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What do you hope to achieve with Vayne changes?

Unreformed Shaco··56 votes·3,062 views

She still rushes IE/Statik. She still two shots out of stealth.

The cancerous build only started after the change to Q, and then amplified by the fact she can't be touched during her ult.

I can't understand why you stop stealth champs like Shaco (A champ almost purely designed for out of stealth damage) having huge opening combos "cause op no counterplay", but a ranged version (designed for sustained %Max HP true damage) who can re-enter stealth repeatedly is perfectly okay? I'm getting that right? Cool.

EDIT: I'm aware the Q crit change was reverted, but the initial implementation of it is what brought the IE/SS rush into the spotlight. Then came the stealth change and only after all of that was the crit removed. The problem wasn't the Tumble damage critting for 60, it was the combination of a champion able to enter and exit stealth as she pleases with very high burst due to itemization. Her current playstyle is more like any Assassin apart from maybe Zed, except for the huge part where she is ranged and deals high sustained damage that can't be counterbuilt because true damage max health.

Pick a fucking theme. Either high burst or tank shredder. I think I speak for the entire community when I say the combination of both is not healthy.

62 Comments

Sujiren23 votes

Pretty much. When rengar one shots out of stealth its toxic, when Twitch does it, its okay.

Unreformed Shaco9 votes

[{quoted}](name=2 Lazy 2 Type,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AgVbryXQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-16T15:39:00.435+0000)

Pretty much. When rengar one shots out of stealth its toxic, when Twitch does it, its okay.

Its cause Meddler is trash tier support and likes to get carried by his ADCs. Instead of blaming himself when he failed to peel, he just nerfs said champ.

He REALLY needs to be replaced.

Ahris2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Unreformed Shaco,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AgVbryXQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-10-16T16:09:56.402+0000)

Its cause Meddler is trash tier support and likes to get carried by his ADCs. Instead of blaming himself when he failed to peel, he just nerfs said champ.

He REALLY needs to be replaced.

The factthat mages are almost always nerfed makes sense.

Raven Redeemed9 votes

Mages are almost always top teir. Their itemization is just unsatisfactory, partially due to the fact that cdr and utility has replaced flat AP imo.

The Great Divide2 votes

Yeah, Mages will usually always have a place because of a need for AP damage and the utility they bring. But I will agree as a mage player, that they feel worse than they have in the past. I loved when 800 AP was a thing that was achievable in most games. Where you were able to opt into CDR builds, heavy AP builds, or heavy CDR builds.

Now it's all 500-600 AP and maxing out on CDR, which both have made it harder to burst targets down (maintaining a threat the ADC always has to be wary of) while simultaneously being less punishing if you screw up/less fun.

I do agree people need to stop saying mages are weak - their kits will always keep them viable. Their itemization has just gotten sad.

Raven Redeemed3 votes

Yeah, I do miss when mages were a huge burst threat. I think they were saying that they are going to take another pass on AP items next season so hopefully that will address some of the item pain points. They also said it can be hard to balance when mages just huge power spikes from raw AP items so I wonder what they will do with items.

SpecterVonBaren30 votes

Dude. Of all Rioter's it's Meddler that you try to take a dump on?

DuskDaUmbreon16 votes

At least he didn't try to blame Tantram, or someone else from a completely unrelated department...

Moonfall Saber5 votes

Let's get rid of certainlyt. This guy ruined the game all by himself. The guy made yasuo zyra darius and zed all of which are were completely op on release and had to get tuned down and even now are overloaded. Look at how many nerfs zyra went though Holy Shit.

Knoyle8 votes

But wasn't he also responsible for the Warwick rework?

Daunt5 votes

Probably gonna get downvoted to hell for this but WW is literally overloaded as well.

Knoyle4 votes

How so? Nothing about him seems overbearing save some 1v1 situations in which case he does have dueling tools built in.

Daunt2 votes

Too many tools for dueling while also being great in team fights. Annoying and frustrating to play against since he's gonna fly around if you ever get low on hp. Both AS and MS steroids with damage reduction, fear and built in lifesteal? How exactly are you suppose to ever beat him in a 1v1? As for team fights, you won't ever kill him with all the healing he does while soaking up so much damage with E and fearing you afterwards. Never in my life have i played vs a WW that did poorly unless he was just a really bad player in general.

The rework was cool and it's fun to play him but that doesn't mean he's not overloaded and annoying to deal with.

Dextix LT6 votes

1 good thing, does not negate 99 shit things.

SpecterVonBaren8 votes

Not sure if you're joking or not but CT didn't design Zed, he did make Kalista though.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

Samizul was the main designer but it's decently documented that CertainlyT had his hand in it at the end, apparently because Sam went on honeymoon https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2lcj9p/certainlyt_i_really_really_really_like_your/clu8mi4

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Source.

General Esdeath 2 votes

Click the reddit picture

ZedUsanGovos1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moonfall Saber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AgVbryXQ,comment-id=00000000000300000000,timestamp=2017-10-16T18:13:47.411+0000)

Let's get rid of certainlyt. This guy ruined the game all by himself. The guy made yasuo zyra darius and zed all of which are were completely op on release and had to get tuned down and even now are overloaded. Look at how many nerfs zyra went though Holy Shit.

He didn't make Zed. And Zed is not overloaded. He's in a decent spot right now. Try again.

Unreformed Shaco1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Genesis Xer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AgVbryXQ,comment-id=000000000003000000000003,timestamp=2017-10-17T15:24:35.242+0000)

He didn't make Zed. And Zed is not overloaded. He's in a decent spot right now. Try again.

I'd say compared to the rest of the Assassin line-up, hes overloaded. By no means am I asking for a nerf to him. I think he is what all assassins should be like in terms of damage/mobility.

But they aren't sadly.

General Esdeath 1 votes

I blame Phreak REEEEE

SkeltzAlukard2 votes

{quoted}

Dude. Of all Rioter's it's Meddler that you try to take a dump on?

Fearless. Whenever i made a thread how Vayne is an obnoxious champion due to her kit allowing her to ALWAYS come back in the game and not get outdueled even if 0/9 , that thread got downvoted by silver and bronze Vayne onetricks because having an ADC with self-peel, situational hard CC, tank & squishy burst, stealth and random +30 movement speed buffs while being slippery as hell is "okay" but having a melee champ with the doubled crit chance is unhealthly and should be removed. qq

LegioSanctum1 votes

{quoted}

Fearless. Whenever i made a thread how Vayne is an obnoxious champion due to her kit allowing her to ALWAYS come back in the game and not get outdueled even if 0/9 , that thread got downvoted by silver and bronze Vayne onetricks because having an ADC with self-peel, situational hard CC, tank & squishy burst, stealth and random +30 movement speed buffs while being slippery as hell is "okay" but having a melee champ with the doubled crit chance is unhealthly and should be removed. qq

You forgot about the free BF sword during her ult...yep, she also gets bonus AD

BabyNaix5 votes

Well vayne is more or less balanced. Shaco is a nerf to ground until vgu kind of champion

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

I wouldn't call a champ like vayne with 52% average winrate in diamond balanced. Considering she is supposed to need "a lot of skill". 22% pickrate btw. I guess those are all mains. As only mains play twitch. Also only janna mains played janna to her average 60% winrate.

GrievousFetus4 votes

What do you hope to achieve with the Vayne changes

Nerfing her without having to explicitly calling it a nerf so Vayne players don't get as mad.

DeadUnborn2 votes

I have had a level 14 vayne melt through me as a rek sai, only having to burn heal and E to peel me away. Mind you I had tabi, bramble vest and deadmans plate. Thing is true damage doesn't give a crap about that

BabyNaix1 votes

maybe you should have camped her early

DeadUnborn1 votes

I did, hence why I was level 17/18 and she 14 XD

Daunt7 votes

Mmmm you must've done something really stupid to die to an ADC that was 3-4 levels behind.

DeadUnborn2 votes

1v1 me vs vayne (I'm Rek Sai): I E in, she E's me back, I flash in knowing she doesn't have flash, knock her up and get 1 auto off, as soon as she land she heals and kites, actives ult, waits for me to approach and tumbles out of the way. She has bork so she is healing from the summoner and autos so I can't use my ult to execute her even tho I did half hear health during the knock up. I realize I can't kill her so I start walking away but she uses her bork active to slow me down and kill me

I would think I could have beat her given I was 4 level above her and she wasn't near tower or teammates, but the only correct play for me was to never fight her 1v1 until her heal was down, even though I had 4 levels and an Item and a half on her

Stand in my X1 votes

Theres your mistake, you ran away. You cannot run from vayne. If you had continued to at least try to fight her you may have been able to kill her.

DeadUnborn1 votes

No, she would have used bork still and kited while killing me

Starcraft243ver1 votes

You try to kill an anti-melee adc as a tank. What else ?

DeadUnborn1 votes

Rek Sai is not a tank, she is a diver and I had 2 damage items on her (BC and Titanic)

I had 3-4 level on her (she was 14 and I was 17-18)

Evil Yasuo2 votes

It's the same for all assassins. "We're slowing assassins burst speeds down so people can react to it". Well what about mages like veigar and literally every adc that can kill you in .000001 seconds? "Nah we just don't want assassins doing it"

Starcraft243ver1 votes

Veigar has 3 skillshots, low range, no mobility and a finisher. How about not getting hit ?

The Last Ballad1 votes

So you avoid his skills all game, yet if he farms enough(or, you know, starts going for your teammates who most likely will not dodge his skills) he still will be capable of pressing r and killing you(eventually, though the time is shortened by every kill he gets off your team). Because it's a point-n-click high damage nuke, which can't be dodged.(Yes, it only does full damage when you are low on life. You try not ever being below 90% during an entire game. It isn't going to happen.)

Its fun to be that Vigar, not so much being against it.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

which can't be dodged.

Except with Zonia, and quite a few abilities, night edge as well ? Also being at 90% health is still very good, and it's shield meta and lifesteal meta, so adcs are always full hp.

Veigar ult does full damages at 33% hp. Normal damages at 66%

I'm sorry but if I wanted to pick a mage nuker as an example I wouldnt picked syndra, veigar is way too unreliable.

Hayaishi22 votes

Vayne has been like this for a very long time. Every time Vayne is relevant she is 2-3 shotting squishies, something definitely has to change.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

We could start to give her counterplay tho. Because right now she has none. Being higher ranged and "cc this thing" is not sufficient counterplay btw.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Vayne and Kog were supposed to be the anti-tank ADCs...

LegioSanctum1 votes

{quoted}

Vayne and Kog were supposed to be the anti-tank ADCs...

Then why is Vayne also an anti-assassin and an anti-support and an anti-adc and an anti-fighter?

Husha Seus1 votes

I mean cancerous as it seems if you just focus on the champion during teamfights then yeah you'll win

Unreformed Shaco4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Husha Seus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AgVbryXQ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-10-16T22:46:55.161+0000)

I mean cancerous as it seems if you just focus on the champion during teamfights then yeah you'll win

Focus the invisibile champ able to self peel and reposition at will.

The problem is as soon as anybody jumps her, she will R-Q and move away, giving her team ample time to jump whatever squishy decided to hit her.

We also then have the major problem that Statikk Shiv (waveclear AS/Crit item) does more damage than Duskblade, an item specifically designed for high opening burst.

It's hardly fair when someone like Shaco building like an Assassin Q's in to her, attacks her for maybe 500-600 damage and then she disappears for 1 second gaining 400 distance, hits him once for 700+ and heals 300+ from it. By the time he closes that 400 range, she has re-entered stealth.

Bank of Veggie1 votes

The cancerous build only started after the change to Q, and then amplified by the fact she can't be touched during her ult.

You mean the one that was effectively reverted by making her Q bonus damage unable to crit?

Vayne has always been able to burst you with IE and Shiv, but you didn't complain about it any other season did you?

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

The entire Q AA should be unable to crit, not just the bonus damage.

Sire Hippington1 votes

I think the changes went into the right direction, but there are two big issues that cause her to fail: Her ult still giving lots of AD that works great into crit burst, and adc itemisation that allows for way to much upfront burst without even giving up much for it. Though her Q offering decent burst on it's own doesn't seem all that great on a champ that should resolve around dps and her W procs aswell.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

Honestly making IE and Zeal Items mutually exclusive for all champions is the only thing that really needs to happen.

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