Boards›Gameplay

Stealth and Developers

Unreformed Shaco·2/4/2018, 12:57:14 AM·17 votes·961 views

Why is considered toxic and unhealthy to come out of stealth once and attack (Old Eve, Rengar, Shaco) but perfectly healthy for champions to do it multiple times per fight? (Vayne/Akali/Kha'zix)

At least with the first category, once they are out they are out. They lose all the perks of stealth, and since their kits rely on stealth, they become naked.

Meanwhile we have Vayne, who virtually has the ability to toggle her stealth on and off as she sees fit.

Get jumped? Cool, quick mash of RQ and I'm untargetable to any Non AOE. Gained some space? Boom, big damages cause IE/Statikk so healthy, and while I am at it let me heal back all the damage you just dealt. Assailant caught up to me cause I can't kite? Back in to the safety of stealth. Gained more space? Back out to attack and heal up any extra damage.

There's no downside. Every other stealth type has to pick their time wisely because once it is down, there is no retreat. All or nothing.

But nope, Vayne stealth style is super healthy. At least Akali is restricted to her dome, you know roughly where she is going to be in it. Vayne can just walk around wherever the fuck she pleases, charging up her shiv or fleeing. You can't tell until she comes back out, ready to rape you with another 1k auto.

Imagine if they changed Shaco Q to a 2 second cooldown. Imagine the outcry. Vayne is exactly the fucking same.

18 Comments

Dead flag blues2/4/2018, 1:03:26 AM9 votes

They should just add some form of counterplay for the stealth-ranged ones. Stealth is a mechanic used only by assassins in games, and those 2 champions (Vayne Twitch ) benefit from it even if they're not supposed to be assassins (first one being a tank shredder, second one being well just an ADC). Kha'zix one is part of his identity, same for Akali, and both are pretty unique.

Why don't they add a small visual effect, the same as the one when a stealthed champion is being cc'd / slowed, for ranged champions but almost "permanently" (every 0.5seconds for instance ?). Or for Twitch, as someone mentionned it in another thread a few weeks ago, adding an "odor" (same effect as his W when you're being hit) when he's around, and maybe a vocal caption.

I still think that stealth on ranged champions is extremely unfair.

Steel Blossom2/4/2018, 6:09:17 AM4 votes

The thing for re-stealthing assassins is that they usually don't have an actual "full combo". Like, Zed Talon MonkeyKing can both get pretty fuckn wild when they have their ults, but Akali Khazix are sort of stuck with their basic bitch combos all the time. Like, as a Talon, when I'm in range, my WQ-R midair-auto combo takes about half a second to pull off, and it's almost impossible to flash out of it once I start my Q. On Kha, though with or without my ult, I'm going to have to stay significantly longer in a fight, continuously running INTO enemy fire to do my job. If we ain't got the multiple stealths, then we'll just get cucked ten times out of ten.

On the other hand, Vayne is a very unique case. She's never really diving the way assassins are diving; in fact, she's usually being dove, with all her team around her ready like a family huddled around a toddler. She has one tenth the risk of an assassin, almost the same burst when crit builds are strong, and the top 5 strongest DPS in the game, no matter the meta. Ever since I started joined this game back in S3, I've always wondered about why exactly she was allowed to be played in this game like she was an OK champion. Like, you could say "hur dur dur weak early game", but then she's SUPPOSED to be bullied early on. Her kit is a scaling hypercarry that does not lose strength to the passage of time, whereas assassins with weak early games like Akali Kassadin and old Talon are meant to start a crushing snowball between their first powerspike and their eventual decline. In fact, like Vayne, I feel that all self-peeling ADCs are pretty bullshit, because what's the point of being an assassin and countering an ADC, if they can just trade CDs with you and get away when you catch them out alone? They should die the moment they make their mistake.

Jungle Lux God2/4/2018, 7:09:14 AM4 votes

The problem was that those champions who come out of stealth once and attack were also either doing massive amounts of burst or were hard CC'ing you and killing you before the CC was over. In addition, those champions also had stealth for an extremely long duration, while the champions you mention as being able to use their stealth over and over were can't stealth for very long (Akali being the exception, but she also can't move very far while stealthed).

DuskDaUmbreon2/4/2018, 2:57:20 PM4 votes

Because of the inherent kits.

The ones that drop in and out of it? They don't have the ability to one-shot unless you're a Kog'maw, or they're seriously ahead. Akali isn't going to kill you in a single rotation, unless she's 5 kills up and has Gunblade and Lich Bane. Vayne's stealth lasts for a second at a time. Or less. It's not a "Run in invisible, from across half the map, appear behind you with 0 warning, and nuke you". At best, Vayne's only gonna be able to appear from an unwarded bush. And, again, she can't single-combo you unless you're a Kog'maw, seriously behind, or she's seriously ahead. Kha'Zix? His stealth is a very short duration (I think 2 seconds?), and generally he's not able to kill you in a single rotation. He is now, but that's more a state of the game than of the champion.

The ones that drop in and out are also either very short duration or bound to a single area. Akali's stealth is in one zone. She's like an electron: You know her general position, and you're certain she's in there somewhere, but you're not certain where in it she is. Vayne's lasts for one second. Kha'Zix's lasts for what I believe is 2 seconds, and is his ultimate anyways.

Now, let's look at the others you mentioned:

Old Evelynn: Permastealth (camo) from level 1. Problematic because you had to buy pink wards or control wards at the beginning of the game. Mid didn't get to buy any potions, support only got one, because they'd die if they didn't buy the ward as a first item. She could also nuke from stealth. Fixed by locking her camo behind level 6.

Rengar: Able to one-shot from stealth. Stealths with ultimate. Ultimate also gives passive leap. Stealth lasts several (10+, I believe) seconds. Was highly problematic, as he would leap from a bush (insane range on that shit), nuke an ADC, and ult out, untouchably. Fixed by...well...only partially fixed, but was done by changing it from invisibility to camo.

Shaco: Q is a flash+Invisibility. Lasts 5+ seconds. Possibility of one-shot, but should be able to kill without re-stealthing, because of W. Also has clone. Fixed by: Not actually fixed. He was just nerfed and kinda just...left there. His kit itself is problematic.

If Shaco's Q was reduced to 2 seconds, you know why it'd be broken? Because he has higher instant damage, and because his Q is a fucking flash. It's the same range as ones a blink, and turns you fucking invisible, while also giving bonus damage. The only drawback to it? It costs mana.

Hashihime2/4/2018, 2:21:56 PM2 votes

Because Shaco has an inbuild Flash and can Move during is Q. Akali can't (oh and please spare me with this 100 unit dash)

Blåbæret2/4/2018, 6:22:27 PM2 votes

Stealth isn't healthy in any competitive game. That is to say it shouldn't exist in a game that takes itself seriously.

DrugsForRobots2/5/2018, 9:08:36 AM1 votes

So... this is actually a really important piece of a conversation that needs to happen (talking about the role and implementation of stealth in League) but you are going about it the wrong way - you'll never get a Rioter response with your tone, or even the significant upvotes necessary to get their attention.

But... to address your grievance: what those characters (Vayne, Kha'Zix, Akali) are doing is not, in essence, stealth. It is only invisibility. The terms are not synonymous or interchangeable.

The problem the developers (the Rioters) have is that their definition of stealth is irrevocably flawed and as a result their methodology regarding stealth gameplay has been haphazard and piecemeal. Until they make changes that are in accord with the actual definition of stealth, they will continue to run into problems with certain champions and League as a whole.

Stealth has one definition, and that definition is consistent even when stealth appears in League, despite Riot's erroneous use of the word:

Cautious and surreptitious action or movement; the quality or characteristic of being furtive or covert.

Stealth and invisibility are not synonymous or interchangeable. I can't stress this enough. You can be invisible without being stealthy, although invisibility is usually a prerequisite for stealth. Camouflage, in League, is invisibility with proximity as a parameter. Camouflage, IRL, is not a type of 'stealth' but something that can enable stealth.

Stealth is not a mechanic (a mechanic being the player-input via button presses.) League's code renders our champions invisible to the enemy, but stealth is something that we, as the player, must actively and consciously engage in, via our avatar (mine is Shaco). It is a mindset or playstyle i.e. behavior.

The word 'stealth' is derived from the word 'steal', which you can check in the dictionary, has this as one of the definitions:

To move, convey, or introduce secretly; to accomplish in a concealed or unobserved manner.

Almost every game that we call a 'stealth game' operates with this definition of stealth in mind. In fact, the term 'stealthed' does not exist in any dictionary, as it is a recent development brought on by a few very specific games, notably World of Warcraft. In WoW the Rogue ability 'Stealth' was just invisibility because the game's systems did not really support actual stealth gameplay, but the term 'stealthed' was shorthand for invisibility (fewer syllables). And tens of millions of people played WoW, and the term spread, and some of those players were future Rioters, and like an infection, it spread further, as now League's players use the word.

And we can witness the effect this erroneous use of language has had on the community:

Akali Is So Hot said: Eve could be stealthed forever. DuskDaUmbreon said: Rengar: Stealths with ultimate. Jungle Lux God said: Those champions also had stealth for an extremely long duration. Steel Blossom said: The thing for re-stealthing assassins... Dead Flag Blues said: I still think that stealth on ranged champions is extremely unfair.

Outside of the gaming community, no one has ever spoken of stealth in this fashion. You can use stealth, be stealthy, or behave stealthily. You can modify some words, e.g. stealth-bomber, which signifies the word as a characteristic of that thing but 'stealthed' and 'stealthing' are not real words.

I don't mean to rant, but I think this is important. Riot needs to create an ecosystem of items and mechanics and elements suitable for stealth gameplay, otherwise the stealth-champions will prove problematic in some way. I could go on, but I'm tired.

Cavemantero2/4/2018, 6:33:42 PM1 votes

I permaban Vayne. Too much mobility with the practically untargetable factor of her ultimate makes her simply too dangerous in lane and in team fights for any player that is decent with her. Also because of the nature of being an ADC she is able to gundown towers at ease (especially now) after winning teamfights. Twitch does the same other than the easy disengage/re-engage ultimate but he wins team fights faster with his ult popping out of stealth. I'd permaban him if not for the existence of Vayne when I play ADC.

I'm not against stealth, I just find that on ADCs its almost an instawin button nowadays because towers are garbage and damage is out through the roof.

PhantomPrankster2/4/2018, 6:37:23 PM1 votes

because two of those characters are ADCs and one of them are technically trash

Akali is SO HOT2/4/2018, 6:48:44 PM1 votes

Akali is allowed to go in and out of stealth mutliple times because she is confined to a small space that she cannot move and is susceptible to AoE. Khazix needs to go in and out of stealth to keep procing his passive and to try and get around all of the peel so he can kill carries. His stealth doesn't last very long so he gets multiple uses out of it as a tradeoff. It's also attached to his ult. Vayne is basically the same thing as Khazix. Vayne is still pretty bullshit tho, but that's just my opinion.

Eve could be stealthed forever and walk right over wards and go right behind you to get your flash or kill you. None of the first 3 you mentioned have the luxury that she has to do this. Rengar can start his from halfway across the map and get to you while being stealthed the whole time which is similar to Eve. Shaco gets a blink at the beginning and is not restricted to a small area like the others are.

Having stealth that is closed off to a small proximity is much healthier than stealth that lasts for a long ass time that allows for the user to have free reign over half the map. Not to mention that the ones that have the long ass stealth times with free reign are usually champions that can one shot whereas the other stealth users can't unless they are far ahead.

Drugoth2/4/2018, 7:37:51 PM1 votes

...but perfectly healthy for champions to do it multiple times per fight? (Vayne/Akali/Kha'zix)...

You missed Twitch, he gets a reset on his Q for kills and assists.

ShiniXII2/4/2018, 11:14:28 PM1 votes

[deleted]