A small idea for the Shaco rework

ChickenWrap·Oct 5, 2016·12 votes·2,216 views

Hear me out for a minute.

Do you guys know Nocturne's ult and how it applies nearsighted and tints everything red?

What if Shaco's Q did that too, to a single target. Graves' smokescreen and Quinn's Blinding Assault apply it to AoE, Tahm's Devour applies it to one target as he eats them, and Nocturne's is global.

But what if Shaco, after hitting someone coming out from his Q, applied nearsighted? It would play perfectly into his "Make them paranoid, then feast on their fear" style gameplay. Not knowing where their allies are or if help is coming, relying on what they remember to take them out of the situation as the only thing they can see is a jester (or two) stabbing them mercilessly. All alone in their own special "killing room".

I think that would be amazing.

67 Comments

BananaJannanaOct 5, 20161 votes

that's overdoing it, he's fine the way he is

ChickenWrapOct 5, 20164 votes

{quoted}

that's overdoing it, he's fine the way he is

Fine is a relative term. He's not in that good of a spot and hasn't been for awhile. Riot's already going to be giving him changes in the assassin rework as well. I think it would be a fun little addition to have. Really play up the thematic, since that's what Riot seems to care the most about right now.

BLACK REALM GODOct 5, 20161 votes

they're giving shaco a rework ?!?!?!?! NOOOOOOOO! well... as long as his Q W and R are the same. i dont give a flying flip about his passive and throwing knife. his walk is terrible. i feel like im watching someone float/glide over the terrain. he needs more jokes and voice lines.

crippler38Oct 5, 20161 votes

they're probably going to rework his Q stealth since it's a relatively low counter play ability which would annoy people to balance.

AstôlfoOct 5, 20161 votes

"low counter play" "low"

what? are we talking about the same game?

crippler38Oct 5, 20161 votes

'low' as in there's still some counter play, ala pink wards, FQC, red trinkets, you know that stuff you'd buy for rengar?

AstôlfoOct 5, 20161 votes

Shaco's orange cloud of smoke? The fact it only lasts a short duration and takes him a direction?

BLACK REALM GODOct 5, 20161 votes

...next they're going to make teemo unable to go invisible and evelynn green

crippler38Oct 5, 20161 votes

now I don't know about THAT but someone having a flash with an invis on the end of it is going to be a pain to balance for people who aren't going to plop pinks down for fights and make assassinating someone actually difficult.

EDIT: or I could put it another way, trying to kill a shaco alone basically is a game of "kill him before he can Q or hope you guess the right direction he's going to run in" otherwise he's gonna get away, that's real frustrating to be on the receiving end ya know? I mean I love playing the guy but I like to think I can guess how it feels to be on the receiving end of something I'm doing.

TequilaZombieOct 5, 20161 votes

item 3364 item 3092 item 2043 That's the holy trinity of Shaco busting.

Ezreal 's E will also follow Shaco even if he's stealth. I've killed plenty of Shacos as AP Ez due to this.

Then you have LeeSin Rengar TwistedFate RekSai Warwick (start by ulting+Q him, he should be low enough to pop up on your E after he leaves stealth) to royaly fuck him up.

I mean, from the top of my head I just listed 9 ways to fuck with a Shaco's Q. 3 of them avaible for everyone and 2 that are actually viable and useful for any champ.

crippler38Oct 5, 20161 votes

thankfully for ww if you're fast enough you can box before he ults and basically ruin that plan, rengo ult is good for telling your team where he is but if you want to engage on him yourself he's gonna (again if you're fast enough) box when you jump, ult when you jump, q when you jump, so on and so forth.

Agreed entirely on TF and Lee (unless you avoid lee of course) but Rek'Sai I dunno, sure she'll spot you if she's going down under but you can also bait that out by Qing into a bush and holding still so I'd say that's the one with some counterplay (which is nice)

I'm literally only saying this to tell people who don't play shaco often what they can do to counter it in some way, also how could you mention WW without mentioning this guy Malzahar ye bastard!

TequilaZombieOct 6, 20161 votes

Yeah, there is counterplay for all of them, which is really nice.

Shhhh don't let them know about Malzahar . There is no way in hell a Shaco survives him.

crippler38Oct 6, 20161 votes

tbh no way in hell 90% of anyone who isn't a tank survives malz alone unless they have a certain specific item that counters him. Feelsbadman BUT you still have that item soooo, not that bad man

TequilaZombieOct 6, 20162 votes

When they have intense 1 man focus (Malz, WW, Vi) this becomes core to my Shaco build:

item 3053 item 3156 + Defensive-ish item.

Good luck one shotting me.

EDIT: Also, ULT DODGE!

crippler38Oct 6, 20161 votes

ima be honest, real talk, alright but don't be mad-

I forgot sterak's existed.

TequilaZombieOct 6, 20161 votes

Everyone does. That's why the item is awesome. People waste their CDs on the shield and you can crap on them.

BLACK REALM GODOct 5, 20161 votes

shaco's Q doesnt do any damage and it literally makes him weaker because he can only critical for 160% if he attacks from invis. it's literally a runaway tool. literally.

the problem with shaco is he's like singed meets teemo meets leblanc's passive and that makes people upset.

with singed you always know where he is and you just dont follow him because you can see it's dangerous.
with teemo you never know where he might be because once you find him he runs away but his shrooms are constantly on the map. they last for like 3 minutes or something. so you just dont go near the shrooms
with leblanc she's always visible and she doesnt have any traps but as soon as she needs to run away that clone comes out and confuses players
with shaco you can always see him until he doesnt want you to. you never know where his boxes are because they only last 40 seconds. if he's walking away from you it might be a trap or he might literally be trying to get away from you. that messes with peoples minds. thats the gimmick of shaco. thats what needs to be kept.

crippler38Oct 5, 20161 votes

.... it's 220%.... the damage goes up with level....

bruh what are you talkin about!

rest of it is true, he's made to be annoying but that's not necessarily a bad thing, honestly only thing I can think they'd want to change is his q since because of it you can get 1300+ damage autos (backstab passive plus the 270% crit from IE plus static shiv)

That makes shaco's Q basically a mini rengar ultimate late game, granted he's not as tanky as rengar he can still wreck people (if you have red smite you can duel even trundle with your clone up, especially with ignite)

BLACK REALM GODOct 5, 20161 votes

well maybe they should tone a little of that damage back. maybe they could make it to where his passive is everytime he teleports he drops a shaco box or something :P and then make backstab his W that becomes a scaling critical modifier and an attack buff.

crippler38Oct 6, 20161 votes

that'd be weird tbh, having the box on his Q would ruin his clear and moving his steroid to his W would mean he'd basically be screwed if he wanted to try and make ambushes, mostly because that would link his escape with his trap ya know?

they could make it like a draven axe and instead give the Q a really high scaling bonus damage proc that can't crit to encourage a more flat AD build rather than things like Shiv but really the most I can see them doing since they said they'd be making him trickier is maybe tuning up his ultimate a little bit so it's actually able to hit wards and whatnot, and maybe tossing his E slow for something else, possibly making his Q longer distance but reducing the invis time too.

BLACK REALM GODOct 6, 20161 votes

if you say so

BloodyTomponOct 5, 20161 votes

As much as I love the idea, I think it would be better suited to somewhere else on him or on a separate kit. People do seem to hate playing against him and this would only exacerbate that.

ChickenWrapOct 5, 20167 votes

{quoted}

As much as I love the idea, I think it would be better suited to somewhere else on him or on a separate kit. People do seem to hate playing against him and this would only exacerbate that.

They hate playing against him because his kit revolves around outsmarting his opponents. It's not even remotely close to an "overloaded" kit where certain champions deserve hate because they just out-sheer force you. Shaco out-wits you, out-maneuvers you, and makes you afraid (even though he's very easy to counter with and without pink wards or Oracle's). Annoying in its own right, but not worthy of "OP champion" hate.

In my opinion, Shaco is a champion that has a great deal of very visible counterplay. The trick is paying attention and using critical thinking. It is a strategy game, after all.

There's a reason there aren't a whole lot of Shaco players around.

BloodyTomponOct 5, 20163 votes

Oh, it's far from an overloaded kit.

I'd disagree with the counterplay. As far as I can see, there aren't many options for the opponent. There's a huge amount of variance in Shaco, but it's mostly in his hands. It's often not you outwitting Shaco, it's him failing to outwit you. I can see this falling into that pattern. It provides more options for Shaco, but doesn't provide anymore for the opponent.

ChickenWrapOct 5, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Oh, it's far from an overloaded kit.

I'd disagree with the counterplay. As far as I can see, there aren't many options for the opponent. There's a huge amount of variance in Shaco, but it's mostly in his hands. It's often not you outwitting Shaco, it's him failing to outwit you. I can see this falling into that pattern. It provides more options for Shaco, but doesn't provide anymore for the opponent.

Pink wards, oracles, razor buff, looking at the giant poof of orange smoke from the fog of war that signals Shaco used his Q? That's not counterplay for the opponent?

Pink ward or oracles when he tries to escape, he won't escape. Pink ward or oracles the teamfight, he's useless. Pay attention, you won't die. Know he's not going to Q and run directly backward and you'll outsmart him. Know box locations, sweep or avoid them. Understand the difference between clones and the real Shaco, you won't ever hit the clone, and of course my personal favourite "use any dash or knock-back and kill Shaco without him laying a finger on you". If those aren't ways to beat back Shaco, I don't know what are.

crippler38Oct 5, 20162 votes

I wouldn't know about him being worthless, he can go into the teamfight like any other assassin with a mobility ability and his ult gives him a lot of DPS, and with the popular build going around of

item 3074 item 3087 item 3031 item 3147 item 1001 (this is whatever you want for booties) and finally any item you want be it your smite item (personally I prefer to sell this one) or whatever else you please.

With this build you'll basically oneshot anyone, I'm sure you know this as someone I assume is a shaco main but shaco's Q does well over 1300 damage late game if he gets a backstab doing this and without it he still does quite a chunk, not including other things like tiamat active, thunderlords, his E, or other auto attacks even the guy still can really slay people. Problem is this would require your team to engage if there's a pink ward aaaand well, yeeaaaaaaah that doesn't work nearly as well if the adc is someone like lucian

still likely to pop em though

AstôlfoOct 5, 20163 votes

Um, no. If you go into a teamfight as Shaco to try and kill someone…

Assuming they don't immediately just pink, CC, and kill you…

You'd immediately die the moment you attacked and got seen.

crippler38Oct 5, 20161 votes

you're still someone with a blink either way, it's harder if you're not invisible but if you're smart you go in when their cc is down and if just by existing you ensure they have one less item slot and can only fight in at max 2 designated areas you're pretty impactful either way, you can also blink in and ult or instead go for a more juggernaut style build to deal a lot of damage because of your clone and yourself.

So long as you get the single auto attack and tiamat (some go titanic hydra for the help getting thunderlords off) you should be able to basically kill em outright.

Like I said, he's basically rengar.

ChickenWrapOct 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

you're still someone with a blink either way, it's harder if you're not invisible but if you're smart you go in when their cc is down and if just by existing you ensure they have one less item slot and can only fight in at max 2 designated areas you're pretty impactful either way, you can also blink in and ult or instead go for a more juggernaut style build to deal a lot of damage because of your clone and yourself.

So long as you get the single auto attack and tiamat (some go titanic hydra for the help getting thunderlords off) you should be able to basically kill em outright.

Like I said, he's basically rengar.

"Like Rengar, but worse in every way", and that's the problem.

crippler38Oct 5, 20162 votes

personally I find him to be a better rengar if you want to just kill one person but I'm in potato normals elo so ya know.

TequilaZombieOct 5, 20162 votes

Except that Rengar is tankier and has a much more reliable form of hard CC.

Shaco has basicly a free flash. Go full AD as any full melee champion and try to engage with that. You will get thorn to little pieces before you can do anything. That's what is a Shaco without stealth. A full AD melee flashing in a 5 man team. The blink is there mostly to allow to jump walls ands stuff. The most important part of the ability is without a doubt the stealth.

In the case anyone buys a pink, he's basicly a worse Rengar.

crippler38Oct 5, 20162 votes

in any case they're not sitting on a pink he's a better rengar though, no warning and still oneshots you.

and that's why people like shaclone build a more warrior/fighter esq shaco, since him and his clone both get tankier and still do good damage. Not going to instant oneshot people with just a Q>E but still you end up decently effective in teamfights as a diver.

TequilaZombieOct 6, 20161 votes

You don't need to sit on a pink. Just have one around your general location/slightly behind your position.

It should be useful at least as a warning, specially in side lanes.

crippler38Oct 6, 20162 votes

I mean you need to stand about in the vision of a pink ward, otherwise if he happens to get close enough to click on you come late game he's gonna basically instant murder you.

EDIT: wait a minute YOU KNOW THAT ALREADY HOW DARETH THEE TELL ME OTHERWISE!

TequilaZombieOct 6, 20161 votes

Late game problems with Shaco? What is this? Silver 5?

~~I'm S5 and can assure that not even there Shaco is OP~~

ChickenWrapOct 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't know about him being worthless, he can go into the teamfight like any other assassin with a mobility ability and his ult gives him a lot of DPS, and with the popular build going around of

(this is whatever you want for booties) and finally any item you want be it your smite item (personally I prefer to sell this one) or whatever else you please.

With this build you'll basically oneshot anyone, I'm sure you know this as someone I assume is a shaco main but shaco's Q does well over 1300 damage late game if he gets a backstab doing this and without it he still does quite a chunk, not including other things like tiamat active, thunderlords, his E, or other auto attacks even the guy still can really slay people. Problem is this would require your team to engage if there's a pink ward aaaand well, yeeaaaaaaah that doesn't work nearly as well if the adc is someone like lucian

still likely to pop em though

Nah, Ravenous Hydra has been worse than Titanic Hydra for quite a lot of patches now. Plus, if that's your build, you generally explode before you actually kill your target. You get it if you're lucky, but otherwise? You're dead. Also, his best way of dealing with mobility spells is by taking Surge, so he can actually keep up with the people he's trying to kill. You get the choice of "Do I have the chance to maybe keep hitting them, or do I take Thunderlords and hope against hope that I burst them down in time?"

crippler38Oct 5, 20161 votes

personally I like Ravenous for the lifesteal since I always end up wishing I had sustain when I don't have it. Surge is true but thunderlords lets you get a lot of kills early-mid game so I like it quite a bit, I keep forgetting surge is in the game so I'll have to try it lol

ChickenWrapOct 6, 20161 votes

What good does sustain do if you die before you can use it?

crippler38Oct 6, 20161 votes

because I tend to survive by the fact that I have lifesteal more than any tank stats if I want to duel anyone and it helps both after the fight and if I want to do anything besides go and pop someone asap, like if I wanted to push a lane or do dragon or whatnot it keeps me topped off.

I also find the extra aoe from having a hydra item to be very useful and something I'm just too used to having now to get rid of.

TequilaZombieOct 6, 20161 votes

I personally can't stand Titanic. I feel like the life steal allows you to have a much better early/mid game by healing you in the jg and helping you sustain through duels while providing you massive sustain when you split push. Also, much more AD for your Q crit and E scaling.

And thunderlords is extremely useful for taking early kills. It basicly means that nobody can fuck with you in your jungle and you can fuck with them all you want. I've tried Surge in a few games and always felt like my damage was lackluster.

ChickenWrapOct 6, 20161 votes

Titanic actually offesr better burst than Ravenous and the split pushing and jungle clearing power is the same (You shouldn't need more than the Tiamat for awhile. I prefer to take Statikk Shiv, then Tiamat, and then get Duskblade before finishing Titanic). With Refill potion and your jungle item, you're usually gaining health clearing the jungle anyway. The health bonus that Titanic gives makes up for the lack of lifesteal as well.

I also take Thunderlords the vast majority of the time.

crippler38Oct 5, 20161 votes

here's a few things besides countering the stealth (dota 101 vs a stealth hero, place the detection ward whenever you wanna make a push or take an objective then murder them when they show up.)

ping him when he appears, this one's obvious

whichever one is lowest health is usually the fake in a team fight

if he's going in he has no way out if your team is smart, this one is obvious but a lot of people just freak out and don't pay attention to him when he goes in.

if he's split pushing treat him like singed, either send a tanky duelist after him (this is comp dependent) the support plus someone else (the item 3092 ghosts hunt you in stealth) or slap a pink ward down after he q's away to kill him, if he's building mostly tanky just send someone who isn't a squishball after him to stop the split push, in other words treat it like a normal splitpushing case ala tryndamere.

I'll admit his assassination has about as much counterplay as rengar (less so if you're not looking in the fog of war or something) however he's also completely worthless without his Q when it comes to it unless you walk into a box. If he's countered by pinks while you're doing objectives he WILL NOT be able to engage on you because of how squishy he is if he's trying to assassinate and his lack of escape options if anyone tries to focus on him.

Basically, countering shaco is the support's job since nobody else will build pink wards, but if they do it right they'll stop him from stopping any one of their pushes, counter him like you would rengar.

ChickenWrapOct 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

here's a few things besides countering the stealth (dota 101 vs a stealth hero, place the detection ward whenever you wanna make a push or take an objective then murder them when they show up.)

ping him when he appears, this one's obvious

whichever one is lowest health is usually the fake in a team fight

if he's going in he has no way out if your team is smart, this one is obvious but a lot of people just freak out and don't pay attention to him when he goes in.

if he's split pushing treat him like singed, either send a tanky duelist after him (this is comp dependent) the support plus someone else (the ghosts hunt you in stealth) or slap a pink ward down after he q's away to kill him, if he's building mostly tanky just send someone who isn't a squishball after him to stop the split push, in other words treat it like a normal splitpushing case ala tryndamere.

I'll admit his assassination has about as much counterplay as rengar (less so if you're not looking in the fog of war or something) however he's also completely worthless without his Q when it comes to it unless you walk into a box. If he's countered by pinks while you're doing objectives he WILL NOT be able to engage on you because of how squishy he is if he's trying to assassinate and his lack of escape options if anyone tries to focus on him.

Basically, countering shaco is the support's job since nobody else will build pink wards, but if they do it right they'll stop him from stopping any one of their pushes, counter him like you would rengar.

I can't believe I forgot about Spooky Ghosts. God, I hate it when I use Deceive to engage or disengage and a ghost runs into my face AND THEN I DIE.

ArakadiaOct 5, 20161 votes

around outsmarting his opponents.

But also people don't always feel like they got outsmarted. His Q is both a dash and invisibility, creating some wonderful mind games but also making people feel like Shaco had too many ways to escape and too easily at times.

He's far from overloaded and seems balanced ATM but people get upset because his kit makes it easy to outsmart people. Of course clever shacos will succeed much more so, but people mostly get upset over his Q I feel like and how powerful of a disengage tool it is if he has it up.

ChickenWrapOct 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But also people don't always feel like they got outsmarted. His Q is both a dash and invisibility, creating some wonderful mind games but also making people feel like Shaco had too many ways to escape and too easily at times.

He's far from overloaded and seems balanced ATM but people get upset because his kit makes it easy to outsmart people. Of course clever shacos will succeed much more so, but people mostly get upset over his Q I feel like and how powerful of a disengage tool it is if he has it up.

Well, the counterply exists and it's not like it has a low cooldown or he has any other means of escape. Kassa din does the same thing but 5 times more often without invisibility and can use it to chunk you in am AoE and people don't complain about that. Shaco can't even effort to take flash and has to rely on his Q for everything

crippler38Oct 6, 20162 votes

hey hey now shaco CAN take flash it just makes it a little harder early game, later on it won't really matter as much.

ArakadiaOct 6, 20161 votes

Kass isn't very strong until late game, and people don't complain about him because hes uncommon to fight.

Also Shaco can take flash and gets the stealth. Plus it doesn't cost ramping mana to use often.

ChickenWrapOct 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Kass isn't very strong until late game, and people don't complain about him because hes uncommon to fight.

Also Shaco can take flash and gets the stealth. Plus it doesn't cost ramping mana to use often.

Shaco is more uncommon than Kassadin. Much more.

Shaco never takes flash because if he does, his early game is shit. He literally needs ignite to snowball or he'll be useless until 40 minutes in.

ArakadiaOct 7, 20161 votes