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Dynamic queue will destroy the integrity of ranked.

BluePolarizer··7 votes·1,171 views

There is no way to demonstrate how good you are with dynamic queue. DOTA has already tried this: if you queue solo, you get a solo queue MMR. If you queue as a party, you get a party MMR. In DOTA, nobody ever cares about your party MMR, only your solo MMR. The only time your party MMR matters is if you are extremely high elo, you might get to play against actual pros who play as a full team.

Right now, if dynamic queue is introduced into solo queue, all it shows is that you know higher elo friends who can carry you. It's alot easier to carry someone as a 4-stack or 5-stack with voice comms than it is to carry as a duo among 5. What if I had diamond 1 friends who could carry me to diamond 3/4? Does that mean I deserve diamond 3/4? I mean, I'm good enough to simply play safe and farm or play on a super safe peeling support on a team that will play around me, though not to make active plays against mid diamonds by myself, but is that all that matters?

Coincidentally, despite this encouraging the use of voice comms, there is no built in voice comm in league.

20 Comments

t0ad57 votes

Since when does ranked have integrity?

DrCyanide3 votes

Your first mistake is assuming there currently is ranked integrity.

How many people can only play one champion, and when they're not on that champion they play significantly worse? Their rank isn't representing their actual skill level, just their skill level on one champion in one role.

If you want Ranked Integrity, then you should be clambering for ranks on each role and each champion, so you actually know how skilled someone is.

BluePolarizer2 votes

being good at a champion is only 1 part of skill. There is also decision making which is champion independent. I guarantee if someone is amazing at mechanics but has shit for brains, they wouldn't be able to rise beyond low plat or so since they wouldn't know where to be on the map at what time to utilize those mechanics.

DrCyanide1 votes

My Diamond 4 friend has a 53.93% win rate ADC, but a 29.63% win rate Jungle. His highest non-ADC win rate is 45%. Positioning is important, but it's very clear he would not be considered Diamond if he was graded on the other roles.

As for you, you've got a few more fallback positions. 55.23% win rate Jungle, 52.47% win rate Support, 41.11% Top, 40.91% Mid, 34.29% ADC. I assume you'd agree that your positioning experience at Jungle and Support isn't enough to help you win as an ADC, Mid, or Top, despite you knowing how to move around the map and when to be where.

Whatever your rank, people perform significantly better on certain champions or certain roles. If positioning was the highest factor in a win rate, that trend would not hold at higher elos.

BluePolarizer2 votes

Positioning requirements are different for different roles. I usually play bruisers, assassins or initiator tanks. My correct position is: in the backline of the enemy team. Because I know how they work, I am also good at initiator supports and peeling supports because I know exactly how the enemy bruisers/assassins are going to work.

I don't position well as a backline squishy.

What I mean by ranked integrity is that your rating is reflective of your personal highest level performance. Dynamic queue destroys that rating because now you can get carried, even on your primary role, to a rating higher than the one you deserve simply by queuing with friends on smurfs (or in my case, queuing with diamond friends directly).

DrCyanide1 votes

Lets go on for a moment and assume the worst case scenario happens. Bobby Bronze 5 gets his friend, David Diamond 1, to get a bunch of Diamond players to smurf and create a ranked group that they play with. The 4 Diamond players can work around Bobby's lack of skill and carry Bobby all the way to Diamond. How many solo games do you think Bobby will play without his friends? He knows he'll fall out of Diamond if he plays solo, so he'll likely rarely play ranked alone, just enough to not decay. This is no different than if he got his account boosted, except for the experience that was had along the way was generally viewed as a good thing for all involved. The only people unhappy with the situation are those people who are playing with Bobby when his friends aren't around, but as long as Bobby can play with his friends once a month they never have to be on Bobby's team.

I ask you, if someone is only playing with their friends, do you really care what rank they are or how skilled they are? Bobby, despite starting out Bronze 5, has inevitably learned a few tips and tricks from his Diamond 1 teammates. He's better than he was, even if he needs a nudge in the right direction via voice chat from time to time. His highest level of performance isn't alone, where he's prone to forget his positioning or chase after kills or objectives that aren't important, but with a team that can remind him what he needs to focus on.

As someone who regularly plays Mid, with a Sup main and Jungle main that I queue up with, it's amazing how much dumber you feel when you don't have your entire group together for ranked. Nothing flows as smoothly. I'm the highest rank out of all of us, so it's not like I'm being carried by their individual skill, we just work better as the three of us. More likely than not it's groups like me and my friends that you'll have to watch out for, rather than the edge boosting case.

BluePolarizer1 votes

If I am a silver, gold or a plat that gets stomped by the 4 stack of diamonds who is boosting their bronze buddies, I'm sure as hell going to be pissed.

It also destroys the integrity of the ladder because now you have no idea if any plat or diamond is really a plat or diamond, or just a booster.

DrCyanide1 votes

Guess what? I'm the Silver guy that got stomped by Plat and Diamond Smurfs duoing in the last few days of this season! What you fear happening already happens, and it wouldn't matter if they are smurfs with their genuinely low level friend or if they're smurfs without a low level friend.

You currently don't know who's been boosted or not, so what changes there either?

The only thing that changes is that you, as a person that plays solo, are less likely to get matched with or against someone who was boosted unless they've got their teammates around. The group of them got to the rank they're at, so as a unit they are at the same elo as you.

If you care only about comparing your shiny ranked badge with strangers then yes, you will be disappointed with dynamic queue. If you care about actually playing with good teams and against challenging competitors, then you should enjoy the dynamic queue even if all you play is solo.

The Queen Viper1 votes

{quoted}

I ask you, if someone is only playing with their friends, do you really care what rank they are or how skilled they are?

Yes, since it's highly likely that this someone cannot function outside of their group of friends. The very moment he tries to go play solo, he's a liability since it's possible that the someone got carried by their friends and therefore doesn't necessarily belong to that elo. He's also a liability to the solo player as well, if that someone is the weakest member of that premade group.

{quoted}

Bobby, despite starting out Bronze 5, has inevitably learned a few tips and tricks from his Diamond 1 teammates.

No, not necessarily. Maybe Bobby is only doing what his Diamond 1 friends are telling him to ... and if he ever decides to play without his Diamond 1 friends, he cannot function since he doesn't have that "crutch" to rely on.

I just leave this one here: _ "The higher MMR you go the more important teamwork related decisions are. IE; When to roam, when to group, when to split - these are all teamwork related decisions. When you queue up by yourself in SOLO Q you have to learn how to develop these teamwork related decision making skills by yourself because if you don't try to play with your team then you will not climb past low silver._

In a group or a team all these teamwork related decision making skills get relegated to one or two people. What will actually happen is that some people will get very good at leading dynamic groups to victory while some people will just get lucky by happening to know someone who is a really strategically minded person. This means that the followers in the dynamic group will not truly earn the MMR gained by playing in the group because it isn't their decision-making that is winning them games.

This means that when follower X actually queues up at an MMR gained through following calls of another player then they will not have developed the skills necessary to play at that MMR.

Secondly, The reason why high level team games are so different from solo queue is because the teams build actual teamcompositions to fullfill particular objectives. Dynamic groups of less than 5 cannot play this way because there is no way to guarantee that the 1 or 2 players playing with the group of 3 or 4 will play the correct champion for the teamcomposition.

Thirdly, players who have been boosted by their dynamic group will not be able to play by themselves in ranked anymore because they will get destroyed by players who might be actually worth their MMR. This will mean that players in gold because their dynamic group has a diamond level shotcaller will be thrashed by actual gold players once the midgame rolls around and the actual gold level players with actual decisionmaking skills group and roam correctly and the boosted gold player doesn't.

Fourthly, this will lead to a new kind of toxicity where people will get told to stick to their dynamic group because they are bad and can't play the game at the rank that the dynamic group has led them to. Instead of being told go back to sandbox, they will be told don't play by themselves. _ Lastly, soloq rank will mean nothing. You just got carried by your dynamic group even if you didn;t."_

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/uEvIgWuE-ranked-changes?comment=0016

DrCyanide1 votes

Yes, since it's highly likely that this someone cannot function outside of their group of friends. The very moment he tries to go play solo, he's a liability since it's possible that the someone got carried by their friends and therefore doesn't necessarily belong to that elo.

If someone got carried by their friends, what do you think the odds are that they prefer to play alone and would even queue up solo?

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/uEvIgWuE-ranked-changes?comment=0016

The fault with their logic is that they assume people will change their playing habits. It's safe to say there are a few kinds of players:

  • Solo only (the primary dissenters for the dynamic queues)
  • Mostly solo, occasional group (duo or more)
  • Mostly group, occasional solo
  • Group only (those most in favor of dynamic queues)

Solo Only, Mostly Solo, and Group Only are not going to effect matchmaking at all, since the system either is evaluating their performance in a situation that never changes (Solo Only and Group Only) or is mostly accurate (Mostly solo = mostly evaluated on your own).

So the group that is the cause of so much discussion is Mostly Group, Occasional Solo. Of that group, we have the following types of players:

  • Those that play with players higher level than them
  • Those that play with players equal level to them
  • Those that play with players lower level than them

We can ignore the middle group, since they're where they belong anyway. They might climb a bit as a group, but not dramatically. Such mistakes currently can happen currently with matchmaking.

Players of high elo are worried about their peers playing with players lower elo than them. Said lower elo players would be matched with high elo players and could cause bad games for high elo players. But how many high elo players would diminish their chances of climbing higher by bringing a lower elo friend with them in ranked, instead of playing a normal game? I recon very few, unless it was on their smurf account.

On the flip side, low elo players are currently told there's nothing that can be done about the reverse, which currently happens far more frequently (and currently). Smurfs have been the bane of low elo existence for a while, skewing matches dramatically or throwing them because they don't care what happens to that account.

It's here that we've hit on the real issue. The real issue isn't premade groups of friends playing on their main accounts and getting together to play ranked, the issue is smurf accounts being made to circumvent the matchmaking rules. The difference this time around is that this change has the potential to make smurfing a greater pain point for those of higher elo than it has previously been by tying it to boosting.

LadyRenly2 votes

I'm just never going to solo, why put myself at a disadvantage compared to everyone else?

BluePolarizer1 votes

I only like to play solo or with a trusted duo. So now I'm being punished for not wanting to play in a 3/4 stack. My ranking will also be meaningless. Why should I get plat when a gold 5 can just have his diamond friends make a smurf and get him to plat too? Why should I go for diamond when a 4-stack or 5-stack can carry a high gold/low plat player to diamond?

Jbels1 votes

lol what? Integrity? Sure. Whatever you say.

You still can't play with people who are more than one tier higher than you

The Queen Viper1 votes

{quoted}

You still can't play with people who are more than one tier higher than you

With smurfs you can... and now it's even more easier.

Ranked will be the Normals 2.0.

Sukishoo1 votes

integrity?????????????????????????? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.

BluePolarizer2 votes

are you saying that you and a bronze 5 are equal in skill since rank has no integrity?

Kal Vas Flam1 votes

You're too negative. Give it a shot first.

The Queen Viper1 votes

{quoted}

Dynamic queue will destroy the integrity of ranked.

Yes, we know... but RITO doesn't give a fuk.

Shonjl1 votes

This game is basically turning into a facebook game at this point I feel, sure they may be successful, but they are retarded as hell.

All I can say is at this rate, this game will have what happened to WoW happen to them. Not die, but lose a lot of their old power. WoW used to be the god of MMOs, its still around but its just a shadow of its old self and pitiful compared to what it once was, League will be no different soon.

Dominick Destine1 votes

I hate that I am being forced to be "That guy" yet again... but having checked each person's stats in this thread that keep bashing the integrity of ranked... they're all silvers and bronzes (What a surprise, eh?).

I'm Diamond and I can tell you, once Solo Queue is replaced with Team Queue, brackets/rankings will be meaningless... and the upper brackets will only be 5 man teams since that's the only way you will ever have a chance against enemy 5 man teams.

What I want to know is; What is the purpose of removing solo queue when we already have a team queue?

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