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So lemme get this straight...

chipndip1··35 votes·34,896 views

Reds can at least give us:

"Way too swamped right at this moment, from memory she's on the Live team's list of champs they want to assess again once things quieten down a bit though."

for Zyra, but we can't have even a peep about Sona? Anything at all?

205 Comments

RiotMeddler45 votes

Some thoughts on the current state of Sona:

  1. There are a number of Sona players who find Sona unsatisfying and feel she needs to be buffed, including some players posting on Boards who've felt that way at least since her rework last year.

  2. Sona's performance in game, outside of organized professional play, is in a pretty reasonable spot, even in high Elo solo queue. She's also got a bit of the Amumu/Yi effectiveness by Elo curve going on, where she'll be pretty dominant in average games if she's a strong pick in high tier play. That matches up with her play rate, which is quite a bit higher (2-3 times on average, depending on the region) in average Elo ranges versus high Elo. That puts Sona at a pretty average play rate at most tiers of play, though does mean she's underrepresented in high tier play..

  3. Sona's got a kit design that makes it really hard for her power to be satisfying. Her power's split between spell casts that affect multiple targets, auras that can affect multiple allies and power chord effects. That means each individual effect has to be pretty weak and therefore hard to feel, let alone feel good about.

  4. Sona's got a really high reliability kit. Provided you've got at least a moderate handle on how her kit works you're going to see fairly consistent output from her. Because her lows aren't very low that also contrains our ability to give her high highs.

  5. Sona's auras are powerful ally buffing effects with a high uptime. That means if solo lane Sona's ever in a spot where she's a solid, satisfying pick duo lane Sona's almost certainly pretty overpowered (since she's able to access her full effectiveness by contrast). That issue could potentially be addressed by adding a mechanic to Sona that's only useful if she's solo laning, though that runs the risk of feeling really forced and post laning adds yet another mechanic to a kit that's already splitting its power into a lot of pieces as above.

  6. In terms of where that leaves us we could introduce some less reliable abilities and concentrate power (e.g. by removing auras, power chord or multi hit spells and in exchange buffing the remaining elements) to address points 3 and 4 above. That would lead to a drastically different Sona however. There might also be room for some small QoL or buffs, and I expect Sona will be discussed again internally after preseason follow up's on a good track (though I'm personally doubtful we've got much power to work with and simply buffing Sona until she feels good's going to set her up for a nerf).

LankPants19 votes

In terms of where that leaves us we could introduce some less reliable abilities and concentrate power (e.g. by removing auras, power chord or multi hit spells and in exchange buffing the remaining elements) to address points 3 and 4 above. That would lead to a drastically different Sona however. There might also be room for some small QoL or buffs, and I expect Sona will be discussed again internally after preseason follow up's on a good track (though I'm personally doubtful we've got much power to work with and simply buffing Sona until she feels good's going to set her up for a nerf).

How about undoing the unneeded and unjustified nerf that Sona was given at the start of the season that you guy pushed through dispite the boards, reddit and S@20 all telling you not to? It's not going to fix her, but its a good place to start and a good apology to Sona players for the complete fuck-up you made at the start of the year.

chipndip120 votes

{quoted}

Some thoughts on the current state of Sona:

  1. There are a number of Sona players who find Sona unsatisfying and feel she needs to be buffed, including some players posting on Boards who've felt that way at least since her rework last year.

  2. Sona's performance in game, outside of organized professional play, is in a pretty reasonable spot, even in high Elo solo queue. She's also got a bit of the Amumu/Yi effectiveness by Elo curve going on, where she'll be pretty dominant in average games if she's a strong pick in high tier play. That matches up with her play rate, which is quite a bit higher (2-3 times on average, depending on the region) in average Elo ranges versus high Elo. That puts Sona at a pretty average play rate at most tiers of play, though does mean she's underrepresented in high tier play..

  3. Sona's got a kit design that makes it really hard for her power to be satisfying. Her power's split between spell casts that affect multiple targets, auras that can affect multiple allies and power chord effects. That means each individual effect has to be pretty weak and therefore hard to feel, let alone feel good about.

  4. Sona's got a really high reliability kit. Provided you've got at least a moderate handle on how her kit works you're going to see fairly consistent output from her. Because her lows aren't very low that also contrains our ability to give her high highs.

  5. Sona's auras are powerful ally buffing effects with a high uptime. That means if solo lane Sona's ever in a spot where she's a solid, satisfying pick duo lane Sona's almost certainly pretty overpowered (since she's able to access her full effectiveness by contrast). That issue could potentially be addressed by adding a mechanic to Sona that's only useful if she's solo laning, though that runs the risk of feeling really forced and post laning adds yet another mechanic to a kit that's already splitting its power into a lot of pieces as above.

  6. In terms of where that leaves us we could introduce some less reliable abilities and concentrate power (e.g. by removing auras, power chord or multi hit spells and in exchange buffing the remaining elements) to address points 3 and 4 above. That would lead to a drastically different Sona however. There might also be room for some small QoL or buffs, and I expect Sona will be discussed again internally after preseason follow up's on a good track (though I'm personally doubtful we've got much power to work with and simply buffing Sona until she feels good's going to set her up for a nerf).

First off, thank you for the reply.

And for the actual response: Don't you guys think you sort of...over-nerfed Sona, though? There's a lot of points that are just off with the character.

  • She's lacking basic fundamental parts that most supports have. Primarily, she has no hard cc outside of her ult. Yea, guaranteed damage allows her to just pube-stomp lower elo players that don't properly understand punishing bad moves or taking advantage of squishier enemies, but in higher elos, there's instances where I literally have no power to stop the enemy lane from just walking all over me and my adc. Lux has a root. Morgana has a root. Karma has a root. Lulu has polymorph. Nami has a stun. Even Annie can just point-n-click someone down after a few spells with Q. Sona has even less options for saving herself or her adc than champs that don't even have the support tag. It's the same reason why Kayle doesn't even see relevant bot lane play. It makes it so that Sona can't set up a situation or diffuse a situation outside of throwing out Q's, waiting for level 6.

  • As Sona is now, the primary way people get by at higher levels of play is basically heavy ap investment with a Lich. It's pretty much the only thing that Sona can do that gives her a role that other supports can't just walk all over: guaranteed Lich procs. Seeing how she's primarily a support, it's awkward when you have to hesitate when considering building things like Locket and Frozen Heart...since as much as your team may need it, it'll make Sona herself significantly less valuable to her team.

  • Overall, her design is just...ill advised. She's extremely slow (325), extremely squishy, and extremely short-ranged with only one weak damage move outside of her ult, with no hard cc at all outside of that same ult. People have the notion that she's not interactive to play against, but it's literally quite the opposite. Playing Sona is like constantly dancing on a fine line where I could quite quickly be torn to shreds in seconds. Her effective range for her damage is 550 (since it needs the autos), and her range for her aura is 350 (causes clumping), yet there's a very noticeable lack of reward for having to be within nearly every champ's engaging/trading ranges to just...function properly. I understand her kit in and of itself has very little in the way of mechanical skill, but her overall package is very unforgiving of even slight mistakes while it requires you to constantly put your neck out in dangerous situations, yet the payout for doing this is mediocre on average UNLESS you build into a Lich Bane and heavy ap.

I don't expect anything soon (if ever), but I don't want to feel like I'm crazy when I say there's gotta be SOMETHING to make Sona a little less of a low-elo stomper and a little more of an actually decent champ. Like maybe increasing the duration of her shield to 2 seconds so it doesn't run out mid-Brand-burn? That's been a suggestion of mine for a while.

Valhaeran4 votes

Main Sona here since s3, all you said is so so true.

Pika31016 votes

{quoted}

Some thoughts on the current state of Sona:

  1. There are a number of Sona players who find Sona unsatisfying and feel she needs to be buffed, including some players posting on Boards who've felt that way at least since her rework last year.

Good, you know this. How about you stop ignoring them and speak on a level ground instead of condescending us the way you're doing right this moment.

  1. Sona's performance in game, outside of organized professional play, is in a pretty reasonable spot, even in high Elo solo queue. She's also got a bit of the Amumu/Yi effectiveness by Elo curve going on, where she'll be pretty dominant in average games if she's a strong pick in high tier play. That matches up with her play rate, which is quite a bit higher (2-3 times on average, depending on the region) in average Elo ranges versus high Elo. That puts Sona at a pretty average play rate at most tiers of play, though does mean she's underrepresented in high tier play..

I'm sorry, but I'm just going to call this what it is. Bullshit.

Out of the ~20 champions that are primarily played in the support role, Sona sits in the bottom 33% pick rate. For every 1 Sona game, there are literally 6 Thresh games and ~4 Blitzes and Morgs. That's a huge gap.

  1. Sona's got a kit design that makes it really hard for her power to be satisfying. Her power's split between spell casts that affect multiple targets, auras that can affect multiple allies and power chord effects. That means each individual effect has to be pretty weak and therefore hard to feel, let alone feel good about.

Hymn hits 2 targets, potentially. Aria only affects 1 and Celerity was reduced to 0.

She doesn't use auras anymore, are you referring to her single-use active effects? I'll just assume you are and point out that they're melee abilities. On a ranged champ. That's severely counter-intuitive.

Power Chord is very difficult to appreciate now that Rito has ruined the cooldowns on her abilities, which not only hurts the flow of her kit, but has led directly to the misconception of Staccato being the optimal choice which you've intentionally used as an excuse for repeated unjustifiable nerfs.

Sona is forced to suffer being worst-in-class in literally everything she does, but Nami, Bard, Thresh, et cetera do just as many things as her and they don't have their power split between abilities, Rito just overloads their kits for seemingly no reason, especially Thresh in particular. Why then does Rito and yourself hate Sona and purposefully discriminate her to the point that you're willing to openly lie in an obvious manner as this at the cost of your own credibility?

  1. Sona's got a really high reliability kit. Provided you've got at least a moderate handle on how her kit works you're going to see fairly consistent output from her. Because her lows aren't very low that also contrains our ability to give her high highs.

You can't control who Hymn targets, you can't control who Aria heals, wtf is reliable about spells you have no direct control over? That's like saying "Gnar's passive is difficult to control and unpredictable, something has gone wrong if he ever becomes a reliable pick." Which I point this out because that's exactly what you did say of Gnar. As for a champ being effective if you're familiar on them, that's the same bullshit excuse you used in the Evelynn thread. You didn't learn from the massive downvotes you got from that time that recycling the same propaganda won't work?

Sona has amongst the lowest lows in the game. Hell, her "highs" are already considerably low, just in general there's no point in any game that she's ever truly benefiting her own team.

  1. Sona's auras are powerful ally buffing effects with a high uptime. That means if solo lane Sona's ever in a spot where she's a solid, satisfying pick duo lane Sona's almost certainly pretty overpowered (since she's able to access her full effectiveness by contrast). That issue could potentially be addressed by adding a mechanic to Sona that's only useful if she's solo laning, though that runs the risk of feeling really forced and post laning adds yet another mechanic to a kit that's already splitting its power into a lot of pieces as above.

Sona doesn't use auras anymore, I'm not certain why you keep claiming she does. I'm just going to assume once again you're referring to her actives, although I fear this will just continue getting more confusing if you continue using improper terminology.

Sona's actives are weaker than her pre-4.13 auras. It's been proven mathematically that to break even she needs anywhere from over 1200AP for Hymn to at least more than 300 AP for at least Celerity, with Aria sitting somewhere in the middle with a wider margin of error in terms of effectiveness.

"High uptime?" Are you shitting me right now? They used to have 100% uptime, now they range from 63% on Hymn at max CDR all the way down to 12% on Celerity at the absolute worst. ASSUMING YOU CAN CONTINUE SPAMMING SPELLS AS THEY'RE NOW DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO CASTING THEM OFF-COOLDOWN. Considering she has the 3rd-lowest mana pool of mage supports, coupled with stiflingly high mana costs, this is impossible without 2 seperate mana/m-gen items.

You're intentionally keeping Sona as shit because you're afraid she'll be the next Lulu? I'm not sure excuses get any worse than that one, except maybe the win-rate excuse.

  1. In terms of where that leaves us we could introduce some less reliable abilities and concentrate power (e.g. by removing auras, power chord or multi hit spells and in exchange buffing the remaining elements) to address points 3 and 4 above. That would lead to a drastically different Sona however. There might also be room for some small QoL or buffs, and I expect Sona will be discussed again internally after preseason follow up's on a good track (though I'm personally doubtful we've got much power to work with and simply buffing Sona until she feels good's going to set her up for a nerf).

Here's an idea: scrap this piece of shit you made; that we the players told you from the very beginning was a terrible idea; go back to her original kit and start at scratch from there. ...and for the love of everything that's good in this world, please don't let Fearless touch her in that new rework. How many mistakes is he going to be allowed to make without consequence? Sona... the pre-season 5 jungle... if I never hear his name again, it'll be too soon.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ZIwweXqL-the-state-of-sona-mk-2

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/nVF6Es62-so-when-can-the-community-stop-kidding-itself-and-admit-sona-was-way-way-overnerfed

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2n8M8JVj-riot-fearless-what-was-sona-made-for

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TlhTtBFm,comment-id=000400010000000000000001000000000000000100010002,timestamp=2015-11-05T21:19:07.406+0000)

Here's the full list of nerfs in patch 4.13:

  1. Base AD
  2. Base HP
  3. Staccato dmg
  4. Staccato CD
  5. Diminuendo CD
  6. Tempo CD
  7. Hymn base dmg
  8. Hymn CD
  9. Hymn aura removed
  10. Hymn active spell range
  11. Hymn secondary active spell range
  12. Hymn secondary active dmg
  13. Aria base heal
  14. Aria CD
  15. Aria aura removed
  16. Aria secondary active mitigation
  17. Aria secondary active duration
  18. Aria secondary active spell range
  19. Aria mana cost
  20. Celerity CD
  21. Celerity aura removed
  22. Celerity active spell range
  23. Aria heal scaling
  24. Crescendo width
  25. Crescendo range
Slamurai Jack17 votes

{quoted}

Good, you know this. How about you stop ignoring them and speak on a level ground instead of condescending us the way you're doing right this moment.

I'm sorry, but I'm just going to call this what it is. Bullshit.

Sona is forced to suffer being worst-in-class in literally everything she does, but Nami, Bard, Thresh, et cetera do just as many things as her and they don't have their power split between abilities, Rito just overloads their kits for seemingly no reason, especially Thresh in particular. Why then does Rito and yourself hate Sona and purposefully discriminate her to the point that you're willing to openly lie in an obvious manner as this at the cost of your own credibility?

You're intentionally keeping Sona as shit because you're afraid she'll be the next Lulu? I'm not sure excuses get any worse than that one, except maybe the win-rate excuse.

Here's an idea: scrap this piece of shit you made; that we the players told you from the very beginning was a terrible idea; go back to her original kit and start at scratch from there. ...and for the love of everything that's good in this world, please don't let Fearless touch her in that new rework. How many mistakes is he going to be allowed to make without consequence? Sona... the pre-season 5 jungle... if I never hear his name again, it'll be too soon.

I can't imagine why Rioters don't drop in here more often.

Chaotic Sage15 votes

Yes let's just attack the Rioter that finally responded. That a great plan to get anything you'd like ever.

Pika31016 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chaotic Sage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxbfyvO,comment-id=000800030001,timestamp=2015-11-09T09:38:47.611+0000)

Yes let's just attack the Rioter that finally responded. That a great plan to get anything you'd like ever.

He should've responded sooner, it's his own fault for waiting 16 months before trying to conversate. A lot of hate and frustration can build up in a year and a third.

My anger is righteous and justifiable. I stand by it and everyone else's.

Cronovey12 votes

No, it is obscene and childish while being targeted at someone who came in to give you assistance with concerns.

If I were Meddler, I'd back out of this thread and completely ignore anything I saw created on the boards by anyone in here who constantly berated and accused them of totally ruining a fictional character.

Pika31012 votes

{quoted}

No, it is obscene and childish while being targeted at someone who came in to give you assistance with concerns.

If I were Meddler, I'd back out of this thread and completely ignore anything I saw created on the boards by anyone in here who constantly berated and accused them of totally ruining a fictional character.

Hypocrisy of this post aside...

We asked for a Ritoer to came in and listen objectively. What Meddler did was feed us a load, blindly deny every complaint and then give half of an excuse. Completely condescending.

Where's the conversation? He's got like a dozen replies, it's time to start answering them.

Xonra32 votes

{quoted}

Some thoughts on the current state of Sona:

  1. There are a number of Sona players who find Sona unsatisfying and feel she needs to be buffed, including some players posting on Boards who've felt that way at least since her rework last year.

I'm in that category. I played like 75% Sona in season 3. I have played her maybe 12 games in the following 2 seasons after you guys changed her, because she is no longer enjoyable to me.

  1. Sona's performance in game, outside of organized professional play, is in a pretty reasonable spot, even in high Elo solo queue. She's also got a bit of the Amumu/Yi effectiveness by Elo curve going on, where she'll be pretty dominant in average games if she's a strong pick in high tier play. That matches up with her play rate, which is quite a bit higher (2-3 times on average, depending on the region) in average Elo ranges versus high Elo. That puts Sona at a pretty average play rate at most tiers of play, though does mean she's underrepresented in high tier play.

The higher tiers play her less because people position better and make her poke harder to pull off, making her an ult bot, because her heal is not in any way mana efficient, and you have to get far too much AP, which you simply won't get as a support in higher tiers. Only picked more the lower you go because people have bad positioning to allow her to poke easier, and people do stuff like, skip sightstone to get rod of ages, etc.

  1. Sona's got a kit design that makes it really hard for her power to be satisfying. Her power's split between spell casts that affect multiple targets, auras that can affect multiple allies and power chord effects. That means each individual effect has to be pretty weak and therefore hard to feel, let alone feel good about.

Honestly nothing about her entire kit is satisfying currently. The auras are barely noticeable in reality, her heal is not very good, her speed boost I would never even level in a game if I had the option it is so bad, so basically she turns into a heal and ult bot, with lackluster auras.

  1. Sona's got a really high reliability kit. Provided you've got at least a moderate handle on how her kit works you're going to see fairly consistent output from her. Because her lows aren't very low that also contrains our ability to give her high highs.

No, Sona has a really high reliability Q and R. You are going to poke people with Q or stun people with R. The other two abilities are far from reliable as they fall off hard after laning phase without LOTS of ap (which says something because E is near pointless in lane). I would also disagree with her lows not being low, because her lows are running out of mana, which is very easy to do if you are using heal consistently with a not very good ADC.

  1. Sona's auras are powerful ally buffing effects with a high uptime. That means if solo lane Sona's ever in a spot where she's a solid, satisfying pick duo lane Sona's almost certainly pretty overpowered (since she's able to access her full effectiveness by contrast). That issue could potentially be addressed by adding a mechanic to Sona that's only useful if she's solo laning, though that runs the risk of feeling really forced and post laning adds yet another mechanic to a kit that's already splitting its power into a lot of pieces as above.

Sona's auras don't FEEL powerful is the issue. They felt powerful before her bad (subjectives I know, but I played a lot of her before to compare) rework, but now you can't tell they do anything without 2+ people around, and even then they are usually running FROM you towards something, so your terrible ranged auras don't hit people except momentarily in passing. The auras were gated so badly by their range, it would almost be better to remove them at this point and properly buff her abilities properly (I mean, her identity was already watered down and broke by the "it's fine Supports will just get more AP" mess, on top of her rework). Her aura "power" takes a lot of her budget it seems, and they are poor at best in real scenarios, that they have been hindering her all season against supports who don't have such a glaring weakness.

  1. In terms of where that leaves us we could introduce some less reliable abilities and concentrate power (e.g. by removing auras, power chord or multi hit spells and in exchange buffing the remaining elements) to address points 3 and 4 above. That would lead to a drastically different Sona however. There might also be room for some small QoL or buffs, and I expect Sona will be discussed again internally after preseason follow up's on a good track (though I'm personally doubtful we've got much power to work with and simply buffing Sona until she feels good's going to set her up for a nerf).

Honestly the main problems Sona has all stem from the "rework" which realistically wasn't a rework as much as a complete nerf except to her Q.

  • She needs her range back on her auras (as well as them being permanent to be quite frank, because you guys butchered her auras something fierce, for little real exchange).
  • She needs her Q damage LOWERED significantly (yes I said lowered), and the scaling raised, so she would be forced to need more AP, but rewarded for doing so, keeping her from being so frustrating to people as a support.
  • She needs the base on her heal raised to compensate for her Q lowering, but don't touch the scaling. The base healing just needs to be raised OR the mana cost needs to come down.
  • Her E is a lost cause, because it is terrible at all points of the game, and even a solo lane Sona with AP still has a terrible E. It feels like the old Ashe hawkshot, where if you have it, fine, but you won't ever level it until you have to because it doesn't feel like it does anything outside of being a gimmick put in for lack of a better idea.
  • Her ult is fine, but if you had to power budget, remove the damage from it entirely, and slightly increase the width. It doesn't need damage scaling at all as it is used for the stun anyways, not the damage. Remove the damage and I'd be fine if that means the power can be moved elsewhere.
  • I don't know what else to really do with her auras aside from change them back to what they were. It felt like her "Thing" before, now the new auras feel shoehorned in just to keep them, and that feels very unsatisfying. With the way her auras work, sadly there just isn't any way to make them feel good without buffing them to a broken state, and no one wants that.
Sneak Dog12 votes

She needs her range back on her auras (as well as them being permanent to be quite frank, because you guys butchered her auras something fierce, for little real exchange).

Auras are hard to feel the power of, yet you want more of her power budget into them? Riot made the auras more interactive, as far as auras go, to increase the feel you have for using them and it's still hard to appreciate.

Making large permanent auras is not a good option. It'll just mean she'll be balanced around her buffing 3 allies at all times and her playstyle will be to just stand in the middle of her team. On top of that she probably won't even notice the insane amounts of work her auras are doing.

I don't know what you should do with them, but this just doesn't seem like a good option at all. There was a reason why Riot moved away from it.

Xonra20 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxbfyvO,comment-id=000800050000,timestamp=2015-11-09T10:42:38.636+0000)

Auras are hard to feel the power of, yet you want more of her power budget into them? Riot made the auras more interactive, as far as auras go, to increase the feel you have for using them and it's still hard to appreciate.

Making large permanent auras is not a good option. It'll just mean she'll be balanced around her buffing 3 allies at all times and her playstyle will be to just stand in the middle of her team. On top of that she probably won't even notice the insane amounts of work her auras are doing.

I don't know what you should do with them, but this just doesn't seem like a good option at all. There was a reason why Riot moved away from it.

No her CURRENT auras are hard to feel the power of.

They have terribly short range and a very short up time unless x is met to extend that time (usually more than 1 person because hit by them to further extend the time, which simply doesn't happen in lane).

They didn't just make the auraus more interactive as much as they made them a frustrating (For the Sona) mini-game to make them "feel more satisfying to the player", which they did the opposite of, as someone who played a lot of Sona before.

Making them like they are would be a fine option, despite understanding why Riot didn't and doesn't like them. The fact remains there is no other way to make the auras specifically feel good again. They are easily the most frustrating part of her kit outside of her pointless E, and they are simply further frustrating because they waste her "power budget" for no real gain, and take away from the good parts of her kit.

They are there for no other reason than to keep her feeling like Sona to throw people a bone, because they are not actually significant to her kit anymore at all, and that is the worst part about them, compared to them being her whole shtick before.

Sneak Dog10 votes

What benefits would you give the auras that would be statisfying yet not op though? Especially if you make them large and permanent? How would you make auras statisfying in a duolane but not op in a grouped team?

Auras have issues. They're passive, hard to appreciate (because giving 20 armor to everyone is hard to notice but amazing), insanely strong in grouped teams, weak when solo or even duo, have little to no play/counterplay attached to them.

Sona is an aura-support, so she has all these issues inherently. If she'd just be pure auras, all she'd had to do is stand in the middle of her team and she'd be winning games. Riot made her auras a bit less like the standard aura to try to resolve some of the issues. I don't see you addressing these issues though.

Xonra16 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxbfyvO,comment-id=00080005000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T11:14:51.281+0000)

What benefits would you give the auras that would be statisfying yet not op though? Especially if you make them large and permanent? How would you make auras statisfying in a duolane but not op in a grouped team?

Auras have issues. They're passive, hard to appreciate (because giving 20 armor to everyone is hard to notice but amazing), insanely strong in grouped teams, weak when solo or even duo, have little to no play/counterplay attached to them.

Sona is an aura-support, so she has all these issues inherently. If she'd just be pure auras, all she'd had to do is stand in the middle of her team and she'd be winning games. Riot made her auras a bit less like the standard aura to try to resolve some of the issues. I don't see you addressing these issues though.

I honestly don't have a good answer to that question if you want me to be blunt. I don't think there is currently a clear answer to that question at all, which is also Riot's issue, because they made a mistake that is far too late to turn back, because it WOULD be broken if her aura's were simply reverted to the old way, with her current kit setup.

The problem is, they created Sona to function a specific way, and balanced it around her auras, etc. They then decided they didn't like it, and drastically changed the auras, but didn't drastically change everything else, which in turn was simply a nerf to the auras without an equal buff to everything else (or at least an equal change).

They significantly lowered the auras range, power, and up time. The fact is, the only positive solution for her currently is to revert everything, as she was in no need of a rework. All that changing her auras did was make her even harder to properly balance around them. Nerf them at all, and they become more useless than they are. Buff them, and they start to become awkward in a strong way. There is no good middle ground because of the way they changed them. Before they had to just lower power, but refused to. Currently they already are a stapled on part of her kit instead of her kit being balanced around them.

She WAS an aura support, she ISN'T currently an aura support. She is a poke mage with healing and utility that just happens to have auras. She lost the aura identity as her core schtick when they nerfed them with the rework to turn them into a mini game that no one that played Sona liked, and only a handful of people that never played her before thought was neat.

Also I'm addressing the issues pretty much directly, you just aren't liking how I'm addressing them. There is a difference.

Sneak Dog10 votes

Also I'm addressing the issues pretty much directly, you just aren't liking how I'm addressing them. There is a difference.

You're addressing Sonas issues by wanting to turn her back into a standard aura champion. You seem to be ignoring the issues with your solution though, namely the issues with auras.

The fact is, the only positive solution for her currently is to revert everything, as she was in no need of a rework.

I think she was in need of a rework. She was just giving out ad/ap, armor/mr in a 1000 range. She was encouraged to ult, then sit back and let allies benefit of these auras and win the fight, doing a bit of peeling/healing from the backline. However, as Sona you just can't know of how much benefit the stats you're giving out actually are, because the benefits are hard to notice and spread out over a significant amount of time. Auras are not statisfying compared to the power they have.

The rework attempted to address this issue directly by giving the auras noticeable effects (a burst of damage, a visible shield). The rework might not have turned out amazingly well, but the old kit wasn't very healthy either.

Xonra14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxbfyvO,comment-id=0008000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T12:05:14.475+0000)

You're addressing Sonas issues by wanting to turn her back into a standard aura champion. You seem to be ignoring the issues with your solution though, namely the issues with auras.

I actually stated that I don't have an answer or solution, because with the current kit and way the auras work, there is no proper solution to the problem. Riot created the problem and they can't fix it, so as someone who doesn't even have the tools and knowledge they have about the champion they created, what more information can I really give? All I know is, her current kit doesn't work right (specifically regarding the auras) and her old kit did (again specifically regarding the auras, and how things balanced around it). So my only conclusion I can personally come to is, her old kit was better (my opinion, not stating as fact, just from my own personal conclusion), and reverting the changes would improve the situation.

I think she was in need of a rework.

You are one of 30 (obvious exaggeration). She was fine before, and the fact is, her rework made her a watered down version of what she was, so it didn't actually fix anything, but just caused more problems balance wise.

She was just giving out ad/ap, armor/mr in a 1000 range. She was encouraged to ult, then sit back and let allies benefit of these auras and win the fight, doing a bit of peeling/healing from the backline. However, as Sona you just can't know of how much benefit the stats you're giving out actually are, because the benefits are hard to notice and spread out over a significant amount of time.

I'm not sure that is much better than actually knowing for a fact you are making no impact or benefit by the fact your aura isn't up at all (and the cooldowns on the abilities are terrible in comparison to what they were, but that is a different subject entirely). The problem now is, you know for sure you aren't benefiting, and you STILL don't see the impact her auras give when they are up, so it is the same problem, but stapling on a new problem.

Auras are not statisfying compared to the power they have. They were satisfying to me, because that was her intended playstyle as a champion. She isn't satisfying now because they didn't rework her to be a champion not using aurtas, and her auras aren't as good as they were, which not only breaks her theme, but breaks her balance.

The rework attempted to address this issue directly by giving the auras noticeable effects (a burst of damage, a visible shield). The rework might not have turned out amazingly well, but the old kit wasn't very healthy either.

They gave them visually noticeable effects that are worse. the "burst of damage" isn't noticeable, I'm sorry to say, plus the fact you have to stand on someone to give it to them. The shield is decent and visual, I'll give you that one at least, but it is lackluster and doesn't feel good using it, as it is more a side note of the heal, than an actual shield.

I thought the old kit was healthy, but I feel the new was is just a mess of stapled together ideas to try to "fix" problems Riot had, but caused more issues she didn't have, while keeping old issues, and annoying people.

Nothing about the rework was positive in my opinion. I find every change to have made her a worse champion overall.

turkeyBACON2 votes

Out of curiosity, how would you feel if they removed her E's Song of Celerity and changed it to a "stance" changer. I'm thinking between "Ensemble" stance where she functions pretty much as she does now, but Q becomes a more team utility spell like a movement and attack speed boost proc on hit. "Solo" stance removes the auras and just folds in all the spread out power budget into powerful single Q nuke and W shield and heal. Ensemble for reliability and team support while Solo is for the "Big LCS plays".

Edit: alternatively, Solo could work as a "window of power" mode where you activate it to boost/alter your abilities for a short while and then it goes on cooldown. That might be more appealing as then you'd have to play smart and choose when to activate it for the most benefit.

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

Out of curiosity, how would you feel if they removed her E's Song of Celerity and changed it to a "stance" changer. I'm thinking between "Ensemble" stance where she functions pretty much as she does now, but Q becomes a more team utility spell like a movement and attack speed boost proc on hit. "Solo" stance removes the auras and just folds in all the spread out power budget into powerful single Q nuke and W shield and heal. Ensemble for reliability and team support while Solo is for the "Big LCS plays".

Edit: alternatively, Solo could work as a "window of power" mode where you activate it to boost/alter your abilities for a short while and then it goes on cooldown. That might be more appealing as then you'd have to play smart and choose when to activate it for the most benefit.

The issue is that since she has no means of defending herself and she's currently in the lowest speed tier, removing that lousy speed buff is actually very problematic for her kit overall, although this was almost a really good idea.

Phoenix Kotori 10 votes

Sona's got a really high reliability kit. Provided you've got at least a moderate handle on how her kit works you're going to see fairly consistent output from her. Because her lows aren't very low that also contrains our ability to give her high highs.

Doesn't her squishness and kit that punishes her for not going AP, mean she does have a VERY LOW when she gets bursted out repeatedly.

Jesus is Savior12 votes

{quoted}

Some thoughts on the current state of Sona:

  1. There are a number of Sona players who find Sona unsatisfying and feel she needs to be buffed, including some players posting on Boards who've felt that way at least since her rework last year.

  2. Sona's performance in game, outside of organized professional play, is in a pretty reasonable spot, even in high Elo solo queue. She's also got a bit of the Amumu/Yi effectiveness by Elo curve going on, where she'll be pretty dominant in average games if she's a strong pick in high tier play. That matches up with her play rate, which is quite a bit higher (2-3 times on average, depending on the region) in average Elo ranges versus high Elo. That puts Sona at a pretty average play rate at most tiers of play, though does mean she's underrepresented in high tier play..

  3. Sona's got a kit design that makes it really hard for her power to be satisfying. Her power's split between spell casts that affect multiple targets, auras that can affect multiple allies and power chord effects. That means each individual effect has to be pretty weak and therefore hard to feel, let alone feel good about.

  4. Sona's got a really high reliability kit. Provided you've got at least a moderate handle on how her kit works you're going to see fairly consistent output from her. Because her lows aren't very low that also contrains our ability to give her high highs.

  5. Sona's auras are powerful ally buffing effects with a high uptime. That means if solo lane Sona's ever in a spot where she's a solid, satisfying pick duo lane Sona's almost certainly pretty overpowered (since she's able to access her full effectiveness by contrast). That issue could potentially be addressed by adding a mechanic to Sona that's only useful if she's solo laning, though that runs the risk of feeling really forced and post laning adds yet another mechanic to a kit that's already splitting its power into a lot of pieces as above.

  6. In terms of where that leaves us we could introduce some less reliable abilities and concentrate power (e.g. by removing auras, power chord or multi hit spells and in exchange buffing the remaining elements) to address points 3 and 4 above. That would lead to a drastically different Sona however. There might also be room for some small QoL or buffs, and I expect Sona will be discussed again internally after preseason follow up's on a good track (though I'm personally doubtful we've got much power to work with and simply buffing Sona until she feels good's going to set her up for a nerf).

tl;dr the rework didn't work, and you should have left her alone, cuz she has the same problems she always had?

AWildAPKalista23 votes

{quoted} 6. (though I'm personally doubtful we've got much power to work with and simply buffing Sona until she feels good's going to set her up for a nerf).

Out of all the shit you said, this is by-far the hardest thing to believe, which is saying a lot since your entire post was blatant fabrication.

After the nerfs in patch 3.14 Sona became a sub-par champion, considered a weak copy of Nami. This means her power budget at that point had already opened up, if at least just for a tiny buff.

Contrary to that, 4.13 introduced a series of more than 2-dozen simultaneous nerfs of varying severity across just about every last inch of her kit and stats. Including close to half a dozen shadow nerfs(that have thus-far been confirmed) that you Ritoers kept completely hidden to us for a very long time, only revealing them to us by accident and slip-of-tongue. Who knows if there are even more? I doubt you're willing to be honest with us about them.

Back on track, even after a couple dozen nerfs in patch 4.13, you decided she still wasn't quite weak enough and proceeded to inflict 6 more documented nerfs and at least 1 additional shadow nerf has been confirmed. Yet in the entire 16 months since then and now, Sona hasn't had a single compensation made to her for literally over 30 nerfs.

Fact of the matter is: Sona has the largest unspent budget out of any champion in the entire game, by a landslide. Claiming otherwise is the most laughable thing I've heard in a very very long time.

ApoTheAnswer10 votes

I loved the old Sona. After the rework...she lacks something, I find her boring and actually I don't play her except for arams. She was good and no one was asking for a change, the rework happened because "invisible auras are not satisfying" but after all this time I still think the old Sona was way more satisfying and fun to play.

BastionKross11 votes

Sona's got a really high reliability kit. Provided you've got at least a moderate handle on how her kit works you're going to see fairly consistent output from her. Because her lows aren't very low that also contrains our ability to give her high highs.

I disagree with your opinion here. Sona's abilities are auto-target, that's true. But at the same time she can't use them nearly as freely as a lot of other champs due to her mana issues; and the short range of her auras forces her to get quite close to enemies, which could very easily be a death sentence (sometimes literally Thresh) on someone as squishy as Sona.

I think she definitely has low lows, running OOM because you couldn't budget your heavy mana costs or getting blown up the second you step out of position are definitely times where you demonstrate that you lack skills to play Sona at a higher level. Conversely, like you mentioned, there's really no opportunity for a players to have high highs with her. You can flash ult... and that's it.

If you don't feel comfortable giving her high highs, at least buff aspects of her kit to remove her low lows. They most certainly do exist, and are very punishing.

Dominick Destine8 votes

{quoted} 2. That puts Sona at a pretty average play rate at most tiers of play, though does mean she's underrepresented in high tier play..

She's not "underrepresented" , she's underpowered because she's garbage.

Are you really trying to sell us that because the lowest levels of play, scrubs, can do decently with Sona against other scrubs, she is in a good position?

Auras

Sona does not have auras, she has not a single aura... her auras were all removed. Auras are persistent, her current skillset is not persistent. You grossly misunderstand and/or misrepresent the character you are currently talking about.

Bad job, Riot.

Van Grants9 votes

{quoted} though that runs the risk of feeling really forced and post laning adds yet another mechanic to a kit that's already splitting its power into a lot of pieces as above.

Since when has Riot cared about things feeling forced? Does Mordekaiser ring any bells?

Solbane Suzumiya7 votes

{quoted}

Some thoughts on the current state of Sona:

  1. There are a number of Sona players who find Sona unsatisfying and feel she needs to be buffed, including some players posting on Boards who've felt that way at least since her rework last year.

  2. Sona's performance in game, outside of organized professional play, is in a pretty reasonable spot, even in high Elo solo queue. She's also got a bit of the Amumu/Yi effectiveness by Elo curve going on, where she'll be pretty dominant in average games if she's a strong pick in high tier play. That matches up with her play rate, which is quite a bit higher (2-3 times on average, depending on the region) in average Elo ranges versus high Elo. That puts Sona at a pretty average play rate at most tiers of play, though does mean she's underrepresented in high tier play..

  3. Sona's got a kit design that makes it really hard for her power to be satisfying. Her power's split between spell casts that affect multiple targets, auras that can affect multiple allies and power chord effects. That means each individual effect has to be pretty weak and therefore hard to feel, let alone feel good about.

  4. Sona's got a really high reliability kit. Provided you've got at least a moderate handle on how her kit works you're going to see fairly consistent output from her. Because her lows aren't very low that also contrains our ability to give her high highs.

  5. Sona's auras are powerful ally buffing effects with a high uptime. That means if solo lane Sona's ever in a spot where she's a solid, satisfying pick duo lane Sona's almost certainly pretty overpowered (since she's able to access her full effectiveness by contrast). That issue could potentially be addressed by adding a mechanic to Sona that's only useful if she's solo laning, though that runs the risk of feeling really forced and post laning adds yet another mechanic to a kit that's already splitting its power into a lot of pieces as above.

  6. In terms of where that leaves us we could introduce some less reliable abilities and concentrate power (e.g. by removing auras, power chord or multi hit spells and in exchange buffing the remaining elements) to address points 3 and 4 above. That would lead to a drastically different Sona however. There might also be room for some small QoL or buffs, and I expect Sona will be discussed again internally after preseason follow up's on a good track (though I'm personally doubtful we've got much power to work with and simply buffing Sona until she feels good's going to set her up for a nerf).

Meddler, I do not mean any disrespect, but I feel that several of your points are invalid. If we were talking about the Sona that existed back in June 2014 and further back, then I would agree with most of what you said. However, I can't help but disagree with "Sona's auras are powerful ally buffing effects with a high uptime". Post rework, the biggest complaint I've heard from various Sona players is about her new auras feeling nowhere near as impactful, and that her cooldowns feel too long. With her rework in July, you basically made Sona an infinitely worse champion just because she appeared in pro play once. She lost an AD/AP aura for a short duration aura for on hit magic damage, which most mages and AP assassins like LeBlanc won't make much use of. She then lost an Armor/MR aura for a shield that shields too weak and has too long of a downtime to matter much. Her powerchords, while remaining similar to before, don't feel nearly as impactful as playing any other support, as I could just stun or silence them with pratically any other support, without using my ultimate. The two biggest issues I see with Sona right now is how reliable her kit is, and how spread out her "strengths" are.

Champions with reliable kits end up in one of three states: They are either underwhelming, blatantly broken, or they are gated by requiring core items before they become more relevant. Irelia and Jax with triforce are a good example of the third one, as their kits are fairly straightforward with a lot of value, but they don't hit their stride too well unless they grab Triforce. The balancing issue this makes for having this level of reliability and consistency on a support is because their first ~4k gold goes into a support item for ~2200, ~800 for sightstone, and ~800-1000 for boots. If a support is spending a triforce's worth of gold without getting much personal gain to their skills and kit for it, then they're left in a position where they can only be underpowered or broken. Even if Sona were to become good by rushing lichbane, that's still 3000 gold on a support budget before you get sightstone, assuming you don't buy any wards. So while this may improve Sona's combat stats, she loses vision for her team which in turn makes her underwhelming as she has to lose out on supporting utility (wards) to be relevant in lane. One other issue with this is that Sona is the only support who singlehandedly has next to no way of dealing with ganks, her only method being deep wards and running at the sight of trouble. Her E isn't strong enough as a one point wonder to escape a gank, and her only crowd control is her ultimate, which is a waste to burn such a strong ultimate to escape every time you get ganked, especially since every other support has non-ultimate means to deal with a gank.

The next issue is how spread out her strengths are. It's like Sona's a piece of gear in a game with a lot of tiny stats: It's not good at anything. Imagine having a weapon in an MMO that has stats like this: 16-18 damage, +12 hp, +20 mana, +1 mana/sec, +2 armor, +2% lifesteal, +1 vision radius, 10% damage to undead. Compare that to the likes of a weapon that's just 70-80 damage. All the tiny bits of stats here and there would be good in theory if every single stat wasn't near negligible. Other supports like Bard, Thresh, Nami, Leona, etc have innate strength in their kit with crowd control, non-item scaling, and/or stat steroids. They can build a lot more utility based items like Locket, Frozen Heart, etc without their skills becoming irrelevant because they have the added effects. They're more on par with the 70-80 damage weapon, because no matter what, their skills will always be strong. Meanwhile, Sona is stuck in a place where you either go full AP, losing out on a lot of utility items for your team, or you go full support, and Q and W start to feel nowhere near as impactful mid and late game, or you make some hybrid, and end up mediocre at both. The only way I feel that Sona can be made into more than a meme about being a fourth caster minion in a wave is if she gets another rework that adds more counterplay to her kit, so her numbers can feel more impactful and she can have better ways to be balanced. I've contemplated several ways to rework her, adding depth, counterplay, and the ability to make plays and help teammates without being close enough to be AoE nuked, and I would be glad to share some ideas if you wanted me to.

I sincerely hope to get a reply from you, as I'm sure other dissatisfied Sona players would agree with me that SOMETHING needs to be done.

Atuko4 votes

{quoted}

Some thoughts on the current state of Sona:

  1. There are a number of Sona players who find Sona unsatisfying and feel she needs to be buffed, including some players posting on Boards who've felt that way at least since her rework last year.

  2. Sona's performance in game, outside of organized professional play, is in a pretty reasonable spot, even in high Elo solo queue. She's also got a bit of the Amumu/Yi effectiveness by Elo curve going on, where she'll be pretty dominant in average games if she's a strong pick in high tier play. That matches up with her play rate, which is quite a bit higher (2-3 times on average, depending on the region) in average Elo ranges versus high Elo. That puts Sona at a pretty average play rate at most tiers of play, though does mean she's underrepresented in high tier play..

  3. Sona's got a kit design that makes it really hard for her power to be satisfying. Her power's split between spell casts that affect multiple targets, auras that can affect multiple allies and power chord effects. That means each individual effect has to be pretty weak and therefore hard to feel, let alone feel good about.

  4. Sona's got a really high reliability kit. Provided you've got at least a moderate handle on how her kit works you're going to see fairly consistent output from her. Because her lows aren't very low that also contrains our ability to give her high highs.

  5. Sona's auras are powerful ally buffing effects with a high uptime. That means if solo lane Sona's ever in a spot where she's a solid, satisfying pick duo lane Sona's almost certainly pretty overpowered (since she's able to access her full effectiveness by contrast). That issue could potentially be addressed by adding a mechanic to Sona that's only useful if she's solo laning, though that runs the risk of feeling really forced and post laning adds yet another mechanic to a kit that's already splitting its power into a lot of pieces as above.

  6. In terms of where that leaves us we could introduce some less reliable abilities and concentrate power (e.g. by removing auras, power chord or multi hit spells and in exchange buffing the remaining elements) to address points 3 and 4 above. That would lead to a drastically different Sona however. There might also be room for some small QoL or buffs, and I expect Sona will be discussed again internally after preseason follow up's on a good track (though I'm personally doubtful we've got much power to work with and simply buffing Sona until she feels good's going to set her up for a nerf).

I'd really like to chime in,

  • Sona currently feels like a poke bot, due to the fact that her utility spells feel so underwhelming (W and E both feel quite underwhelming)
  • Sona's kit currently relys WAY too much on AP for her to be relevant, and in general, so she feels really bad when you get behind and doesnt feel like she can make an impact, building full traditional support on her is currently a crutch due to the fact that she needs so much AP to be relevant
  • Her W shield length is quite short and her W and E power chords feel quite underwhelming, and maybe give the power chords more noticable particles on enemies so that it's more apparent that they are being debuffed? The current particle isn't really doing it
  • Of course, with her rework, her identity as an "aura" champion is lacking. When I think of an aura, I think of something consistant, and Sona's "touch your ally with this circle one time" doesn't really fufill that fantasy, like you don't even get a reward for keeping your allies in the circle, you just touch them once with it and it's done. At some point, I'd really like for Riot to bring back Sona's old kit and modernize it so that it fits todays standards and so that it's not so invisible. And also, I'm sure most Sona players wouldn't mind making her more difficult or more complex if it meant bringing back the power she lost with her rework, I sure wouldn't mind (as suggested by the community, a rhythm mechanic maybe?)

I've suggested this simple change to Sona's Q aura effect a few times

Active: Sona sends out two bolts of sound that deal magic damage to the nearest enemies, prioritizing champions. Magic Damage: 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+ 50% AP) Aura: Sona and tagged allied champions deal bonus magic damage on their next basic attack within 3 seconds

Make it to :

Active: Sona sends out two bolts of sound that deal magic damage to the nearest enemies, prioritizing champions. Magic Damage: 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+ 50% AP) Aura: Sona and tagged allied champions deal bonus magic damage on their next basic attack **OR ABILITY **within 3 seconds

So that way, the abilities aura effect will actually be useful on anyone else that isn't an ADC, and the ability will actually be used for things other than poke and feel more impactful, her Q aura effect currently feels useless to use on mages and such due to it only effecting auto-attacks, this change will actually make it feel impactful to use later in the game when you're not just laning, and champions that primarily use abilities for their damage can actually benefit from the Q aura effect

(the damage on her Q, her poke, doesn't need to be buffed at all, her poke is the only decent thing about her at the moment, by the way)

She just....feels lacking, mostly in the utility department, and she's currently just a shadow of her former self. She lost a lot of power with her rework and her identity was scrapped along with it. I just want her fantasy as the aura champion to be fufilled and for some of the power she lost with her rework to come back. I wouldn't mind at all if you guys made Sona more difficult or complex, but please give her back the power. She was nerfed with the rework and then nerf multiple times after that

Sorry if this post doesn't flow too well, I'm just trying to put all my thoughts together

GigglingAngel3 votes

{quoted}

Some thoughts on the current state of Sona:

  1. There are a number of Sona players who find Sona unsatisfying and feel she needs to be buffed, including some players posting on Boards who've felt that way at least since her rework last year.

You've spread her power budget too far/wide, causing her overall effectiveness to be way too thin. She does not excel at anything. She's barely decent as a poke support in early game, and even that is becoming less viable. Her healing is complete trash, especially for the cost. Her speed buff is laughable. Her "auras" are negligible, at best. her base stats are a joke, and really ... She's just overall "meh".

  1. Sona's performance in game, outside of organized professional play, is in a pretty reasonable spot, even in high Elo solo queue. She's also got a bit of the Amumu/Yi effectiveness by Elo curve going on, where she'll be pretty dominant in average games if she's a strong pick in high tier play. That matches up with her play rate, which is quite a bit higher (2-3 times on average, depending on the region) in average Elo ranges versus high Elo. That puts Sona at a pretty average play rate at most tiers of play, though does mean she's underrepresented in high tier play..

She's only useful if she's a counterpick against other team comps. If she's picked first, she's deadweight trash. At least for other supports, they have other things going for them.

  1. Sona's got a kit design that makes it really hard for her power to be satisfying. Her power's split between spell casts that affect multiple targets, auras that can affect multiple allies and power chord effects. That means each individual effect has to be pretty weak and therefore hard to feel, let alone feel good about.

This is what I was talking about, before. There are far better ways to go about her power budget than making every single aspect incredibly dull. Take the damage out of her ult. Her ult doesn't need damage, it just needs the CC and passive. Put some of that power into her other skills, to make them worth using for more than just charging her power chord.

  1. Sona's got a really high reliability kit. Provided you've got at least a moderate handle on how her kit works you're going to see fairly consistent output from her. Because her lows aren't very low that also contrains our ability to give her high highs.

  2. Sona's auras are powerful ally buffing effects with a high uptime. That means if solo lane Sona's ever in a spot where she's a solid, satisfying pick duo lane Sona's almost certainly pretty overpowered (since she's able to access her full effectiveness by contrast). That issue could potentially be addressed by adding a mechanic to Sona that's only useful if she's solo laning, though that runs the risk of feeling really forced and post laning adds yet another mechanic to a kit that's already splitting its power into a lot of pieces as above.

Now you're bullshitting. Her auras are NOT powerful buffing effects. They are rather situation, at best. Specifically for her heal, it's just an excuse to make the mana cost higher.

  1. In terms of where that leaves us we could introduce some less reliable abilities and concentrate power (e.g. by removing auras, power chord or multi hit spells and in exchange buffing the remaining elements) to address points 3 and 4 above. That would lead to a drastically different Sona however. There might also be room for some small QoL or buffs, and I expect Sona will be discussed again internally after preseason follow up's on a good track (though I'm personally doubtful we've got much power to work with and simply buffing Sona until she feels good's going to set her up for a nerf).

OOOOR, like I said, you could remove her damage from her ult. It doesn't it need it, at all. That power could easily go towards other skills, by either making her heals or speed buff actually be note-worthy (I'd love an excuse to rank E before Q). Or hell, instead of doing damage, you could make it so her ult stuns for a bit longer or slows after the stun is gone.

There are plenty of ways to help Sona feel better. You guys just don't want to do it, plain and simple.

Hellioning3 votes

Is 'get jumped on and die because you have low range for a support' not a low enough low for you?

Emmy Cha0s3 votes

If you actually believe a single word of what you said here, then I have a bridge I need to sell you.

Archon X5 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Sona/Support

Sona has a 51.78% winrate in plat+ games, ranked 9th among supports

Dominick Destine16 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxbfyvO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-07T19:35:20.053+0000)

http://champion.gg/champion/Sona/Support

Sona has a 51.78% winrate in plat+ games, ranked 9th among supports

Thresh and Lee regularly have under 48% win rate at plat and diamond. Does that mean they need buffs? your argument is flimsy.

Archon X1 votes

Thresh is not that good lol

he has a hook that is easily avoided he has a crap shield that can bring someone to him, which is really situational he has an empowered aa (sometimes) and a flay which again, easily avoided and an ult that has a small aoe, again easily avoided

he's only good if you let him all up in your business, and he's able to get all his skills off

and his build path is complete garbage, he tries to be mage, tank, and utility, and does none of them well

IcyPepper12 votes

Winrate's aside, I don't really buy that he's not good...

A champion that isn't that good isn't the most picked champion in the entire game, nor the posterboy of the LCS.

he has a crap shield that can bring someone to him, which is really situational

Look, no offense, but nobody really cares about the shield on his lantern. It's a nice touch, but it's undeniable how powerful the lantern's utility is. Not even numbers can track how powerful it is.

Archon X2 votes

he's the most picked champion among people who have to play support.

you can't tell me that 20% of the game is full of support mains, in my experience it's like 5%.

So when people have to support they're going with who they think is strong

same reason why if I have to mid or top I'm going heimer, or if I have to jung I'm going evelynn, because I don't have time to learn who's the true most op

Xonra11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxbfyvO,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T20:09:48.605+0000)

he's the most picked champion among people who have to play support.

you can't tell me that 20% of the game is full of support mains, in my experience it's like 5%.

So when people have to support they're going with who they think is strong

same reason why if I have to mid or top I'm going heimer, or if I have to jung I'm going evelynn, because I don't have time to learn who's the true most op

I choose to main support and Thresh is like my number 6 most played support. Most people I know that are in higher tiers that DON'T main support and play support usually play stuff like Leona, or go mid laners like BRand and Annie.

I think you are stuck in a past season where everyone though Thresh was OP, because he isn't the go to anymore, even if people still like playing him.

Also it is clear by the champs you named in other roles you have no idea who you are talking about.

Let me guess, you still just pick Vayne if you adc as well, right?

Archon X2 votes

in your last two ranked games as Thresh, you built item 3069 on him instead of item 3401

and you're silver 4

but please, tell me more how I have no idea. You have obviously mastered to the meta to such a great degree that you can invent ridiculous builds on Thresh. No idea.

no idea

Xonra11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxbfyvO,comment-id=0000000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-09T10:19:45.606+0000)

in your last two ranked games as Thresh, you built item 3069 on him instead of item 3401

and you're silver 4

but please, tell me more how I have no idea. You have obviously mastered to the meta to such a great degree that you can invent ridiculous builds on Thresh. No idea.

no idea

Because I don't just default to the same item every game, I actually CHOOSE and use my brain to decide what will work best with the team and the comp and for me.

The last game I played as Thresh I had a Yasuo and a Skarner on my team, so the speed boost with item 3069 was FAR better than the shield from item 3401.

Game before that I had a Yi, Naut, Jinx, and Zed. Speeding them up to get to objectives and people was far better than a shield and a passive you won't get off 90% of the time late game to share the gold.

Me being Silver has nothing to do with anything aside from you thinking that is a witty insult to discredit my valid point, when anyone that is on the boards KNOWS you have no idea what you are talking about, which is why every post you make gets downvoted into oblivion for being trolly or so bassackwards wrong it has nearly become a meme on the boards.

But please, feel free to tell me more about how I don't know how to build when you assume I don't based on nothing but being one of "those guys" who just builds only one way assuming that is correct because you saw a pro player do it, instead of building to the correct situation because it is actually correct for the situation.

Archon X1 votes

if you need movespeed that bad, build a righteous glory, which actually works well with the fact that Thresh is supposed to be a tank, not some utility off-mage.

I could say that there are situations that an upgraded yellow would work as support because I might be on the field for 5+ minutes and thus would run out of wards from my sightstone. That doesn't change the fact that sweeper upgraded to oracle's is literally always correct on a support, because the vision control over objectives and parts of the jungle is too strong to pass up.

Similarly, the shield itself makes face of the mountain worth, either self-cast during an initiation or on an ally, preferably the adc to make the explosion more damaging. Additionally, the base stats of Talisman are beyond useless on Thresh, as opposed to Face of the Mountain which adds tankiness - this is useful because, again, Thresh is a tank.

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Thresh

if you look, there's a 6 to 1 build rate of Face of the Mountain over Talisman. 6 to 1. That means in 6 out of 7 situations, according to pros, you want FotM. You can justify it by saying you are being strategic or whatnot, but really when I face a Thresh in lane who starts coin, it's because they don't know how to last hit without the execute mechanic.

And yes I brought up your rank because you said I had no idea regarding which champs I play in off-roles. I have no problem with having a civil discussion regarding game mechanics, particularly regarding supports. However, when told that my experience is wrong, I really don't understand how that can be justified. In my experience, Thresh with Talisman is pure trash, sure they can speed up into an initiation but it does almost nothing because he can be quickly bursted down by practically anyone. He has to be built tank to be able to survive a teamfight long enough to multicast his abilities.

Also bronze and silvers who downvote my posts because I don't buy into the collective consciousness of "thresh is op despite his shit statistics" but not even because of the statistics but again, based on my own experience as a support main climbing to diamond, he's not that strong.

But I guess me thinking a champion isn't strong is offensive to many.

Xonra11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxbfyvO,comment-id=000000010000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T10:55:23.395+0000)

if you need movespeed that bad, build a righteous glory, which actually works well with the fact that Thresh is supposed to be a tank, not some utility off-mage.

I could say that there are situations that an upgraded yellow would work as support because I might be on the field for 5+ minutes and thus would run out of wards from my sightstone. That doesn't change the fact that sweeper upgraded to oracle's is literally always correct on a support, because the vision control over objectives and parts of the jungle is too strong to pass up.

Similarly, the shield itself makes face of the mountain worth, either self-cast during an initiation or on an ally, preferably the adc to make the explosion more damaging. Additionally, the base stats of Talisman are beyond useless on Thresh, as opposed to Face of the Mountain which adds tankiness - this is useful because, again, Thresh is a tank.

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Thresh

if you look, there's a 6 to 1 build rate of Face of the Mountain over Talisman. 6 to 1. That means in 6 out of 7 situations, according to pros, you want FotM. You can justify it by saying you are being strategic or whatnot, but really when I face a Thresh in lane who starts coin, it's because they don't know how to last hit without the execute mechanic.

And yes I brought up your rank because you said I had no idea regarding which champs I play in off-roles. I have no problem with having a civil discussion regarding game mechanics, particularly regarding supports. However, when told that my experience is wrong, I really don't understand how that can be justified. In my experience, Thresh with Talisman is pure trash, sure they can speed up into an initiation but it does almost nothing because he can be quickly bursted down by practically anyone. He has to be built tank to be able to survive a teamfight long enough to multicast his abilities.

Also bronze and silvers who downvote my posts because I don't buy into the collective consciousness of "thresh is op despite his shit statistics" but not even because of the statistics but again, based on my own experience as a support main climbing to diamond, he's not that strong.

But I guess me thinking a champion isn't strong is offensive to many.

To start with, I don't care what "Everyone builds" more. If something is better in a specific situation, I'm going to build it. I also stated I don't play much Thresh, which should have been obvious as you had to dig more than a month past to find a Thresh game in ranked from me, and it just so happened those two games I needed one item over another. Just because you like FoTM because you can't think for yourself (since most of your responses in the past are about the same "pros did it" stuff), doesn't mean I can't think for myself. I might come to the same conclusion during the game, but just because I didn't pick the same item every game, doesn't make it wrong, it makes it different.

You calling me out for being "Just Silver" only makes you look bad for needing to go there because of your lack of valid points, not me for calling you on your B.S.

It's nice and all that you are Diamond, but being Diamond mechanically isn't the same as being knowledgeably. You can be good at the mechanical aspect and be terrible at the knowledge aspect, as well as the other way around.

Archon X2 votes

alright, so clarify your position

as a silver who doesn't play thresh, and doesn't know how to build thresh when he plays him, you are saying to a diamond support main who has faced thresh countless times, who says from experience that thresh is not that powerful, is terrible at knowledge and spouting bs.

I really, completely have no idea how to even respond to that, because it makes absolutely no sense.

Xonra11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxbfyvO,comment-id=00000001000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T11:10:23.349+0000)

alright, so clarify your position

as a silver who doesn't play thresh, and doesn't know how to build thresh when he plays him, you are saying to a diamond support main who has faced thresh countless times, who says from experience that thresh is not that powerful, is terrible at knowledge and spouting bs.

I really, completely have no idea how to even respond to that, because it makes absolutely no sense.

No, I didn't say I don't know how to build Thresh, YOU said that. I know how to build Thresh just fine (nice try though). I SAID, I built him specifically for reasons those two games, which I already stated above, which you glossed over to insult me about being Silver some more (further proving my point that you have no real argument and are trying to discredit my point by insulting my tier standing).

My entire point was, you saying that Thresh is only played by people who don't play Thresh (which was already proven false as pros, which you so love to go to as your proof unless it isn't convenient for your argument, play him at least the second most at worlds) was false, when people who don't main support actually are less likely to play Thresh. MOST people that main support, pick Thresh, except the two of us obviously, as you play other stuff, and so do I.

Your point was mostly "makes drooling noises and flails Ams Diamond, so I will insult anyone that isn't" because that is all you've actually argued. Oh, and trying to insult what I built 2 games a month ago, without looking at any context, even after GIVING it to you, and explaining it.

It's sad that someone you are insulting about being Silver, very clearly has more actual knowledge than someone who is trying to toss around being Diamond. It is clear that your rank doesn't show anything aside from your rank, and that you are so insecure that you have to use an imaginary rank in a video game to insult people.

ZephyrDrake11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxbfyvO,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-07T20:01:31.748+0000)

Thresh is not that good lol

he has a hook that is easily avoided he has a crap shield that can bring someone to him, which is really situational he has an empowered aa (sometimes) and a flay which again, easily avoided and an ult that has a small aoe, again easily avoided

he's only good if you let him all up in your business, and he's able to get all his skills off

and his build path is complete garbage, he tries to be mage, tank, and utility, and does none of them well

yeah that is why he is the most played support champion (and one of the most played champions period), hook that can be easily avoided? too bad it has such a deceptive hook range, a crap shield that is situational? sorry but what? since when it's bringing allies into fights or rescuing allies that are out of position situational? an easily avoidable flay? what types of Thresh are you playing against?

sorry but you are so full of yourself and this is such an obvious troll answer...

Archon X3 votes

such a troll answer from a diamond 5 support main

with a 85% winrate with Soraka 72% winrate with Braum 66.7% winrate with Janna 64% winrate with Blitzcrank 58% winrate with Leona 58% winrate with Sona 71% winrate with Morgana 57% winrate with Nami

do I need to keep going, or do you accept that I know how the fuck to support, and in my personal opinion, Thresh is fucking weak.

ZephyrDrake14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxbfyvO,comment-id=00000001000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-07T20:25:50.332+0000)

such a troll answer from a diamond 5 support main

with a 85% winrate with Soraka 72% winrate with Braum 66.7% winrate with Janna 64% winrate with Blitzcrank 58% winrate with Leona 58% winrate with Sona 71% winrate with Morgana 57% winrate with Nami

do I need to keep going, or do you accept that I know how the fuck to support, and in my personal opinion, Thresh is fucking weak.

i could care less if you are the number 1 challenger IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. Thresh is the most picked support champion, he has a decent winrate for being picked as often as he is. I could care less if you think Thresh is weak because he isn't since none of his stats reflect him being weak in any way shape or form

Archon X3 votes

He is the most picked because people who don't main support pick who they think is strong.

He's not freelo, the stat of his that reflects him being weak is his sub-50 winrate.

Jinx is the second most picked champ, and has a 52.68% winrate. That means Jinx is actually strong, not just perceived as strong.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend&roleSort=

chipndip111 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxbfyvO,comment-id=0000000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T20:34:32.844+0000)

He is the most picked because people who don't main support pick who they think is strong.

He's not freelo, the stat of his that reflects him being weak is his sub-50 winrate.

Jinx is the second most picked champ, and has a 52.68% winrate. That means Jinx is actually strong, not just perceived as strong.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend&roleSort=

People pick Thresh because of this. They ALSO pick him because he has everything a support could want:

-Sustain (his lantern's shield) -Disengage (Flay, his lantern) -Engage (Flay, his hook) -strong cc (Flay, hook, ult) -Survivability (His disengage + sustain + he gets naturally tankier as he collects souls + Fighters can naturally build as off-tanks anyway)

A good Thresh can quite literally hand a match to his adc on a silver platter. Sona can't do this because she can't even hold someone down to be caught to begin with. All she can do is give her adc assists unless she ults and they don't die from her Sheen-stacked Q after it. Thresh, literally, has no real flaws in his kit outside of execution. Sona has nearly EVERY flaw in her kit, save execution. The people have spoken on which one they value more.

Archon X1 votes

his shield is garbage, his extra tankiness is off-set by the fact that he does not gain armor per level so he needs quite a lot of souls to make a difference.

His engage is easily avoided and his disengage is akin to a mosquito bite on a balmy day.

The people have spoken about which is more popular, but statistics have spoken on which is stronger. Thresh's sub-50 winrate just means that if you're in a game with Thresh, you are more likely to lose than win.

Silver platter with a sub-50 winrate, seems legit.

chipndip111 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxbfyvO,comment-id=000000010000000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-11-07T20:53:39.200+0000)

his shield is garbage, his extra tankiness is off-set by the fact that he does not gain armor per level so he needs quite a lot of souls to make a difference.

His engage is easily avoided and his disengage is akin to a mosquito bite on a balmy day.

The people have spoken about which is more popular, but statistics have spoken on which is stronger. Thresh's sub-50 winrate just means that if you're in a game with Thresh, you are more likely to lose than win.

Silver platter with a sub-50 winrate, seems legit.

The point is that he's a generalist done RIGHT: A ton of different tools for different situations. He's not the best at anything, but his wide range of situations where he's still useful allows him to shine as a support option.

Sona is a generalist done WRONG: A ton of different tools for different situations, but due to her lack of mechanical difficulty, they made her extremely weak in almost every single regard. There isn't just a few champs that do her job better...since she's the absolute worst at every thing she could do. To boot, she herself is easy to kill with no way to defend herself.

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