I see this come up a lot on forums. Champions without mana (please don't say they're resourceless) have an advantage over mana users in lane. They can stay in lane longer, and depending on the type of champion, have a variety of harass, sustain, damage, mobility, cc, etc. If Riot has claimed that high mobile champions are fine as long as there's a drawback, like Lucian's range, then what should be done to manaless champions to give mana users an advantage?
Xtremey6 voteswell, i remember recalling from the old forms that riots original idea for resources were as follows:
mana: High sustained damage and burst, remains balanced because it cannot be spammed infinitely
resourceless (rage/fury included): High burst, can use abilities infinitely, gated by cooldowns
energy: High sustained damage and burst, can use abilities infinitely, remains balanced because it runs out in extended fights/very frequent spamming
of course this all went out the window when yasuo was released, and since then reksai and gnar pretty much just say "fuck you" to these guidelines.
Chromatic Eagle1 votesIsn't Gnar gated by his transformations though? Then Rek'Sai loses fury everytime she burrows.
majulito2 votesresourceless can have higher cds earlier and energy users have to be out of combat to restore energy.
bad manner kid2 votesIn other words, what are the pros and cons of buffing mana regen and reducing total mana?
Chromatic Eagle1 votesI don't understand why people keep calling them resourceless. Isn't managing your cooldowns so you're able to burst or escape important? Or energy, or Rumble's heat?
Hasztalan22 votes[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EgE2pMej,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-02T01:35:38.318+0000)
I don't understand why people keep calling them resourceless. Isn't managing your cooldowns so you're able to burst or escape important? Or energy, or Rumble's heat?
It would be, but the truth is that in 2014 manaless champs have lower initial cooldowns than the ones who has mana, and since they all rush 40% cdr (but at least 15-20%) their cooldowns just doesnt matter after 10 minutes which is unfair as f0k.
Lot of theese manaless champs could be balanced by simply giving them mana. Riven would be the best example, as if she had some mana to manage she wouldn't be able to do this dumb facerollkeyboardtilltheydieoridie style of play and she coudn't use her stuff nonstop to fly around the map with her 4 dashes and so on.
Honestly having no mana is just flat out unfair advantage. Manaless champs are allways raedy. They are allways waiting. THey allways have kill potential.
Lord Dusteon2 votesIt would be, but the truth is that in 2014 manaless champs have lower initial cooldowns than the ones who has mana, and since they all rush 40% cdr (but at least 15-20%) their cooldowns just doesnt matter after 10 minutes which is unfair as f0k.
Lot of theese manaless champs could be balanced by simply giving them mana. Riven would be the best example, as if she had some mana to manage she wouldn't be able to do this dumb facerollkeyboardtilltheydieoridie style of play and she coudn't use her stuff nonstop to fly around the map with her 4 dashes and so on.
Honestly having no mana is just flat out unfair advantage. Manaless champs are allways raedy. They are allways waiting. THey allways have kill potential.
And the solution isn't to give them mana. Riven is already heavily reliant on having her abilities up; forcing her to build mana items to keep them up is an extreme nerf that would need to be made up (more damage, more mobility, longer cc). While that is one example, it applies to a lot of resourceless champions; randomly adding mana would require giving them heavy buffs to make up for it.
Hasztalan21 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EgE2pMej,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-01-02T02:15:49.906+0000)
And the solution isn't to give them mana. Riven is already heavily reliant on having her abilities up; forcing her to build mana items to keep them up is an extreme nerf that would need to be made up (more damage, more mobility, longer cc). While that is one example, it applies to a lot of resourceless champions; randomly adding mana would require giving them heavy buffs to make up for it.
No, not really. Why would you compensate for them? THey are already STRONGER hence they should have mana TO COMPENSATE FOR HTE MOAR POWER.
Chromatic Eagle1 votesI don't think they're going to take away manaless champions. Wouldn't the mana just make them like everyone else, but better with their damage, cc, etc.?
Hasztalan22 votes[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EgE2pMej,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-03T03:44:22.296+0000)
I don't think they're going to take away manaless champions. Wouldn't the mana just make them like everyone else, but better with their damage, cc, etc.?
I didn't ask for it. But then make them having a longer cooldowns for REAL. Like even if a Riven or Kata decides to build 40% cdr they should have around 8-10 sec cooldowns. So you actually have window to punish them. Not faceroll the keyboard for QWEQWEWQEWQEQWWQEQWE gg u just got a Penta.
Sachabot1 votesDefine "Stronger" here, because I doubt Syndra does less damage than Riven. In fact, I'm pretty sure if she seized the right moment, she could zero Riven before retaliation.
Hasztalan21 votesDefine "Stronger" here, because I doubt Syndra does less damage than Riven. In fact, I'm pretty sure if she seized the right moment, she could zero Riven before retaliation.
Won't bother answering this usually cuz it shouts u have no idea how balance debates are going. THis X Y has better Z C than G F is bs.
ALso i have doubts about your reading capability. Who even asked or said that Riven deals more dmg than Syndra? How the hell did u come to this that the answer in this thread is Syndra deals more dmg than Riven? Even if would be true it is totally irrelevant.
But just fyi, Syndra deals more dmg? Not really. Roughly teh same. The problem is tho, that syndra uses her combo and then she is out from the fight for 10 seconds while waiting cooldowns, and has utter mana issues after 2-3 rotations of spells. Meanwhile Riven can jump around the map 3 times with her 4 dahses and still be able to kill an entire team by herself , cuz she has all her tools ready and avilable nonstop.
Guineasaurus Rex1 votesTo me the worst part is the manaless champs can simply focus on health sustain early on where mana based champs need both mana and health sustain. Later on in game it's not much of an issue but those first ~7 levels can be rough sometimes
Chromatic Eagle2 votesShould they have less base health for having no mana?
Sachabot1 votesThat advantage is actually mostly in your head. All champions have particular patterns of play and counterplay, and learning to recognize these is part of getting better at the game. Certain champions are always stronger than others, but it's not determined by their resource pool.
Chromatic Eagle1 votesBut as we've seen with other champions, sometimes the counterplay isn't large enough. By Riot's own admission, they don't provide enough counterplay for high mobile champions. The same could be said for manaless ones.
Poptart Evelynn1 votesHaving a cool down doesn't mean it's a resource. A resource is something that is finite and you must manage or else you run out. You don't run out of cool downs.
Back in the old days when Kat was the only one she had a huge set back. That was she was incredibly weak early and had to use skill to overcome early game into an insane mid game. Once the game scaled it came down to teamwork and she was balanced by counter itemization and proper team play.
Then shit like Riven came out and well all that was thrown out the window.
Chromatic Eagle1 votesTechnically you can run out of cooldowns, but the window to punish them is smaller than those with energy, then they have a shorter window than those with rage/fury, etc.
Is Kat still like that? A weak early game? Do you think Riot has a chance to tone down cooldown champions such as Riven?
Chromatic Eagle1 votesWell how bad are manaless champions? No one really complains about Garen, and I think Kat can be fixed while not having mana. It's Yasuo and Riven that seem to be the problem. Shen has high energy costs, and I'm not sure about Kennen. It's Zed and possibly Akali that frustrates people. Everyone complains about Lee about everything. I'm not sure what Rengar uses, and I don't think Rumble is overwhelming with his resource. I only see people complain about Gnar and Rek'Sai so far while people want Shyvana and Renekton buffed.