item for fighters.... hence the cdr/armor pen/ ad /hp aspect of it.

but as long as they dont get multiple stacks on you its not 30% armor pen. its conditional... ryalis wasnt any spell could slow regardless , it didnt need stacks or anything else

and it gave 100ap not 50 like black cleaver does with ad. and it gave 500 hp black cleaver only gave 300 hp... and black cleaver still cost more then rylais soo you pay a good amount for the item so if you have to pay the gold to get you should get something for it.

the issue is... the community cries over everything... it was lethality then they nerfed that... cut the balls off of varus where he isnt worth picking any more... and people/pros started building ninja tabs to counter lethality due to the armor, damage reduction and cost now people cry that those are unfair...

now we are crying black cleaver is unfair. if you dont want to have 30 % of your armor reduced dont stand around to get 6 stacks on you..

ya know if its a garen who is using E to spin and get the stacks you get away from his spin dont ya?

and 30% of armor dont ignore all armor... lets say you are lvl 18 typical mage who runs 9 armor runes. gets zhonyas which gives 45 armor and you have your scaling armor (lux for example) who has 87 armor at lvl 18 would have a total of 141 armor and lets say she happens to be stupid and let someone get 6 stacks of black cleaver on her reducing her armor by 30% which is 42 armor would leave her with 99 effective armor...

but lux has range, her shield, a binding and a slow , burst ... so she should never be in a situation that it gets 6 stacks

now what if you are melee champ who stacks armor /tank like maokai who when i play him build item 3025 item 3068 item 3047 at least concerning armor and i run +13 armor from runes and his scaling armor lvl 18 97(only 10 more then lux) i would have a total of 110+30+65+50 for total of 255 and since im melee and slow and gonna be tank soaking damage im more likely to be hit with 6 stacks from cleaver so 255-30% = 77 so 255-77= 178 effective armor left

its meant as an item to shred champs who stack armor

so lux would lose 42 armor and mao would lose 77 a difference of 35armor or a item 1031 basically

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Cleaver shares the issue of void staff in a sense, flat pen was never a great thing.

Void staff was intended as a item to get past enemy magic resist but it happens to be extremely effective even if the opponent doesn't have that much magic resistance anyway.

Cleaver too, while shredding armor of big target it also pushes lower armor targets closer to the point of true damage, this concept being exceedingly powerful it's no wonder that anyone who can will use it. That is why any and all mages will build void staff and all AD champs that can will build the cleaver.

And then you ad health,cdr and some AD along with a movespeed buff for attacking? Like adding diamond's to a pile of gold that everyone already wanted.

....Are you seriously saying lethality wasn't OP? What rock have you been living under? You'd have to be blind to not notice that every single AD damage champ played was using it and nearly all of them very extremely dominant. In korea they had team's like Quinn top, graves jungle, Jayce mid, Jhin ADC and a tank or lulu support and they won in under 20 minutes just because they killed everything extremely fast.

Graves could literally kill a carry with a single auto-Q-R combo, and all the other users had similar and equally oppressive combo's. Champion diversity was at a bottom. That is why lethality had to be nerfed at all costs. Because if the enemy had X,Y,Z champs using lethality and you didn't then there was a literally 90% chance you'd lose if both teams were equal in skill.

Out of all the champs in league it was like 20-23 played during that time, and 15 of them used lethality. I can't really offer any better proof than that for it's what Riot used as well.

And back to cleaver.

Running from someone using Cleaver? How? They have a movespeed buff for attacking. Unless you're currently playing Jax and can jump away you won't get away. And if you do you will lose lane since you can't farm it. It's no wonder the top 3 toplaners in Korea are all using it. Or all the AD assassins, and all the ADC's that can do it.

While i will agree that the community will cry over a lot of things it's also true that when a lot of people are saying the same thing chances are it's true. Nearly everything that's gotten nerfed has had people hating on it.

And the fact that a % armor shredd removes more armor against a target with more armor is natural, but it also happens that the less armor you have the more it hurts to lose it. Because armor scales at it's hardest below 150. Closer to 0 you go the more damage you take.

As for some characters being ranged,,,,,sure lux is a mage with spells but she cant run from everything and everyone. You´d need perfect positioning and wards everywhere to accomplish that. And when facing an assassin it's 100% certain that they will gapclose at some time....and if they bring item 3139 it's life over for lux. Or it could just be diver or skirmisher flashing ontop of her or flashing and then using a gapcloser ability. I´ve had my share of experience seeing this while getting lux to lvl 6. And while i agree that lux should die less than others i also know that some are just impossible to avoid.

The issue boils down to the question if the attacking assassin or diver is currently strong, and if their items are currently strong.

If the answer is yes both times then 90% of the time you as a carry will die.

But as a melee? You´ll get shredded by the enemy Darius and dunked to oblivion, or demacia'd by Garen.

Because all those 2 need is cleaver, as long as the item is good and they are decent then they're automatically powerful. Then we have the rising star of pantheon, who.....does pretty much beat anything 1v1 pre 4 items. Because you due instantly unless you have enough armor but then you´ll lose an extended fight.

Or we could look at Kled who also kinda kills everything with just a cleaver and a hydra. And then he doesn't die because he's full on tank after those. Similar to Darius and Garen.

As a melee it's nearly impossible to beat the core users of cleaver in a 1v1, only when going against eachother does it become a question of skill but for everyone else they are allowed to tower hug and then be largely useless afterwards.

Toplane at higher lvls has often had poor lvls of diversity but when botlane is affected too it's easy to see somethings wrong, Cleaver is simply too powerful and anyone and anything that can use it will do so for it's great against everything. Rylai all over again :(

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

no its nor rylai all over again... those items are no where near the same. as i already explained

2nd is i never said lethality wasnt OP a patch ago... i stated every one cried over it... then the smart people starting running ninja tabs in their builds to counter it... (pro scene ) and people cried that ninja tabs are too strong

the armor penetration of BC is conditional... and it has to stack... its not an instant armor reduction of 30%, unlike void staff with its flat magic pen just straight up and as far as rylai , rylai had a non conditional slow for any ability that could be applied over and over with out a cd... as far as BC is concerned if and once you get to 6 stacks on it for the 30% armor reduction it dont constantly "slow you " rylai's did.. it cant do more then 30% armor pen no matter what... and as i stated its best to shred targets that stack armor... cuz it would reduce a higher amount of armor. and why spend the gold on bc when lethality items are easier to build and are just as loaded ... typically bc isnt build 1st on all champs ( a few yes, those juggernaut caster types) its usually a 3rd or 4th item build into a heavy ad /bruiser type of builds.

and to say that is broken cuz people use it would be neither here or there.. zyhonas is broken and all ranged mages get it... but no cries over that... and its one of the most popular items in game regardless of meta.

bc is no where near to the level of a problem as lethality was a patch ago... and we wouldnt have leathlity if people didnt cry about armor pen to begin with... see riot usually will let things be till the community cries for changes cuz things are unfair or unbalanced then you get the cluster fucks like lethality , rylais , stated devour etc

and bc is no where as power as it use to be during the time of the black cleaver meta where you would pick talon mid and get 5 of them with boots and one shot everything and have tons of hp and survive-ability

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Et5Jwjyt,comment-id=0000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-24T15:18:49.306+0000)

no its nor rylai all over again... those items are no where near the same. as i already explained

2nd is i never said lethality wasnt OP a patch ago... i stated every one cried over it... then the smart people starting running ninja tabs in their builds to counter it... (pro scene ) and people cried that ninja tabs are too strong

By stating that people cry over something you lend a certain condescending tone as if you disagree and look down upon those who do it. And the "Cries" as you call it here are divded between the people being oneshots and then the people failing to oneshot because their opponents got ninja tabi.

Not that something like ninja tabi saves you from darius or even kled though.

the armor penetration of BC is conditional... and it has to stack... its not an instant armor reduction of 30%, unlike void staff with its flat magic pen just straight up and as far as rylai , rylai had a non conditional slow for any ability that could be applied over and over with out a cd... as far as BC is concerned if and once you get to 6 stacks on it for the 30% armor reduction it dont constantly "slow you " rylai's did.. it cant do more then 30% armor pen no matter what... and as i stated its best to shred targets that stack armor... cuz it would reduce a higher amount of armor. and why spend the gold on bc when lethality items are easier to build and are just as loaded ... typically bc isnt build 1st on all champs ( a few yes, those juggernaut caster types) its usually a 3rd or 4th item build into a heavy ad /bruiser type of builds.

It doesn't matter that the armor shredd is conditional when it's so easy to do it, hit your enemy and they lose armor. any and all champions that can stack it fast enough will do it. And you can't escape them doing it because they are faster than you.

Rylai had the condition that you had to hit your opponent-.....sounds similar? Only issue was that the item itself was too cheap and had too high stats and a slow that was too high when paired with the other things.

And Pantheon builds BC second, Zed,talon,rengar and Graves can do it as well and usually do. Even Jayce does it.

Riven,olaf, renekton, gnar, mf, Lucian, ashe.

All these build BC as their first, second or third item. But mainly first or second.

So no, nearly all who build it does it first or second with some rare cases going for it third.

and to say that is broken cuz people use it would be neither here or there.. zyhonas is broken and all ranged mages get it... but no cries over that... and its one of the most popular items in game regardless of meta.

Mages don't always build zhonya, infact one tries to avoid it if possible because the item is kinda awful for damage. The only reason a mage would want zhonya is because they don't have any other way to survive something like a zed or a enemy combo.

bc is no where near to the level of a problem as lethality was a patch ago... and we wouldnt have leathlity if people didnt cry about armor pen to begin with... see riot usually will let things be till the community cries for changes cuz things are unfair or unbalanced then you get the cluster fucks like lethality , rylais , stated devour etc

Riot already explained plenty why flat armor pen was an issue and lethality mainly became an issue because you could stack more of it and then build armor shredd ontop for near true damage.

and bc is no where as power as it use to be during the time of the black cleaver meta where you would pick talon mid and get 5 of them with boots and one shot everything and have tons of hp and survive-ability

That kinda "meta" is something extremely rare but BC has already become a item whose usage is already extremely high. Everyone who can use it will use it similar to how Irelia and jax always go for triforce. And the fact that people are still trying to find new ways to use it outside the " core champions" has always been viewed as an issue....why would that change now? Rylai nerfed so that only those who truly viewed it as a core would use it.

BC needs a similar nerf because it's inside every single possible AD build out there with the only exceptions being a few who cant use it well for one reason or another.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes
  1. that is what majority of the boards are ... people crying and complaining over issues in the game regardless if they are legit issues or not. ninja tabs alone arent what is gonna save you from darius or not... just as black cleaver has stacks for its passive so does darius.. his bleed, to do extended drawn out fights with him typically leads you to lose regardless if he has a black cleaver or not. but you should be aware of the debuff as you play vs darius and know that if you get too many stacks it grants him bonus ad and makes his ult more deadly... also he already has armor pen in his kit... he dont have to build bc to do that... finally his ult does true damage , so ninja tabs only help by reducing damage by 12% not the armor. so you would be better off with an armor item with hp as well and if not a item 3053 which procs on taking burst damage. ( works well vs garen to... ) but this is of course if you are melee combat with a darius... most /best way to beat him is range and to kite. even if he has a black cleaver which brings me back to my point about the squishy mage in the previous comment.

  2. black cleaver dont automatically apply 30 % armor penetration. back to darius in section 1 he is melee he is slow... if you are are range KITE HIM ... if he cant get to you he cant apply the stacks... and black cleaver is therefore ineffective

  3. riven no longer gets BC 1st the build path isnt ideal for her any more, olaf ok, ren ok but i mention this already by the comment stating a few juggernaut/ad caster types do.. path talon typically go lethality 1st cuz of its early game power... and built paths over bc now ( yea they changed the components , mention this ) talon, panth , jayce typically start with item 3134 cuz its more beneficial to them over item 3067 or item 3044 rush. never see an adc rush BC it provides shit for damage in lane, no attack speed so even ashe is better getting hurricane into bork into cleaver then rushing cleaver so your statement about all these champs rushing it as a 1st item is kinda not true and even if it was, if it was the armor in the game that your enemy may get at that point isnt very high unless they are building pure tank and pure armor so the amount of armor it reduces wouldnt be as high.. there fore my statement of its best vs champs with stacked armor builds still holds true... and meaning its not gold efficient to rush 1st item in game except on those juggernaut/ad casters like a garen, darius, olaf , ren. who are slow brusiers who benefit from all aspects of the item early game.

  4. item 3157 is the 18th most popular item build in the game currently while item 3071 is 24th... http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/items/most-purchased

so if all ad champs can use bc and if its so broken ... and zhoynas isnt bought on all mages... cuz its shit as you say then why do the stats prove other wise... cuz not all ap champs get and use hourglass... such as ap bruisers and tanks but the argument is all classes of ad champs abuse black cleaver

Thefrostyviking1 votes

I wrote that most of the champs are either building it first or second with some going for it third, but to clarify the majority builds it second from what i saw. But all of them do indeed build it.

And Darius? He is nigh unbeatable for a melee unless you play Fiora with godlike reflexes, it's kinda sad :( Riot wrote something about him currently winning all melee matchups by default as long as his opponent makes the smallest of mistake, and then with an item or two he just wins regardless and because of this they nerfed him and stated that they will keep watching him. But did you notice? He isn't unbeatable until he gets items as long as you play well enough, it's only after that meaning the items are pushing him over an edge so to speak.

And sterak is.....quite a good item but somehow it doesn't seem like a lot of champions can actually use it well.

....Darius does automatially proc cleaver in a sense tho, 1 bleed and it automatically reaches max BC stacks, and because he is so fast due to the movespeed active it's often hard to kite him unless you have a very long range, short cd CC or a powerful CC. Most BC builders have this going on. And.....well nearly every user can stack it very fast except perhaps Kha6.

And in Korea there are quite a few matchups in which Riven still rushes BC, just a few less after the change, but she always builds it regardless. The one item i see commonly built before BC is Ghostblade, it's kinda similar in function but more AD and a bit more speed in the active. "And once you have that AD you can go for the sweet armor shredd "

That would be my impression of the general mindset about builds involving BC currently.

Ah it's true that no ADC builds it first, but nearly all of those who do build it does it second, kinda like the assassins, and for Ashe.....she kinda needs to build it second if the enemy team has a tank because she doesn't deal any damage at all otherwise.

As for that site....i have no way of knowing if it's true or not? When i look at Lolking instead i find that BC is the third most popular item of the month and zhonya the fifth with roughly 50 thousand players between them in terms of popularity.

http://www.lolking.net/charts/item-popularity?region=all&range=monthly&map=sr&queue=normal

And the reason nearly all mages currently use Zhonya is because you either do that or you get oneshot by a lethality user or just a AD assassin in general. Then there are a few like lissandra,ekko, kata and Diana who all need it just to survive going in. And it's always built in the Zed matchups too, because it's nearly impossible for most mages to beat a good zed without a zhonya rush or second item.

And my statement holds true, all the mages that can avoid building Zhonya will always do so, but most can either due to their kits and styles or due to matchups like Zed in which Riot has enforced that one must build Zhonya.

Meanwhile all AD champions that can build BC and use it even decently will do so as soon as humanly possible in nearly every single matchup,because the item is good in all aspects of fighting except sheer tankiness and flat AD altho it does offer some of that. And this trait of everyone using it because it's great for everything? Something old Rylai did too.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

ok so all melees lose to darius ?

as far as top lane is concerned... i main maokai... only once have i lost lane/game to a darius in recent memory and this was a while ago (preaseason if i remember correctly )and he was a diamond ranked player... and im no where near as good as diamond players. gold im ok depending on the champ/role i have held my own vs plats... but then again was i facing bad darius? or am i a really good mao ? i mean who knows but i have won against him plenty a times as maokai... be that as it may...

as far as this debate/discussion i really dont think BC is a bad as people are trying to make it be... its more of trying to make a mountain out of a small hill ... its a good item but its by far from being oppressive and broken and comparable to the next "rylais " as the topic states.

but the bigger issue that no one has mention is if we ( the community ) start crying to riot over every lil thing that might slightly be stronger then another item ( not broken , just maybe slightly favored due to meta shifts) or a champ in X role for a moment... (support mf, malz etc ) riot will make changes we know this... but it would make the game be more pigeon hold on what you can do and play where with what builds...

people want diversity in game... we are truly starting to get that with ziggs bot. mal support... adcs top. just shit every where... and people have came to the idea if it works then its fine and its not trolling or etc. but its a slippery slope .... its gonna end up you can only buy certain items for x champ in y role and so on and if you try to do something different they arent gonna let you by making it so un viable that it is consider trolling. intentionally feeding , throwing games.

but i will say this in closing... i do appreciate the conversation/debate it was nice for a change of typically how they go on the boards... it was mature, respectful and both had good arguments (regardless of we agree or not ) and from debate and conversation the community and game will be better for it

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Et5Jwjyt,comment-id=00000002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-25T04:08:35.989+0000)

ok so all melees lose to darius ?

Ah i failed to clarify, it's possible to beat him in lane, but eventually he scales so hard that he becomes unstoppable as long as he doesn't screw up too hard. This is the issue riot are looking at but have yet to deal with.

as far as top lane is concerned... i main maokai... only once have i lost lane/game to a darius in recent memory and this was a while ago (preaseason if i remember correctly )and he was a diamond ranked player... and im no where near as good as diamond players. gold im ok depending on the champ/role i have held my own vs plats... but then again was i facing bad darius? or am i a really good mao ? i mean who knows but i have won against him plenty a times as maokai... be that as it may...

I can beat a Darius in lane as well but with BC and some resistance he suddenly becomes a monster capable of winning 1v2 or even 1v3 in a number of matchups. Irelia is my third highest mastery and jax my 5th or 6th. I've won with both of them however being bulldozed just because your opponent gains 2 items feels awful.

as far as this debate/discussion i really dont think BC is a bad as people are trying to make it be... its more of trying to make a mountain out of a small hill ... its a good item but its by far from being oppressive and broken and comparable to the next "rylais " as the topic states.

It's probably not super OP, however it's effectiveness is most likely too high considering every AD wants it, for it works too well against both tanks and squishes alike. My thought is that it should be changed to be more directed at only work against armor instead of being a universal solution for nearly everything.

but the bigger issue that no one has mention is if we ( the community ) start crying to riot over every lil thing that might slightly be stronger then another item ( not broken , just maybe slightly favored due to meta shifts) or a champ in X role for a moment... (support mf, malz etc ) riot will make changes we know this... but it would make the game be more pigeon hold on what you can do and play where with what builds...

My idea of diversity is that there should be options, but if a single option dominates all others in terms of effectiveness it's only natural that diversity dies.

people want diversity in game... we are truly starting to get that with ziggs bot. mal support... adcs top. just shit every where... and people have came to the idea if it works then its fine and its not trolling or etc. but its a slippery slope .... its gonna end up you can only buy certain items for x champ in y role and so on and if you try to do something different they arent gonna let you by making it so un viable that it is consider trolling. intentionally feeding , throwing games.

Malz support is a abomination, he is played as a point and click easy kill and shutdown champ that can safely engage and win trades without issue, and he is there because his midlane effectiveness took too many nerfs so he became a budget support instead. I view this as something very sad :(

but i will say this in closing... i do appreciate the conversation/debate it was nice for a change of typically how they go on the boards... it was mature, respectful and both had good arguments (regardless of we agree or not ) and from debate and conversation the community and game will be better for it

mm civil arguments are indeed a rarity which i can appreciate and enjoy. It's been good arguing discussing with you.

YumaS2Astral6 votes

I am the only one who thinks that Blade of the Ruined King is the problem in the first two cases, not Black Cleaver?

Especially because Lucian has the double-hit from his passive to apply BotRK twice, while Ashe has extra attack speed to apply it more times. Black Cleaver shreds their armor, causing it to do more damage too.

Albuquerque4 votes

I disagree. item 3153 was weak for a majority of season 6 and it's finally in a good iteration that lets adc's spike with 1 item that gives them pretty much everything they need, kind of like an adc version of item 3165 item 3027 item 3071. IMO it's not too strong, it's just letting people see the strength of adc's that can properly itemize again.

Shadòw6 votes

Riot is currently having a meeting to discuss the situation of item 3071:

http://i.imgur.com/pD7rtJC.jpg?noredirect

ProfDrDeath5 votes

For Lucian, Graves and Ashe, the strength of Cleaver comes from the fact that they are able to apply several stacks with a single auto-attack. If Riot removed that, the item would be in a better place.

You know, like they did for J4 all the way back in S3:

V 3.9: Can no longer apply more than one stack of Armor Shred in a single basic attack.

Alternatively, allow every champion to apply as many stacks as there are instances of physical damage per auto, and balance the item around that.

Aimléss1 votes

Lucian doesn't apply it in a single basic attack though, they'd have to take it away specifically from his passive AA.

LightSword1 votes

To be honest, Lucian's ult is more the issue when it comes to him, as he can apply all of the stacks almost instantly with a level 2 or 3 ult.

Aimléss1 votes

Tbh, if they just gave it a 0.5-0.75 second CD before you can stack an additional stack this whole issue would be fixed.

LightSword1 votes

I actually really like this idea, and it nerfs all of the adc's that abuse the item.

Lil Lewd Witch4 votes

Its a very well rounded item for people who deal physical damage. Bonus AD, Bonus HP, Cooldown reduction, Armor Reduction Debuff. They could make it so it was a halfed bonus for range as far as the armor debuff goes. A few items already have a "half for ranged" or similar thing on their passives so it would be fair to lessen it being used on ADCs but keep it the same for bruisers like Renekton who have it as a core item.

bbQsauçe4 votes

[deleted]

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

not the only...but the best (other is item 3078 )

TwinkiePro3 votes

Morellos has fallen into the same spot.

Both offer good damage and High CDR, as well as good unique passives, one that shreds armor and another that returns mana on kills or assist.

General Esdeath 3 votes

Darius Fiora Garen Gnar Illaoi JarvanIV Jayce Pantheon Olaf Poppy Renekton Rengar Riven Shyvana Talon MonkeyKing

Mostro Gallo1 votes

eh, cleaver is alright on Shyvana

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

Miss Fortune and Graves are always going to abuse Black Cleaver unless it is deleted from the game just because of the way their kits are. Lucian building it isn't too weird either because of his ult and his ability to cast spells and auto attack so often. Ashe, on the other hand, makes no sense to me at all.

Toastersaot1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Et5Jwjyt,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-03-23T04:40:08.740+0000)

Miss Fortune and Graves are always going to abuse Black Cleaver unless it is deleted from the game just because of the way their kits are. Lucian building it isn't too weird either because of his ult and his ability to cast spells and auto attack so often. Ashe, on the other hand, makes no sense to me at all.

Doesn't her Q apply multiple stacks of it because of how quickly it applies damage? I dunno I just know that it seems to work on Graves and Lucian as well as Darius and Garen, maybe even better.

Albuquerque1 votes

She does. Ashe's Q applies on-hit 5 times per auto, so you get 5 of the 6 stacks immediately. It's become a popular build in Korea recently.

YumaS2Astral6 votes

Actually, each flurry will only trigger on-hit effects once per auto. If she could trigger on-hit effects by every arrow on the flurry, she would be broken.

However, The Black Cleaver procs on any physical damage dealt. It is not an on-hit effect. As such, with just one flurry, you get 5 stacks of armor reduction on the enemy.

SoyUnPrededor2 votes

Thank god this isn't the case, or else if she got a BotRK, from those first 5 8% current hp procs, you'd be brought to ~66% hp (.92^6) before resistances without even factoring in the damage of the attack itself.

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