The Issue of tanks: When Are we getting another one and when will tanks be reworked?.

DragonShea·Jun 18, 2016·11 votes·1,301 views

Hey All. I was thinking about tanks and really I am thinking that they are not really that defined in terms of gameplay and mechanics as many times, tank gears as been abused on non-tanks and I was wondering when tanks are getting a rework as they seem to be a rather aged role to play as in league. I understand that some tanks are up-to-date like Shen and rework taric(if you can call him a tank) but the fact of the matter is that many tanks are of an old school design of dealing magic damage and having high radio's when they are meant to tank, leading to the likes of AP Rammus, Maokai and Malphite. Don't get me wrong. I do think that tanks are ok at the moment, but i still think that they need some kind of rework in the future to prevent the game being all about the damage dealers.

55 Comments

TheOvermindJun 18, 20163 votes

Tanks are flawed simply because they only do become tanks when they buy items, unlike any other class in league (mages and adcs scale writh items but don't need them to be considered mages or adcs) a malphite is considered a "tank" but he can go full ap and then his champion attribute is lost. A Vayne can go full ap or full tank but she still remains an adc (just a much much weaker one) What I'm trying to say is a champion is designed as an adc (auto atk reliant kit and abilities that enhance that) or an assassin (lots of mobility, bursty abilities and lots of evasiveness) where a tank is simply not a tank unless they build tank.

ValyrianBladeJun 18, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Tanks are flawed simply because they only do become tanks when they buy items, unlike any other class in league (mages and adcs scale writh items but don't need them to be considered mages or adcs) a malphite is considered a "tank" but he can go full ap and then his champion attribute is lost. A Vayne can go full ap or full tank but she still remains an adc (just a much much weaker one) What I'm trying to say is a champion is designed as an adc (auto atk reliant kit and abilities that enhance that) or an assassin (lots of mobility, bursty abilities and lots of evasiveness) where a tank is simply not a tank unless they build tank.

I disagree with this to an extent.

For me, a tank is as much about building tankiness to survive taking a lot of damage as it is having abilities to allow it to survive for longer as well.

Basically, having lots of CC that allows you to prevent an enemy ADC/APC from dealing a lot of damage will make you survive longer, and thus makes you "tankier".

Further, a lot of tanks have armor/mr/health steroids in their kit. Leona has an Armor/MR boost, Malphite has a health shield, Tahm Kench has a health shield, Braum blocks projectiles, Maokai heals on auto attacks after spell casts, etc...

Combine this with CC, and even without tank items these tanks can survive a lot longer than your typical squishy. They may not be AS well defined, but they're still there.

That isn't to say that there aren't issues with tanks that need to be addressed - short of putting a taunt in every tanks kit there isn't a reliable way to let them really do their job of, well, tanking damage. CC is a good answer to that (just stop the damage outright and have the tankiness to be able to go in and do it) but there's probably still room for some innovative thinking to make it better.

doubleguacJun 19, 20161 votes

Assassins tend to have certain skill sets. They are mobile and bursty, and often have some clutch mitigation tool.

Tanks tend to have certain skill sets. They are disruptive (usually with CC), they usually have some skill that helps them soak additional damage, and they usually have a skill or two that encourages enemies to focus them.

Malphite, Sejuani, and Amumu all have some kind of initiation, multiple CC skills, and a big AoE lockdown on their ultimates. That's no a coincidence. They all features those because they are all traditional tanks.

A Vayne can go full ap or full tank but she still remains an adc (just a much much weaker one)

An sejuani who builds straight AD is still a tank. She's just a weaker one.

Sire HippingtonJun 18, 20163 votes

I think you(and many others) have a flawed idea of what a tank does in a pvp game. This is not an mmo-rpg, you can't just draw aggro and then soak damage for the rest of the team. You need to be a threat so your opponents have a reason to waste their damage on you, or pay a price if they don't. And high magical basedamage on top of the cc is a good way of ensureing that a tank doesn't get ignored when building tanky. And since farming is the nr.1 source of gold in this game, you also need that damage to gain gold, or you are forced into the support position. I also don't see the isue with good enough ap ratios for ap-focused builts to work. It's a different playstyle that has clear drawbacks. Imo Such 'off-builts' should get support more rather then less in general. Ofc some outliners like old ap yi can be an issue, but generally where is nothing wrong with alternative playstyles if they have sufficient tradeoffs.

Tanks overall are the class that needs a rework the least, they are in not a bad spot both power and gamehealth wise.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20162 votes

Unless you have a taunt, then no, you can't in League. And yes, you do have to be a threat to the enemy team, but you have to soak up some damage or else you are fucked, and I don't care if tanks have some damage, the issue is when is too much and I don't mine if tank can build bruiser, as I am build rammus as a juggernaut with item 3748 and item 3152 and it works because of damage scaling of tank items. And tanks in general apart from sunfire cape or their abilities, are poor farmers and that is the reason tank items cost a little less than damage items.

So going in for the trade off. Tanks are tanks but being able to become a bursty mage with some defensive abilities is not the intended play style.

Michael SykesJun 18, 20162 votes

Agree with you, and Riot knows the facts you listed. They are probably going to get a roster update like the Juggernauts, Marksmen and the Mages had, but it won't be this year. First they are going to look at the Slayers or Diving fighters

DragonSheaJun 18, 20161 votes

Yeah after that they have finished with every role. they should do a clean up update.

Michael SykesJun 18, 20162 votes

I think that tanks will get the update after one of those classes has been updated. Although I fear a tank meta after this update .__.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20161 votes

Well that is funny because all of the tank buster level items there so I can understand this from a glass cannon's perspective.

Michael SykesJun 18, 20161 votes

depends extremely on the champion you play - but luckily it seems that the current tanky meta shifts to another meta - more carry toplaners, but tank junglers and ap supports

MLDzXnRRRJun 18, 20162 votes

If the tanks deals no damage, you can ignore them and kill them after you clean their team.

Titanium70Jun 18, 20162 votes

So... in a possible Class-Rework, you give them Kits they cant be ignored with.

Shielding allies, bodyblocking projectiles, linking HP-Bars, massive CC, creating Walls and so on.

PartholonianJun 18, 20162 votes

No, that's a juggernaut. A true tank has utility that can't be ignored. Alistar Amumu Braum Chogath Galio Malphite Maokai Nautilus Rammus Sejuani Shen Skarner Volibear Zac will not let you go after priority targets effectively, or even at all, if you're trying to just walk past them to do it.

The problem is if the tank isn't tanky enough, then you can just blow them up before you clean up their team. The current situation isn't quite as bad as the old "build LW every game, armor doesn't exist" meta, but tanks still aren't very tanky -- within a couple of seconds either you'll be dead or they will.

So their only resort is to build damage and try to 100-0 you before the CC wears off.

RalanrJun 18, 20162 votes

They probably aren't the highest priority for a class update at the moment. I could see them after assassins (so if assassins are the preseason, tanks would be mid season 7) but diving fighters might get that slot (as a tank player, I hope not).

I'm not sure what they'd try to do for a tank update though. Items will be a tough job since pretty much any item good on a tank is great on a juggernaut (which are usually the first type of champions to bring frustration with these items) which they may want to avoid.

They might cut the early game strengths of tanks down (I think a lot of older tanks are pretty durable early game) to follow the example of Shen and Sion: two tanks with rather low base stats for their jobs. This is balanced by their self defensive abilities (shields mainly) and also encourages them to build tanky in order to become tanky.

%health damage might become more common on tanks (it's not exactly uncommon though) because it helps keep their damage relevant without building damage (or they will have damage scaling with health like Sion, Shen, Tahm, or Braum). I get that people hate getting killed by tanks and want tanks to do no damage, but that wouldn't promote tanks to be played. Tanks need farm and if they can't farm decently then they can't buy items, this is more important to tank junglers, who would need some decent clear times.

Tanks should never do damage on the level of carries. And I haven't seen them do that anyway. For a tank to be as damaging as a carry, they'd be able to destroy other tanks 1v1 relatively quickly because that's what high damage is. It doesn't take much to actually kill a squishy carry that has no sustain (which isn't uncommon early game because they will rush a crit item first most of the time) and isn't kiting (which is difficult depending on the champion and/or level of the champion. Late game Lucian and Vayne are going to kite like made due to their mobility, but immobile adc (like Twitch or Fortune) require good positioning knowledge to be able to kite at all stages of the game).

There's also making the tanks unique. Again, there are people who hate the design philosophy of specialization since it feels like it shoehorns a champion into a role (like supports being stuck in bot). But that needs to happen on some level because it encourages champion diversity.

Take MSI. Top lane was Tank Ekko, Poppy, and Maokai. Their were no other tanks that were better picks because those tanks were pretty much masters of all. Generalists are fine, except when they do the job of the specialist better on top of doing other things.

Ex:Why tank Sion if Malphite provides better engage?

These are just my thoughts on tanks.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20162 votes

I think that balance is seriously needed. many of the tanks up top like the ones you mentioned have insane base damage and thus can get away with building tanky. And as for tanks with low HP and high shields, their design is justified as they can be killed easier than other tanks but can outlast them when played right.

And going on about tanks with high damage and getting a little personal. I am thinking about my main rammus as I build him tanky and with damage and he can deal a good bit of it because of the scaling of his passive, titanic hydra and grasp of the undying. that is scaling from both armor and damage and that is scary when you think about it as well as his sticking power which is augmented by using Protobelt which is viable on him because of his AP scaling and the Hp it gives. So I was thinking that tanks should either be mobile and less poor damage or immobile and be able to deal damage but not to the extend of juggs unless you want to lost tankiness.

RalanrJun 18, 20162 votes

Balancing their damage around their mobility instead of their tankiness could work. The more mobile the tank is, the less damage they do since their damage would be more reliable and possibly overbearing if too high.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20161 votes

Well Shen and Sejuani are mobile tanks for starters because of their dashes and Shen's Ult. The others are only semi-moblie, Rammus has his roll. Malphite his ult, Maokai's W and Sions ult.

RalanrJun 18, 20163 votes

Shen has a surprising amount of damage if he gets all 3 of his Q in

DragonSheaJun 18, 20161 votes

True, and it's hit for miss for the enhanced Q if he managed to hit his target with his spirit sword, in fact Rylai's is a good offensive item for him as the AP will increase the shield of his ult.

RalanrJun 18, 20162 votes

Which isn't that hard if you land your E.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20161 votes

True, combined with his W, he can be differcult to kill if he blows all of his CD's and with his Q's short CD he will most likely get another shield.

RalanrJun 18, 20161 votes

Yep. Pretty much all of Shen top is a short skirmish with his combo and a rest period before the next. If you can mess up his combo then he's pretty screwed for a short bit.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20161 votes

True and from experience he can't kill off his target unless they are at 70% HP or so but he will leave a mark.

Critmaster GarenJun 18, 20162 votes

well, the last one was tahm, and poppy is considered a tank i guess, so her rework basically gave us another one.

RalanrJun 18, 20164 votes

Do they count reworked champions in their release cycle? I'm just asking cause I never considered Poppy's rework to fulfill a new tank from the design team (as stupid as that sounds, which sounds very stupid now that I typed it).

I'd like to see a new top/jg tank as the next champion, though as long as it isn't another adc, support, Mage (two is enough for a while) or assassin (I don't think we need a new assassin for a while honestly, but I'm being biased) then I'm fine.

I probably should have just said tank or fighter.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20161 votes

Nah you are not being biased in this case that one of the reason I started this post. because I think that tanks are being left in the dust.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20161 votes

True, but I was talking about a the top lane type tank, like malphite and Maokai.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20162 votes

I made an Idea post about how I would to balance offensive and defensive items and stats. So check out the link if you feel like it:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/tA378KN3-balance-issue-tank-assassins-and-balancing-offense-and-defense

QuephaJun 18, 20162 votes

Vanguards are a possible candidate for the next class update (although I strongly believe Divers should be looked at instead)

I disagree with you about how tanks are defined. We have Vanguards as offensive initiators with cc and a bit of damage, Wardens as defensive protectors with cc that's stronger for peeling and utility to protect allies, and if you stretch the definition you get to Juggernauts who are huge zoning threats with top-tier damage and durability along with Divers who can tear up the enemy back line but without quite as much durability as the other 3.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20161 votes

I agree with you because you are explaining one of the things I was trying to say. I didn't mention vanguards and wardens yet because the role system hasn't been updated yet and people would still confused about those terms.

QuephaJun 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I agree with you because you are explaining one of the things I was trying to say. I didn't mention vanguards and wardens yet because the role system hasn't been updated yet and people would still confused about those terms.

I think people get more confused if you use the nebulous term "tank" which only exists in the old champion tags which have been useless for a very long time.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20161 votes

Hmm I see. Well I use the term "tank" to define a champion that defends their team by taking damage for them and having utility and perhaps some damage to make them a threat to the enemy team. But yeah, using the word "tank" and "tanky" has gotten confusing so I think it would be best if I said a champion is durable or not because Juggs and divers are durable but not tanks.

ApocalypsicJun 19, 20162 votes

Buff their tankiness and gut their base stats for damage. Tanks have no business dealing the kind of damage they can deal right now.

That will be the rework I'm happy with.

MLDzXnRRRJun 19, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Buff their tankiness and gut their base stats for damage. Tanks have no business dealing the kind of damage they can deal right now.

That will be the rework I'm happy with.

Tanks deal low damage, but you are playing squishies. Go in custom game with friends and play tanks vs bruisers teams and see how much damage deal and take the tanks compared to the fighters.

RalanrJun 19, 20161 votes

Then they'd have shit ability to farm and would be rather detrimental in anything beyond support.

Again, their damage isn't actually that high in the grand scheme of things. It's high enough to be a threat for squishy champions though, because pretty much anything can kill a squishy champion.

SpoofghoulJun 19, 20162 votes

well the high scalings are not a problem, that said its not that high scaling very often and they have to go melee and building full ap means they are no longer a tank so thats kind of healthy as opposed to full tank fizz who still murders everyone

Anyway i agree with you

Tanks aren't defined In my opinion we need more diverse tank roles/niches In order to do that a set of subclasses would be nice, and some reworks to make certain champions fit these subclasses, they would have to fit there thematically

One such a subclass im thinking of would be the behemoth, a tank equivalent of the juggernaut sort of

Now this would be the strenghts

It would have high base damage and strong scalings, Hybrid damage to make itemixzation against it a bit more difficult. Very potent CC A strong scaling lategame, gets very tanky Early game, level 1-5, bully potential but not that strong in allins at this point. A possibility to start rolling early on if not dealth with. And possible other strenghts would vary between champions to fit their niche

And this would be its primary weakness. Highly unreliable, but each and everyone of them should have at least 1 reliable thing they can do, whether its being extremely tanky or a reliable engage tool or some other for of utility. Like 90% of their kit would be very unreliable and therefore this means they have a high risk vs a high reward Another weakness would be lack of mobility outside of an engage tool. Other weaknesses would vary between champions.

So who would fit this description currently? Sion He has the potential to unload a ton of damage for a tank and has piles of cc he can also get very tanky but literally everything in his kit is highly unreliable, which is one of the reasons he isnt picked much, currently he lacks a bit of reward or reliability i have my own idea's how to fix this but lets not get into that now

Other possible champions who would could be reworked into this category in my opinion. Malphite Maokai Nautilus

Well thats just one subclass of tanks that could exist

And there would need to be vangaurds, primary engage champions with tools to start fights

Wardens who would focus more on protecting or buffing their team

The support tank lack of damage made up with reliability in utility

I think in generall all tanks would need high base health and good base resistances and base sustain with itemization available to counter the various damage threaths or provide some team utility through aura's

Itemizition that would synergize with their high health and resistances and therefore be less likely to be abused by champions who lack this base health and resistances

DragonSheaJun 19, 20161 votes

Poppy is also one of the durable fighters that prioritize durability first due to her E passive. I would like Rammus to also be reworking to the vanguard(or inverted juggernaut) as he does deal good game and can abuse the scaling of his passive and of his kit rather well(some that I have written a guide about in Mobafire) but having Malphite and the other two you mention being one of those tanks would be cool as well.

I also worry about league not having enough braum type tanks as many of the tanks in league right now prioritize some kind of offensive but the fact is that durability and tankiness(as in defending and protecting your buds) should always come first for them as damage is just a privilege for them, otherwise you should just pick a jugg

SpoofghoulJun 19, 20161 votes

yea i think jugs are the tankeist fighter champs

if you want to be a fighter and a tank pick one of those

that being said the ''behemoth'' would have juggernaut qualities in terms of damage and be more tanky aswell as having alrge amounts of cc but it would be unreliable, think sion ult or Q easy to miss or sidestep and they need to be chaarged up for full effect its high risk but gives good reward. They would be champs you dont want to get too close too unless you are skilled enough to work around them.

yea warden tanks like braum, we need more of them.

rammus would qualify as more of a vangaurd

all these tanks would have niches ofc like malphite vs AD maokai vs magic if you need a vanguard pick rammus or poppy who can dive very easy rammus would be good vs AD and poppy vs mix damage Maybe galio could be reworked into more of a vangaurd aswell and be good vs magic damage

So then you would have multiple reasons to pikc a tank or even more then 1 tank, like a vangaurd for reliable engage tools and then a behemoth for extra frontline with good followup cc and damage and then is they are mostly magic one could grab a maokai and a galio for example and do really well.

So these tanks would get a niche role vs damage and one for their other uses like followup and damage or protection of carry's or reliable engage tools.

currently all we see is maokai point and click engage with that ult of his making everyone tanky hes good at everything and crowding out other tanks i think hed be perfect for a rework into a ''behemoth'' Malphite is also pretty much a stunbot right now and could receive a similar treatment.

DragonSheaJun 19, 20161 votes

I see what you mean, making a class equal in damage and tankiness but with some serious drawbacks and risks involved as to not make them OP. Sion for one can miss with all of his abilities, Move out of his Q, Kite is His W, dodge his E and his Ult warns other players. I think that would be a good design for the behemoths

HellioningJun 18, 20161 votes

If you don't want tanks to do damage, would you like tanks CCing you every five seconds? Because that's what is gonna happen.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20161 votes

That is not the issue. Some like Rammus do deal damage yes, some shield allies like Braum and others like Sejuani Slow the crap out of the enemy team. So no, I don't want Tanks to be CC bot's to but have their durability be prioritised because their niche.

HellioningJun 18, 20161 votes

If someone's immensely durable but isn't threatening, they're useless.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20161 votes

Hmm but then you have to consider that being a glass cannon with a lot of threat behind you will get you killed, fast. I am not saying that that durability should be overshadowing threat but that it(contradictory to my previous post), but it should be like this Threat ~= Durability. Because some people have argued that threat is a priority and I have been in favor of Durability. but both is was is needed for a tank to function, some are more offensive, other should be more defensive but we are not talking about one champion nor is their only one tank champ in the game.

PartholonianJun 18, 20161 votes

But there's more ways than damage to be "threatening". That's the whole point of the difference between a juggernaut and a tank. Hard engage, for example, is not useless even if you rely on teammates to finish off the target. Same for peel. Tanks should have non-damage value, which often comes as CC but could be in other ways (e.g. Shen ult).

Basically as I see it there are four main dimensions of a champion's power: damage, durability, mobility and utility. Nobody can be good at too many, but different champions and classes are good at different ones. Durability is sometimes called "tankiness" but tanks actually aren't the only class that has high durability, juggernauts do too. Tanks have high durability and utility, usually low damage, and may or may not have some mobility but not Yasuo/Kalista/Kassadin level. Juggernauts have high damage and durability, bad mobility and usually very little utility.

So you can't have just durability, but there are multiple other things you can have that can make you useful while you're not dying.

HellioningJun 19, 20161 votes

Yes, but like I said: all the durability in the world is useless if you have no reason to kill them in a teamfight. If that reason isn't their damage, then it needs to be something like CC. Do you think it's annoying now when Maokai just keeps rooting you? If they lower his damage, he's gonna do that a whole lot more.

So it's going to be a choice of having tanks do some sort of damage, or having tanks be ridiculous CC monsters, or having tanks give massive buffs to their teammates. I think the first is the least frustrating.

ParoeJun 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That is not the issue. Some like Rammus do deal damage yes, some shield allies like Braum and others like Sejuani Slow the crap out of the enemy team. So no, I don't want Tanks to be CC bot's to but have their durability be prioritised because their niche.

People also often complain about bruisers, not tanks at all. Like garen, volibear, trundle, fiora...

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/PlfI3Qyl-shalaeon-the-spirit-of-iron?show=flat&page=2

A concept like this is a fairly good example of a tank that would be balanced... Tanks should be rewarded for building tanky, and their power should be in CC and supplementary damage rather than massive waveclear or burst.

DragonSheaJun 18, 20161 votes

That is true but because they there is so much focus on the offensive aspect, I wanted to deal with the defensive side of things. But in general i think they are a little tricky to balance.

Psi21Jun 18, 20161 votes

Tanks do too much damage. Often having a 1:1 ratio on an ability an AoE CC or multiple CCs. And lets not forget some enjoy True damage perks.

Up CC and projection to the team on tanks makes them something that no one can ignore. NOT STUPID DAMAGE ON A TANK.

Again, drastically lower the damage on their abilities and get rid of true damage on any tankish character.

DragonSheaJun 19, 20161 votes

I have seen a lot people having different opinions about tanks what their core function is. well, on paper they are meant to be defenders that soak up damage will being a threat to the enemy team, how? that depends on each champion in the game as none of them are the same. A good argument I saw here was about the Vanguards and the Wardens, with the former being the ones that jump into the enemy team and fucks shit up or the wardens that peel and zone up their enemies and pick them off if they break formation.

Now, you may wonder what is the difference between a tank and a juggernaut? Well correct me if i am wrong, but juggs have more damage in their kit and some defensive abilities but little proper tank utility, Darius's E has a long CD, Garen's Silence is short and single target etc.

Tanks on the other hand have something affect a team fight which makes them a threat, Rammus being a Vanguard based tank, has good damage, a defensive steroid, a taunt and an ult that deals serious damage. but what is his trade off?, Too focus on Armor= damage and his CC is not as good as other tanks. Malphite a lot of ways to annoy the enemy team, Q steals speed, W deals AoE damage and his E slows while his ult crashes the party. Braum has poor damage but he is a beast in keeping anyone that tries to jump his team.

So in essence what makes tank a threat is; Durability and threat, which include CC, utility and damage. the difference between Vanguards and wardens is that the former favor damage and the latter utility but that is not really something absolute.

LovelleJun 25, 20161 votes

The reason that champions like Mao, Rammus, and Malph are going AP is because most of the "pure tank items" are not only not cost efficient, but get super outscaled by damage (particularly the penetration items).

This leads to a situation where they're entirely dependent on their team for damage, while being easy kills late game due to the new penetration items. In this sense, it's much more efficient to build damage and rely on early game base damage so they can actually help carry a game. Anything less just makes them a CC bot, which can potentially make the game a 4v5 unless every damage dealer does their job well.

The tank situation in LoL is the same as in FFXIV, if a tank isn't capable of decent dps, you're better off picking something else, which is why Warrior and Dark Knight are picked over Paladin in nearly all situations. Tanks have to be capable of at least some level of threatening damage in order to not be outclassed by bruisers and assassins building like bruisers.