Do you like the visionless lategame?

AquariusGine··9 votes·731 views

I'm not sure what to feel about this. We win some games even though we were behind the whole game, because somebody walked into a bush by mistake. And some games, we lose because the same thing happened to us.

I could list reasons why this isn't fair.. but I could also list reasons why it is.

What I do know is I don't like it. Why suddenly stop the vision game? So games won't drag on? It may shorten LCS games but I don't think the rest of the playerbase enjoys it very much.

Would be nice to be able to buy vision wards lategame :/

28 Comments

Starcraft243ver10 votes

because somebody walked into a bush by mistake.

Stop doing that.

AquariusGine1 votes

{quoted}

Stop doing that.

This doesn't answer the question.

Teridax681 votes

It does, because the crux of your argument lies on the fact that entire games will swing around completely because the wrong player decided to facecheck the brush. You may not have access to Control Wards with a full inventory, but you do have a free trinket, and a Sightstone if you're a support, and if you're a squishy player, you should have access to either the Yellow Trinket (or Sightstone), which should at least allow you to check some bushes ahead of time, or the Blue Trinket, which should let you do the same from a much safer distance. I agree that there's a discrepancy between early and late vision that I think shouldn't exist (though I personally favor getting rid of Control Wards), but the core problem of the "visionless lategame" you're talking about is poor decision-making from certain players and team disorganization, not vision itself.

Melledoneus1 votes

Tell that to my teammates in ranked.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

Tell them, I can't MP people if i'm not in their game.

Troll for Trump7 votes

You can't. You're inevitably going to have to walk into an unwarded bush eventually. They might just happen to have their whole team there. Sometimes there's only one person and you just happen to be able to kill them.

You can make predictions, but there is no certainty.

One of the most common ones is, you walking through bushes to place a ward on/near an objective, and then getting ambushed. If you ward the bushes on the path to the objective, the objective won't be warded at all. The wards will all be concentrated in one area, making them especially prone to sweepers.

Every nonsupport won't have trinkets up 24/7, and will have to facecheck.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

You can't. You're inevitably going to have to walk into an unwarded bush eventually. They might just happen to have their whole team there. Sometimes there's only one person and you just happen to be able to kill them.

No, definitly. And u can/should communicate with ur team to ask them to ward if yours is on cd.

Starcraft243ver3 votes

You can land a skillshot in the bush, use the blue trinket, watch on the minimap how many ennemies you see.

If you do not have any skillshots available and you are squishy, maybe you should just never facecheck a bush. It's not your role. Go hug your teammates.

Troll for Trump2 votes

You can't just stay grouped 24/7 because you miss out on cs gold

Starcraft243ver1 votes

CS are on lane, not in bushes.

Also the syndrom of the "adc farming alone near the destroyed t1 botlane when there's a rengar on the enemy team" is also something to get rid of.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Usually you want cs from one lane, and then it gets taken by either the mage or ADC, so whoever else wants cs has to move somewhere else, usually through the jgl.

Often, the other lanes are pushed enough so if you go there, it's risky and prone to ganking. If you don't go, you can't do anything; you aren't getting gold, or kills, so it's a waste of time.

You don't farm that deep for no reason; you need the cs to catch up, and that's why you need to ward those areas. With limited vision, wards are either spread too far apart or too concentrated.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

Often, the other lanes are pushed enough so if you go there, it's risky and prone to ganking. If you don't go, you can't do anything; you aren't getting gold, or kills, so it's a waste of time. You don't farm that deep for no reason; you need the cs to catch up, and that's why you need to ward those areas.

Worst mindset ever. You are already behind, if you get caugh up in an even fight they have the advantage. You surely dont want to be spread out farming deep.

If one of more lane are pushed toward the enemy's base :

You either want to take some risks and 4 or 5 man gank a lane where you see 1 or 2 opponents defending, trying to take a tower. As soon as you see an opponent show up at the other side of the map. Or you want to use the fact you are behind in level so the lanes naturally pushes toward you (your minions being less powerfull than the opponent)s and wait for the huges waves of CS that are incoming.

With your decision making you will just get picked up one by one until the score is 45/15 and there's no way to come back.

Troll for Trump3 votes

That's just it, if you're concentrated in one area, the enemy just takes control of whatever area you aren't there, and can easily group up and mow your entire team down because they know where you are (as everyone is grouped).

They usually will take baron if you don't take some risk by trying to stop them. They know you're grouping and turtling, so they go for baron. If you don't take risks by solo pushing out all the lanes, they will grab uncontested drags and barons.

After baron, they do as you said; they split up. But you can't leave any lane alone, because, with baron buff, they will just take whatever lane they're in down in an instant. Once they get baron, it's over. Some champs don't even need baron. Most champs can mow down turrets really quickly, because of how weak they are lategame. You can't do anything; if you group up in one lane, you lose two inhibs by the time you finish the job. If you spread yourself thin, you get dived. The only way out is to do an all-or-nothing gambit, or, better yet, not fall so behind early on. The state of the game doesn't allow comebacks as much as it used to, even if you play lategame champs.

No, you don't get picked up one by one. You take risks, you understand the risks, and you play safely around them.

But don't just group up like a bunch of idiots in one lane, trying to form a giant mass to protect yourselves. That's useless, and puts up a flag for the enemy to converge and kill off the entire team to end the game.

Ward (especially key objectives), shove out all the lanes, but play cautiously. Ideally, you send the immobile targets to farm the waves closest to the base, and the most mobile targets or most fed ones deeper.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

That's why you always stay mid or top if there's the baron up. And if they go for drake, you take baron, you might want to leave them the drake if they are really ahead.

Troll for Trump1 votes

If they're ahead, no matter which one they get, you're screwed

Starcraft243ver1 votes

I've won countless games from behind. I've lost countless games where I was ahead.

It just takes a bad teamfight, or someone to get caugh to throw a game. No matter how many drakes you got.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Yeah, I'll gamble on that 1% chance for a victory and spend 20 more minutes dragging things out.

mhm.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

Actually I end up winning or losing about 25% of my games because of a throw.

But feel free to keep surrendering and complaining about how you do not climb. You dont need to win all your games to climb. You need to win slightly more than you loses. And not surrendering too early is enough.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Actually I end up winning or losing about 25% of my games because of a throw.

Anecdote.

You don't climb because your team, including you, is bad. It's that simple. You can't "fix" your teammates.

Accept sometimes you got the bad end of the straw, and will lose games, and surrender as quickly as possible to move onto the next one, hopefully with better luck

Starcraft243ver1 votes

{quoted}

Anecdote.

You don't climb because your team, including you, is bad. It's that simple. You can't "fix" your teammates.

Accept sometimes you got the bad end of the straw, and will lose games, and surrender as quickly as possible to move onto the next one, hopefully with better luck

If you want to maximize your winrate that's the worse thing to do ever.

If 25% of my games are throws from a side or the other, let's say it's evened out : 12.5% they throw and 12.5% we throw:

If I instant surrender every apparently lost game without letting a chance for them to throw, I'm cutting my winrate by 12.5%.

That's fucking huge. Sorry I never surrender a game unless we have an afk, someone obviously trolling AND we are 2 inibs down vs no turret touched at 20minuts.

If you dont want to play a game till it ends, dont start one.

Also when you are "bad" compared to your level (because being bad without a reference has no sens, I consider there are only maybe 30 people good at this game and all the others are bad since they do much mistakes), you dont just lose. You lose more than you win.

Not climbing means you are average and you are at the right place.

Climbing means you are at least slightly above average. Also ofc there will be slight variations depending on luck, your physical and mental health at some point. I've got some godlike days where I'm doing really great and these days when I'm tired and not focus and just feeding, but at the end of the year, after a few hundred games played, I know my ranking is fair.

Erockandroll2 votes

To answer your question, probably.

By the time late game comes around, differences in gold start to become less significant. And getting that far into the late game means that teams will eventually return to a stand still with no one having a clear advantage. Thus the only way to break that stand still at that point, is to allow for more mistakes to happen.

And of coarse the reason why vision is missing is because you've run out of inventory slots. And this is kinda the point where having a Rock star support is going to be important, since he's the one with the sight stone. Similar note, if your the Jungler, Consider taking Tracker's knife over the other Jungle enchantments, if you want to increase vision.

Acheron162 votes

What, you dont like playing Minesweeper?

AdeBug1 votes

lol good times

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Vision is already great. If u have no visions its ur fault and team fault. u have plenty items check bush depending on ur role item 3363 item 2049 item 3711 item 3364

TeemoXNidalee1 votes

It's way better than having the whole map lit up by wards.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

Yes. It makes split push strategies actually viable later in the game, and as annoying as that is, it's necessary considering how dominant teamfight/protect the carry comps can be. Why the fuck would I ever 5v5 the Lulu, Orianna, Ivern, Kog'maw, Nautilus comp?

AdeBug1 votes

maybe lower cd on the blue trinket, by level <3

RenownedWheat421 votes

I'm always getting my team vision, so it's chill.

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