I just had an epiphany

Z Statistic··26 votes·1,698 views

People will generally feed a lane because that's how the matchup plays out. Not the 1v1 matchup. The team v team matchup. I think the notion that feeding = bad player is horrifically misguided because it vastly underestimates the base rate of feeding with given starting conditions.

I think some people already have a notion of this. You don't feed Kat, Leblanc, or Kassadin. They snowball hard, so even letting them get a bit ahead can really screw you up. The only problem is that the very things that make them snowball hard are what make them be able to snowball in the first place. Sure, it sucks that Kat go 3 kills. It really does. But are you seriously telling me you don't expect Kat to get 3 kills somehow?

If she didn't get 3 kills to snowball, that's evidence for problems on HER end, not that you played properly.

I think there's two things at work here: the first one is people's tendency to not account for the base rate when judging probabilities, and that leads to horrible over/under estimation when certain things are skewed. The second one is the judgment based on feeling. Yes, it fucking sucks that KAt is snowballing. That does not necessarily mean your teammate (or you) played poorly.

Let's assume both you and your opponent are playing equally well. The enemy is a snowballer. What is the expected outcome? If your answer is, "Ori plays safe and doesn't feed," you have basically said that the expected outcome in Pro play of snowballing champions is that they don't snowball early game. And that's ludicrous. Sure, they might not snowball as hard as pub matches, but you should expect for them to snowball. It's what they do. They way you don't let them snowball is by outplaying them. You know, by being better at the game than them.

24 Comments

For Carthage12 votes

Kassadin snowballs after... like 10 kills.

He's pathetically weak right now... you legitimately have to try to get him fed.

Melledoneus1 votes

Not as bad as Talon. Talon need 4 items to be useful.

For Carthage1 votes

Kass needs mana, CDR, scaling, and bulk simultaneously to do anything at all.

Good luck getting all of that in a single build.

Melledoneus1 votes

item 3027 item 3003 item 3285 item 3089

Just to name a few. I've played Kassadin for a while and he's only good if you can get in on the target and burst them down fast enough with your combo. I find that sometimes item 3100 can be useful against immobile targets.

For Carthage1 votes

You're missing CDR and actual bulk. RoA gives some health but leaves you lacking in armor and magic resistance.

Lichbane is fallible because it requires you to AA every time and sometimes you're not looking to hit someone, but rather just Q/E for a quick burst before leaving again. Unless you're super ahead, Lich is garbage.

Honestly, Kass is so lackluster that even by lategame - which is supposed to be where he shines - anybody can blow him up and anybody can survive his burst. Before then you want to be able to blink around as much as possible so you can roam to get kills. God forbid you have incompetent fellow laners or you'll never get fed.

Melledoneus1 votes

Zhonya's Hourglass.

For Carthage1 votes

And where's your CDR for your 9 second cooldown abilities?

Melledoneus1 votes

Kassadin does not need CDR because it is not necessary for his burst playstyle. It's best to prioritize damage and mana sustain over spammability, because CDR is only really useful for 2 of his abilities. It's not worth it.

The best type of Kassadin is the type that jumps to the carry, bursts them to oblivion, then Riftwalks to safety. If you get in a nasty situation, Zhonya's is your best friend.

For Carthage1 votes

Then you've clearly never had your Rift Walk at 1.2 seconds, because that shit is... delicious.

And his burst is the most lackluster in the game. Past Syndra, past Akali, past any of the other uber-nerfed champs hit for being just too darn oppressive in the right hands - Kass was hit so hard for having mobility (and it being about the only thing allowing him to do anything at all) that his burst is now mitigated almost entirely by the existence of Spectre's Cowl - not even the full item, just Spectre's Cowl is enough. Last time I saw a Kass get a teensy bit ahead, I told our Vayne to build one. She did. She got the 500 gold shutdown bonus the next time he tried to jump her and proceeded to snowball us to victory.

Kass needs the CDR because otherwise he's not doing damage. The only exception is if you're just so far ahead that even Zilean would be able to carry with that kind of gold.

Fatalitý1 votes

I agree with the Kassadin post, Kassadin is probably the worst mid laner in the game right now. Talon is underpowered compared to like zed or yasuo, but no where near as bad as Kassadin

Melledoneus1 votes

He needs some range on his W. Or an MR debuff when he uses Q so he can go in.

THEJJSLAY1 votes

I believe he meant old kass

ChargeItDownMid3 votes

[deleted]

Z Statistic1 votes

Kat is an outlier since she's so extreme. A better example would be Riven since she has pretty good early game and has a lot of multiplicative scaling that makes her offense scale faster than most people who go against her.

There's also the opposite kind of snowball, like Gnar, where you basically just survive lane and you get tanky regardless.

Then there's champions like Jinx who snowball temporarily.

My post isn't saying that snowball champions never get shut down or even rarely. They quite often get shutdown, especially in higher play. My point is that these higher level players probably don't have the mindset of expecting Kat to do poorly in lane because she's weak early on and therefore more or less ignoring her. They probably have the mindset of simply assuming she is going to snowball and then by expecting that outcome they anticipate what she will do and then subsequently shut her down before she can snowball beyond control.

The reason I use Kat in this particular example because at least to me, it seems to be consistent with everyone and not just an outlier. If you expect that Riven is going to snowball, you take countermeasures before it even happens. If you expect Jinx to get a proc on her passive, you start doing things to anticipate mitigating that.

Whether that's probabilistic expected outcome or strategic game theory, it doesn't exactly matter. I think the more successful people anticipate this outcome instead of complaining that it's bad teammates.

53436278DEL12 votes

good post if they want to snowball by roaming since ur not feeding them in lane prep for it by warding pushing and following = set up counter play

slippykitten2 votes

Feeding isn't the same thing as losing a lane.

No matter what, you should always be able to end a laning phase at least at 0/2/0 and down about 20 cs when your tower falls. This is losing lane, this is acceptable. It means you got outplayed/countered/behind from gank/whatever and did the best you could.

Feeding is where you are 0/5/0 and down 100 cs. This is because you're retarded. You went and fought over and over and over thinking that the result was going to be different even though you were only getting farther behind. This is gross negligence for your team. This is the arrogant child who thinks "i'm either going to win this lane and carry or im just gonna feed until my team helps me carry". This is feeding, this is losing your team the game because you didn't want to play smart and rely on your team, and this is someone i report every time.

Z Statistic1 votes

After how long?

Are you assuming this is after 10 minutes? I'm pretty sure if player A has 100 cs and is 5/0/0 and player B has 0 cs and is 0/5/0 at 10 minutes, this is a skill difference, probably between two players of vastly different skill level since 10 cs per minute on top of trading and ultimately killing someone once every 2 minutes is actually extremely efficient play (plat-diamond level). Just getting 100 cs per 10 minutes is actually pretty damn good.

If this is 20 minutes and person A is 5/0/0 with 200 CS and person B is 0/5/0 with 100 cs, that is suddenly much more different. This is also still a skill difference between players, but now player B in scenario 2 is probably more skilled than player B is scenario 1 due to ratios.

You're also assuming someone is equally good at playing defensively as they are offensively. If you have two people of equal skill level and both of them are very good at punishing mistakes but not very good at playing defensively, someone is going to make a mistake and then the other one is going to punish them for it.

So the result is that you have 2 people of EQUAL overall skill but both highly skewed to offense having a laning phase where the snowball just starts immediately. What is the expected outcome? It should NOT be that the laning phase goes tit for tat; that's just not how games go. People go on streaks and then something happens that breaks that streak and then the other person may start going on their own streak or the first person might start another streak.

WooBeeWoo1 votes

Exactly. Whenever I see Lee Sin and he doesn't get three gank kills.... its sorta like nice Lee is behind lol

Laustin Space1 votes

To an extent! There are still often ways to prevent the person from snowballing by playing smart. The problem is people often think they can still go toe to toe with an enemy that's so far ahead or even hold up in lane and farm. Those people often go 0/10 before the laning phase even ends and THAT is what's considered feeding. Someone who understands this, their enemies power and their own power can prevent such from happening. If you're behind and you aren't confident that you really can go toe to toe with them then simply don't.

1v51 votes

Pro play of snowballing champions is that they don't snowball early game. And that's ludicrous. Sure, they might not snowball as hard as pub matches, but you should expect for them to snowball.

You are wrong. This is why people rarely play snowball champs in pro play, because they are shit and countered by being good.

Z Statistic1 votes

Well, I'm looking at pro builds.net and of the top 36 champions played in the past 7 days, 11 of them have strong snowball mechanics.

So unless you're specifically thinking Kat since she is the archetypical snowball champion, I'm seeing pros play snowball champions.

Stars Shaper1 votes

If our team has AoE dislocation/silence or point and click hard CC yes I don't expect Kata to have the chance to channel her ultimate.

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