Instead of nerfing useless shit like base damage on ult, move Lee Sins power away from his Q

Unreformed Shaco·Feb 21, 2017·91 votes·3,640 views

Currently the game is broken down into a single question.

"Did Lee Sin land Q? "

If yes, you die. If no, you live until the next time the question is asked.

The only reason his ult seemed like such a huge chunk was the 100% chance to land his Q after it.

Has anyone even noticed the damage on his E? It is like he farted in your general direction, no change to your health.

But instead of addressing the issue, I suspect Riot will just continue with their current mindset.

"We just nerfed him guys, we don't want to spend too long on one champ, especially one with a high impact in comp. When he dominates the jungle scene for another 5 years, we will come back and lower his Q damage by about 50 aswell"

77 Comments

Sire HippingtonFeb 21, 201737 votes

Or even better: Finally remove the wardhop nad balance from there. The wardhop adds power that wasn't intented for his kit, basically removeing all of the weaknesses it once had.

And the reason why his ult seemed like such a huge chunk was because 200/400/600+2.0ad IS a big chunk....

WylderthanuFeb 21, 20171 votes

You can't remove his ward. That's insane. Pretty sure the nerf was fine. And you.don't die if his q lands. His play rate went down significantly and his winrate dropped aswell.

PuttybloFeb 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You can't remove his ward. That's insane. Pretty sure the nerf was fine. And you.don't die if his q lands. His play rate went down significantly and his winrate dropped aswell.

I mean. You actually can. I don't know why Lee's the only champion in the game that can "JK" out of his gap closer. Let alone, chase you down with a spammable gap closer that's unlimited in usage while providing a shield + has highest base MS in the game while hurling %life execute gap closing Qs at you.

WylderthanuFeb 22, 20172 votes

He doesn't have the highest base movement speed, his gap closer is a skill shot meaning you can dodge it, and his "JK" should almost never be a problem and is something I've never seen anyone complain about. The champion falls off a cliff at 30 mins in, idk how you can complain about him.

PuttybloFeb 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

He doesn't have the highest base movement speed, his gap closer is a skill shot meaning you can dodge it, and his "JK" should almost never be a problem and is something I've never seen anyone complain about. The champion falls off a cliff at 30 mins in, idk how you can complain about him.

Akali Akali, Elise Elise (Spider Form), Jax Jax, Kha'Zix Kha'Zix, Lee Sin Lee Sin, Nasus Nasus, Nunu Nunu, Olaf Olaf, Shaco Shaco, Shyvana Shyvana, Talon Talon, Trundle Trundle <-- Those are the champions he can't out run out of over 100+ champs. Only about three of those see play.

His Q is hardly a skill shot considering he can root/knock up/stun/root you again with the push of a button, additionally most of his kit + item choices allows him to frankly get up into your face, slow you by a stupidly high amount, and then Q you.

As for falling off of a cliff? Most games are pretty much over right by then, so that's hardly relevant. Lethality items are weaker than crit at 30, but you don't really see crit items.

[zombie-brand-clap]

WylderthanuFeb 23, 20171 votes

Catching up to lee sin isn't a problem. He has a gap closer escape just like tons of other chanps. I don't understand why you think only those champs that you listed can catch up to him. I could list a ton of other champs that can catch him but that would take too long because there's too many.

Lee does not have a root. It's a knock back unless he hits that person into another person in which they get knocked up. This is a healthy mechanic which only happens if you are a skillful Lee player or they just happen to line or group up in which should not be happening just like you are playing against any other wombo champion except lee kick is easier to not get womboed by.

You say they get knocked up/root etc "AGAIN", but you only get knocked up once. He doesn't cc the same champion twice.

His kit only allows for an easy slow early game but when teamfighting comes around, if he ward hops into your team to slow he is taking a lot of free damage. The slow isn't huge. It's a 20% slow level 1 and max level it is 60%. The slow lasts 4 seconds but decays over the 4 seconds. That's not that big of a slow.

The only reason crit isn't optimal now is because lethality is broken. Lee sin isn't broken. Just because lee sin may be annoying to you doesn't mean he's broken. I think lee is in a very good spot currently and that's how most players that are good at the game say.

Unreformed ShacoFeb 21, 20175 votes

Ward hop or atleast a suitable replacement is necessary.

Sire HippingtonFeb 21, 201712 votes

HE works quite decent in other gamemodes that don't have wards, and he was perfectly fine in S1/2 without wardhops aswell.... Sure, if the ward hop is removed and no compensation buffs are done, he'll be gutted beyond urgot tier, But thats not my intend, as i said, remove the hop** and balance from there.**

worldHD12Feb 21, 20172 votes

Only lies.

Lee is one of the worst champions in ARAM only because he doesn't have wards to outplay the enemies .

No wardhop = RIP Insec move = LEE WOULD BE THE MOST USELESS CHAMPION IN THE GAME

NineTailedMysticFeb 21, 20176 votes

You can still insec kick people without a ward, you just need Flash.

5000000000000000Feb 21, 20171 votes

And he basically gets 2 Q's with snowball

TwinkieProFeb 21, 20172 votes

Have to agree as a Lee main. However, he is still incredibly bad in both Twisted Treeline and ARAM, but he can still actually do damage. Just... not very mobile...

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 22, 20171 votes

Don't you know that on the boards being a Lee main is terms for instant downvote. Unfortunately you may never admit to being a Lee main.

TwinkieProFeb 22, 20171 votes

I'm fine with that, I could care less whether people like me for the champ I play. I don't judge anyone for their champ choices.

I'm also allowed to have a say about my champ as I please as I understand it fairly well and know it's strong and weak points. People can brush me off as bias as much as they like, it doesn't changes the fact that I know better than them.

DracocrashFeb 22, 20172 votes

You just admitted you are a lee main on boards.

Respect + 999

worldHD12Feb 21, 20173 votes

Without wardhop the insec move will not exist anymore so lee will be totally trash and useless in competitive play and ofc no ones will play him in solo q.

A good nerf would be lower the E damage and make a higher cooldown and return to reveal invisible targets.

His W cooldown in early is rlly high and in late vs stupid broken lethality champions will be USELESS.

QQ About LeeSin but why u dont cry about stupid item 3814 item 3142 item 3147 meta ? Quinn Jhin MissFortune Graves Riven Zed MonkeyKing Pantheon Khazix JarvanIV Rengar These champions are totally BROKEN and 0 skill needed to play . Insane damage / mobility out of combat and is stupidly trash item.

Go away metaslaves and QQ about lethality. I dont even care cause i know i will get a lot of downvotes.

5000000000000000Feb 21, 20174 votes

Half the board post right now is about lethality. I think that's enough QQ about lethality tbh

Summonerrr 1Feb 21, 201713 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EstsUcn1,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-21T13:45:31.745+0000)

Or even better: Finally remove the wardhop nad balance from there. The wardhop adds power that wasn't intented for his kit, basically removeing all of the weaknesses it once had.

And the reason why his ult seemed like such a huge chunk was because 200/400/600+2.0ad IS a big chunk....

They already admitted they won't because it's too "Iconic" even though they removed it from kat.

double standard is real.

JunkοFeb 21, 201711 votes

Lee Sin uses ward hops to try to perform risky ult plays and the like (since you usually end up in the enemy team), Kat used her ward hopping to be ungankable in lane because it was an instant blink in a really short lane. She could just drop a trinket and always be safe. Sure it does give him some unneeded safety, but that's just a consequence.

Idk about you but I actually cannot imagine Lee Sin without ward hopping, just sounds kind of useless since he could only use his ult as a finisher most of the time.

Summonerrr 1Feb 21, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin uses ward hops to try to perform risky ult plays and the like (since you usually end up in the enemy team), Kat used her ward hopping to be ungankable in lane because it was an instant blink in a really short lane. She could just drop a trinket and always be safe. Sure it does give him some unneeded safety, but that's just a consequence.

Idk about you but I actually cannot imagine Lee Sin without ward hopping, just sounds kind of useless since he could only use his ult as a finisher most of the time.

I don't really care whether or not it's imagineable without ward hopping. The FACT that they've admitted to playing favorites because they refuse to let something go that wasn't intended to be a thing WITHOUT adjusting the power of his kit to be balanced around it is just petty and childish.

Jet SettFeb 22, 20172 votes

He is balanced around ward-hopping though, it allows Riot to make his Q hit minions and champs because he has a prime repositioning tool to angle it, and it allows his E to have almost no radius because he can ward hop on top of people.

You can say what you want, but if Lee couldn't ward hop he'd get something that probably even stronger to compensate since he can run out of wards to use on his own already.

SkiasFeb 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin uses ward hops to try to perform risky ult plays and the like (since you usually end up in the enemy team), Kat used her ward hopping to be ungankable in lane because it was an instant blink in a really short lane. She could just drop a trinket and always be safe. Sure it does give him some unneeded safety, but that's just a consequence.

Idk about you but I actually cannot imagine Lee Sin without ward hopping, just sounds kind of useless since he could only use his ult as a finisher most of the time.

"Risky"

Sire HippingtonFeb 22, 20173 votes

Lee also uses ward hops as a free escape, or as gapcloser in a gank so he can apply his E slow and redbuff befor takeing his chances with Q, or wardstep into ult into Q, especially over walls underneath the opposing tower. IF hsi wardstep was just for insec, fine, but it makes his ganks braindead easy if he's just somewhat competent, and gives him always an easy way out off bad situations.

Idk about you but I actually cannot imagine Lee Sin without ward hopping, just sounds kind of useless since he could only use his ult as a finisher most of the time.

I played him alot in S1/S2 back when he didn't have that, and it was quite fun. His ult, as wierd as it sounds, has actually more option than just insec or burst. You can get multiman knockups for general disruption, disengage and sometimes even engage. Q on a tank, then Ult him into his backline and follow through with the dash was the highlight play for lee befor insec bacame a thing. He has alot more survivabillity and utillity in the rest off his kit, and worked as a mobile fighter that needed to worl with his allies as saveguard points to utilize his mobillity. Also, flanks still work to get into a position for a good kick, so does flash.

Whut Thuh Feb 22, 20173 votes

i mean, the thing is that lee doesnt have an infinite amount of wards, so if he wants to ward a buff, or invade/ has already been caught out and had to wardjump then you know he cant, you need to keep track of his wards like you do summoner spells, just call it in chat so ppl know that he has warded, especially in the early game, where wards are extremely slow to regen

Whut Thuh Feb 22, 20173 votes

just think of all the times he would have to waste a summoner spell, as someone who has played lee, and played lee against people who KNOW how to play against lee, lee without ward hops would make him so bad it wouldnt even be funny.

BakedLotionFeb 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin uses ward hops to try to perform risky ult plays and the like (since you usually end up in the enemy team), Kat used her ward hopping to be ungankable in lane because it was an instant blink in a really short lane. She could just drop a trinket and always be safe. Sure it does give him some unneeded safety, but that's just a consequence.

Idk about you but I actually cannot imagine Lee Sin without ward hopping, just sounds kind of useless since he could only use his ult as a finisher most of the time.

flash? I'm pretty sure riot didn't design him to have him be a kick into your team-machine.. They designed him to have utility (peel) while providing good damage.

Sraeg2013Feb 21, 20173 votes

If that means him getting compensated like Katarina did... I'd rather they don't remove the ward hop.

TwinkieProFeb 21, 20171 votes

Your number is incorrect. It isn't a 2.0 AD but a BONUS AD, meaning without building any, he only does the base damage.

Sire HippingtonFeb 22, 20173 votes

I'm fully aware that it's bonus ad only. Bonus ad is the norm, so you don't extra mention it, but rather specify total ad scaleings. Anyway, those damage numbers are still pretty huge, and lee usually gets 2-3 ad items anyway.

AtanchanFeb 21, 20173 votes

I don't really understand how it's "not intended." It's been in for how long now? At that point, the whole "not intended" logic is flat-out incorrect, considering it's pretty clear that even if it wasn't intended when they first released him, they've retroactively made it intended.

Sire HippingtonFeb 22, 20173 votes

Not intendet because back when lee was designed and then released, wardsteps were not a thing. And later when they became possible, they were not as nig of a deal because they had huge opportunity costs, 75g per ward and one inventory slot with no stats at all. But ever since sightstone, lee became absurd becuase the frequent wardsteps broke his kit, and in return he got tonsoff nerfs, like getting his AS slow removed, or getting his W armor s#boost removed, and generally getting most numbers reduced...

The only reason why they kept it is because when it comes to lee, they actually fear the community backlash. They even had it removed on PBE at one point befor the lee mains got mad and they pulled it back. And that they choose to keep it doesn't change a thing about it breaking his kit by covering weaknesses that were intendet in his origiinal desing. Even now after all the nerfs, his kit can still be called overloaded, and that all was balanced out by him beeing gated in some way. But with wardhops, that gateing ceases to exist.

AtanchanFeb 22, 20174 votes

"original design" is irrelevant. Especially with Riot - need I point out all the reworks that have changed the champions pretty fundamentally?

Also, this all reads like wardhopping was a very, very recent tech, that was only just now popularized. But all of those nerfs that intend to balance him? They were all made with wardhopping in mind. Not to mention, it's likely not just the community keeping it on Lee - even if they likely wish they could knock him down a peg without getting skinned alive, it's pretty obviously that Riot themselves love how flashy and skillful he can be. I really can't see wardhopping being removed without just flat-out giving Lee another way to accomplish exactly the same thing ... which would mostly likely free up an item slot and end up being more of a buff than anything.

Besides, wardhopping is entirely a mobility thing, which even without it Lee doesn't exactly struggle with. It doesn't exactly remove a weakness, moreso just makes a strength stronger.

HateDaddyFeb 21, 201711 votes

Yep, agreed. Lee doesn't actually need significant nerfs, that would just make him trash. He needs a prettt big power shift from Q to the rest of his kit.

LankPantsFeb 22, 20174 votes

Making Lee Sin trash for a while wouldn't be the worst thing ever though. He's a champ who's been absurdly dominant for a long time, if any champ's ever deserved some "time out of the spotlight" it's Lee Sin.

Sraeg2013Feb 21, 20175 votes

It is like he farted in your general direction

Based on the sound, animation and visuals... Seems about right.

LùmenFeb 21, 20174 votes

Gap closers are too obnoxious to deal with, the % missing hp damage is disgusting and if it's not enough he will just kick you into his team instead. He deserves the Katarina treatment. No more ward hops, instead of it he should be able to mark spots\enemies in a similar way to Kat's daggers and hop there with a respective delay so that instead of brainlessly jumping around he'd have to play it properly just like Kat.

Sraeg2013Feb 21, 20171 votes

The "Katarina treatment" made Katarina utter cancer when played by an experienced player.

I don't want them to remove ward hop from Lee's W. Not because "gutted" or "muh main", or "muh insec", or whatever, but because with Riot's philosophy it would made him infinitely times more obnoxious than he already is.

Unless they'd JUST remove the wall hop and give him nothing in return like they did with not giving the shield, if he doesn't dash to a champion.

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 22, 20173 votes

You say that as if any champion is not utter cancer when played by someone experienced.

Sraeg2013Feb 22, 20171 votes

Not every champion can do a 1v5 penta against remotely decent enemies.

DuskDaUmbreonFeb 22, 20172 votes

Right. There's Soraka . She's unable to do that. And…uhm…no, that's it. Every other champion in game, if controlled by a skilled enough player, can get a penta. Even against at least semi-competent players. The only reason Raka can't is because she just doesn't have the DPS to get a penta.

Sraeg2013Feb 22, 20171 votes

Right. There's . She's unable to do that. The only reason Raka can't is because she just doesn't have the DPS to get a penta.

http://media.boreme.com/post_media/2009/banana-gun.jpg

And…uhm…no, that's it. Every other champion in game, if controlled by a skilled enough player, can get a penta. Even against at least semi-competent players.

Especially when a 200HP Katarina bursts down 3 full HP champions within a second. Without using the ult. Yup, seen that one happen.

DuskDaUmbreonFeb 22, 20171 votes

Hmm. Good point, with that picture. But I can't imagine that that clip would last long.

Anyways…

I've seen crap like that happen, too. Mostly because everybody freaks out, and nobody simply uses CC on Kat. Ahri makes Kat her b****, because she deletes Kat AND CCs her. Kat's one of the squishiest champs in the game, so all you have to do is hit her twice and she's dead.

All champions have weaknesses, all of them have strengths. The best summoners use their champion's strength to hit the enemies' weaknesses, while covering up his/her/apache's own champion's weaknesses.

(Actually, fun fact: In that situation, Soraka could kill Kat easily: A rank-5 E would do most, if not all of that damage, and stop her from jumping around. Landing a Q (or even an auto!) afterwards would finish off Kat!)

Sraeg2013Feb 22, 20171 votes

Sadly barely anybody has targetted CC left and skillshot-based CC is nearly useless on Katarina, when she can blink 3 times without any kind of cooldown later in the game.

Not to mention that blinking also deals ~800 around Katarina.

LùmenFeb 22, 20172 votes

But I can agree with this treatment as long as he doesn't become TOO strong, his strength in it is crystal clear (counterplay factor) and that people can avoid it if they play it right and the Lee actually has to be good to properly manipulate this strength. It's been a lot of time since I've seen an actual good Lee, they just easily secure kills because they kick you so they don't have to use their brain to hit the Q. Nothing takes skill in that

Sraeg2013Feb 22, 20171 votes

I'm actually surprised about the RQQ combo.

Point blank QRQ is the braindead one. You'd need to aim in the opposite direction to miss.

JoeMGFeb 21, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Currently the game is broken down into a single question.

"Did Lee Sin land Q? "

If yes, you die. If no, you live until the next time the question is asked."

Right?? I hate when he hits his Q in the middle of a teamfight, flys in and oneshots you and then ward-hops off into the distance before my team has any time to cc or damage him!