Vayne is still total bullsht
Title.
91 Comments
LegitBusinessman33 votesShe has benefited immensely from Riot's "We want short games so we're going to just damage creep everything." This is why Twitch and Vayne are such problem - They don't need to scale anymore. Two items is 'late game adc' now.
Nayzumi31 votesShe's got a 53% winrate and a 21% pick rate but Riot doesn't want to nerf her because she's "flashy" and "requires a lot of skill to pull off" when they overbuffed her. Not even mentioning Press the attack, which gives her a double 3 hit proc at once with her w, and the fact that her ult is extended by 4 seconds every time she gets a kill/assist, on top of the 30/50/70 extra AD that works with her passive and grants her 70 movement speed while she's in it. But who am I too judge, Riots balance team seems to be on top of things this past year, cough 
cough.
DarkRooster10 votesI remember the times when Vayne required immense skill to play and sometimes even whole team going for support composition for Vayne. Now guys that can't even press E correctly are getting pentas with her.
DoktorKaiser7 votesBecause once upon a time in Season 2 everyone was tanky and nobody died from 3 autoattacks, thus Vayne players had to pull of multiple good plays and position properly for 15+ seconds while kitting around to not get caught. And yeah she also had the worst laning phase in the game by far, she literally made you go 4v5 for the first 30 minutes to compensate for her counterplay-less late game in sense that she was the only champion to deal % max hp true damage. Now she can kill me at lvl 2 easily, she 1 shots squishies with IE and Shyv and vaporizes tanks in less than 5 seconds while being perma invisible without anything to reveal her. Lovely.
Arakadia7 votesYeah I think you'd be a worse at balance.
Listing out her stats and kit doesn't actually make her broken. I can do the same with Aatrox.
Nayzumi6 votes[deleted]
E GIRL SNIPER7 votesNice https://image.prntscr.com/image/PgLf0FB0SIKMHDSZoSE-oA.png
Youre unranked and op is only plat 4 tho???
LordGeovanni1 votes was fine and the result of adcs in general doing what vayne does.
Arakadia17 votesExcellent in depth analysis. Good, solid feedback and evidence.
+1 for the quality, original post.
PePsiLemoNN13 votesVery well thought-out thread , very insightful.
Velzard of Koz2 votesLol, wanted to post exactly the words "Very insightful".
My Heartshaker12 votesWhat are the point of posts like these?
You offer 0 actual discussion beyond the title of the post and hope to achieve something?
Honestly baffles me - maybe you just want to farm upvotes or something for the internet points?
Fairyfleur3 votesPosts like these are just for farming upvotes pretty much
Troll for Trump8 votesShe's at 51% WR/ 23% playrate in KR and 52% WR/23% playrate in NA.
Pretty overtuned, but not "total bullshit"
Except when she's played top. Sure, it has an overall lower winrate AND playrate but that abomination is total bullshit to lane against.
MohawkBird1 votes[deleted]
Troll for Trump1 votesWhere are you getting the stats for her playrate based on games played?
I see champion.ggs (which lines up with what you're saying), but Riot has previously called the statistics inaccurate.
If her winrate is still 50% or higher for new vayne players, then yeah.
If it's something like sub 50% for newer Vayne players and then some higher number for more experience players, then it would be more tolerable.
Agree with what you're saying though
Geshultz1 votesLeague of graphs has vayne's global playrate/winrate at 52% / 28% popularity with the average vayne player having around 25 games going based off the winrate with the games played graph. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/vayne/platinum Which 25 games assuming average of around 28 minutes per game = 11.6 hours of playtime on vayne or 700 minutes.
Athenes Lulu7 votesAfter supporting a few Vaynes and getting wins because of that when games shouldn't have won, can confirm.
I don't have an issue with her being able to outscale most ADCs since she's one of the most designated "late game tank busters", but I do have an issue with her still being able to tumble and then 2 shot squishies.
I know her tumble crit interaction is either toned down or removed a few patches ago, but similar oneshotting mechanics are still there, and that's not what Vayne was intended to do.
Blossom of Time1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eg2u7ZQu,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-12-24T08:28:29.944+0000)
After supporting a few Vaynes and getting wins because of that when games shouldn't have won, can confirm.
I don't have an issue with her being able to outscale most ADCs since she's one of the most designated "late game tank busters", but I do have an issue with her still being able to tumble and then 2 shot squishies.
I know her tumble crit interaction is either toned down or removed a few patches ago, but similar oneshotting mechanics are still there, and that's not what Vayne was intended to do.
Well you see Vayne is one of those champions who are difficult to balance, like Ezreal for instance. They are either bad or good, rarely inbetween. She was designed in a meta where tanks/bruisers were the main problem so they made her to combat that. Now since that tank/bruiser meta was toned down, vayne began to fall off because of her inability to dish out any damage due to the "range" meta we see nowadays due to her small aa range. If Vayne is able to get to your squishies (mainly your adc/support) then it's really your team's fault for letting her get close. You should be peeling your adc and keeping your support safe while they deal damage from the backline.
Tychusfindlay9181 votes[{quoted}](name=Chewy Candy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eg2u7ZQu,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-12-24T09:25:01.517+0000)
Well you see Vayne is one of those champions who are difficult to balance, like Ezreal for instance. They are either bad or good, rarely inbetween. She was designed in a meta where tanks/bruisers were the main problem so they made her to combat that. Now since that tank/bruiser meta was toned down, vayne began to fall off because of her inability to dish out any damage due to the "range" meta we see nowadays due to her small aa range. If Vayne is able to get to your squishies (mainly your adc/support) then it's really your team's fault for letting her get close. You should be peeling your adc and keeping your support safe while they deal damage from the backline.
Her range is quite average, sivir and lucian and kalista IIRC are the lower ranged ADCs.
AS I LAY FEEDING7 votesi havent seen vayne because i ban her every game
AR URF6 votes[deleted]
NemeBro15 votes[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eg2u7ZQu,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-12-24T06:46:42.974+0000)
Lol people complaining about a marksman with literally the smallest aa range.
Vayne's AA range (550) is average. Sivir and Lucian off the top of my head have shorter AA ranges at 500, for example.
She's just close to the shortest ranged ADC overall, because she has no longer-ranged abilities or abilities that increase her AA range. She's literally all autos and auto modifiers.
AR URF1 votes[deleted]
DoktorKaiser17 votes-
she SHREDS too fast to have any reasonable counterplay considering how safe she is with her condemn and ulti
-
she 1 shots squishies which is exactly what she should NEVER be allowed to do
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she has one of the best laning phases when it comes to ADC. Vayne. Has. Great. Laning. Phase.
Fucking
Vayne
As a Season 1 veteran I can only facepalm because of that and pray that RIOT balance team stops doing drugs..
AR URF2 votes[deleted]
DoktorKaiser10 votesFriend, when I started playing 7+ years ago Vayne's main weakness was that she couldn't easily 1v1 any other ADC without outplaying them or having 6 items. That is why she was considered a very hard champion that requires perfect mechanics which is only but a myth nowadays. Now she just tumbles towards me and booooooom I disappear from the game. She is made to be a tank buster, not a ranged assassin...
Cains Rock3 votesI see a lot of fed Vayne's but one good Jax will take care of it.
Arakadia1 votesOkay Vayne's laning phase isn't nearly as weak as it used to be, but its a lie to say she has one of the best.
Mokuto Bunshi4 votesAs an (EX!)Lucian player. I agree, my auto range is RIDICULOUSLY short and unlike Vayne I don't have CC and DON'T have invisibility. And once she procs her ult, her mobility is greater than mine as well. Sure I can fight her early, but that's not how you win games because you can't keep her down forever, so where does that leave me and Lucian? No idea, but its not the best place to be...
Need Gold 4 Tent6 votesbring back oracles. at least some assassins can have a chance to outplay her then. Or at least the red trinket, so that I can sacrifice my vision just to counter that bs.
PHDinFirstBlood5 votesI find her bullshit too . Curious though , what makes YOU think she's bull shit ?
PhearBunny32 votesHer play making kit has zero counterplay. It would have counterplay, if her "counters" actually countered her(Point and click CC). BUUTTTTT she has so much damage baked into her overloaded kit, that she can pretty freely just rush a QSS and have no counterplay while still doing more DPS than every other champ in the game even tho she rushed a QSS.
PHDinFirstBlood15 votesYea you are absolutely right. Its hard enough hitting a Vayne with an unreliable skillshot to cc her when shes tumbling going all invisible every 2 seconds, she gets a QSS and negates your team's point and click CC too . Not to mention her burst damage and mobility . Cancer champion .[sg-ahri-1]
Arakadia9 votesSaying she has zero counterplay is a lie.
You must mean that she needs more counterplay. Because its not entirely impossible to pop a Vayne, stay away from walls, disengage before she gets a W proc, etc.
Its also a lie to say that a champion with a relatively weak early game has higher DPS than any other champion in the game if she builds rushes a QSS.
ApexInTheCircle7 votesSaying she has zero counterplay is a lie.
You must mean that she needs more counterplay. Because its not entirely impossible to pop a Vayne, stay away from walls, disengage before she gets a W proc, etc.
Its also a lie to say that a champion with a relatively weak early game has higher DPS than any other champion in the game if she builds rushes a QSS.
Riot can't decide if they want her as a DPS tank busing adc or a burst adc. I mean it's not like her tumble with IE, Shiv and rapid fire can almost take out 75% of a squishy's health or anything LOL
LordGeovanni1 votesThe thing is this isnt anything unique to her. Cait an do the same thing with her head shot. Draven can do the same thing with his q axe. and crit is tank busting because armor and defensive stats is generally bad because they try to keep champions who do it better than others in the same class on the low end of being durable.
GayFluffyUnicorn5 votesHow do you disengage from a champ with a MS steroid and a small dash every 2 seconds? Her entire kit is point and click. She has no counterplay as does many adcs. A lot of adcs can be dodged, jhin, varus for example. But everything on vayne is point and click. Her only counterplay is burst her or CC her which isn't sufficient tbh since that never counted for statstick bruisers who got nerfed into oblivion.
Arakadia2 votesHow do you disengage from a champ with a MS steroid and a small dash every 2 seconds?
You conveniently forgot to mention how her dash is only 2 seconds at maximum rank. And that it doesn't go on cooldown unless she auto attacks. So if she doesn't auto attack someone/or can auto attack someone then her Q will be on a 13/12/11/10/9 second cooldown.
But lets list off the ways you can disengage from Vayne.
- Any form of crowd control or displacement which the game has been heavily saturated with.
- A heavy hitting spell like Brand W or Karma Q can easily get her to back off.
- Just burst the squishy ADC with 550 range who is running directly at you.
- Use your own mobility (Gosh its easy to forget that you have your own kit with its own strengths just like Vayne.) Anyways this could be a movement speed steroid, a dash, a blink, or some oddball like Bard portal and Kayn E.
- Zone her off with something like an Anivia wall or Zyra plant.
She has no counterplay as does many adcs.
This isn't true because you can dodge her E from pinning you into a wall. Thats one way to counter her via playing the game, which makes your statement false.
Now the statement that would be more accurate and I could agree with would be, "She doesn't have enough counterplay." Which is fair and can be backed up.
Her only counterplay is burst her or CC her which isn't sufficient tbh since that never counted for statstick bruisers who got nerfed into oblivion.
Because statstick bruisers usually were not burstable/unharmed by crowd control. Yeah that Vel'Koz rotation is going to hurt like hell to the Vayne, but the Volibear might not care as much.
And Vayne is supposed to be a hyper carry. Maybe her early game isn't weak enough, but she is supposed to be a hyper carry. Just like Fiora and Master Yi, Vayne is a super squishy duelist who's supposed to be weak to a team's focus/CC but will deal tremendous damage late game and when unchecked.
Shablagoo3 votesUmm if she is in a fight it is a 2 second cd automatically because she will auto u unless ur ranged, which is another huge thing anything melee without a gap closer even with a gap closer has a hard time against her. Not to mention she will easily kit u and you can't run from her too.
Arakadia2 votesUmm if she is in a fight it is a 2 second cd automatically because she will auto u unless ur ranged,
Okay. But this is at max rank Q. And assuming she immediatly attacks an enemy. Sometimes there isn't an enemy in range. Sometimes the right enemy isn't in range. Sometimes she can't auto attack without stopping for just long enough to get in range of the enemy. The list goes on.
another huge thing anything melee without a gap closer even with a gap closer has a hard time against her.
Bwah! Its almost like this is the intended weakness of being melee!
Not to mention she will easily kit u and you can't run from her too.
A kiting ADC should be good at kiting. Vayne trades her ability to kite for many other things.
And you can run from Vayne. If she has her ultimate up, well its an ult. But her passive doesn't make it so she automatically outruns everyone and can ignore all attempts to slow her down.
Shablagoo1 votesYes but you still dont get it, getting mobility every two seconds is cancer especially because she gets a ms boost when chasing targets. You also have to understand that unless you perma stun her, or just completely dont fight her she will have that 2 seconds of bonus dmg and mobility it is huge advantage regardless.
So I guess that entitles her to absolutely no counter-play at all as a melee, not only that but a no counter-play true dmg passive that makes building against her impossible, because even if you do get armor the crit basically still makes her dmg insane, if you get armor you almost automatically get hp in most cases so their is no real way to build against her.
No you dont run away from vayne as any melee champion you either have to have mobility or flash on hand. She doesnt trade her ability to kite, in fact it is easier for her because of her q which is what im talking about, if a person is coming at her you have to immediately kill her after stunning her cuz she will turn things around.
She is a bundle of cancer to melee, and after a few items, cancer to other adc's too can most 1v1 her after six without having to have a massive lead. I understand she trades her teamfight for good 1v1 ability, but that was before it was tough to keep adc's alive. As of now after assassins nerfs, crit item buffs, support buffs, tank buffs, it isnt even hard to keep vayne alive she has very good kiting tools inside her kit anyway especially compared to most other adc's on top of the power of supports.
Arakadia1 votesYou also have to understand that unless you perma stun her, or just completely dont fight her she will have that 2 seconds of bonus dmg and mobility it is huge advantage regardless.
Unless you dodge Syndra's spells, being able to burst so hard is a huge advantage.
Unless you kite Darius, being able to be so tanky and deal so much damage is a huge advantage.
Unless you focus Vayne, being able to be so mobile is absolutely a huge advantage.
You know, champions are supposed to have strengths.
So I guess that entitles her to absolutely no counter-play at all as a melee, not only that but a no counter-play true dmg passive that makes building against her impossible, because even if you do get armor the crit basically still makes her dmg insane, if you get armor you almost automatically get hp in most cases so their is no real way to build against her.
Okay first of all, you can counterplay her as a melee. Flanking her is potentially effective, but most melees are balanced around being able to close the gap or survive the walk.
More importantly, if you stay away from walls you massively reduce her kiting potential.
In addition, you can counterbuild her.
Critical strike chance is without a doubt countered by armor. It sounds like you want to build one damage item and then ignore Vayne.
Hell, you can even counterbuild her true damage with attack speed slows.
No you dont run away from vayne as any melee champion you either have to have mobility or flash on hand. She doesnt trade her ability to kite, in fact it is easier for her because of her q which is what im talking about, if a person is coming at her you have to immediately kill her after stunning her cuz she will turn things around.
If a Vayne chases a juggernaut, she's going to very easily and quickly have the tables turned on her. If she chases anyone who isn't a juggernaut but melee, they probably have some sort of mobility or CC that allows them to disengage.
Oh and again, Vayne's strength is the ability to chase. Thats why her power budget dips into that department in both her passive and ult.
And tell me how the 550 range ADC with nigh nothing but auto attacks doesn't trade her ability to kite for her ability to safely siege and poke. Vayne is going to have a real hard time against that Varus and Caitlyn if they out poke her. And that enemy tristana is going to be melting towers so much more effectively.
She is a bundle of cancer to melee, and after a few items, cancer to other adc's too can most 1v1 her after six without having to have a massive lead. I understand she trades her teamfight for good 1v1 ability, but that was before it was tough to keep adc's alive. As of now after assassins nerfs, crit item buffs, support buffs, tank buffs, it isnt even hard to keep vayne alive she has very good kiting tools inside her kit anyway especially compared to most other adc's on top of the power of supports.
I can agree that the game has changed around her and she got some unhealthy changes to the point where a lot of her weaknesses have been dulled. She could use more counterplay tbh. I think a lot more ADC's should be like Varus or Jhin who have less reliable damage with more windows of power.
Shablagoo1 votesOk? How was listing other champions with certain traits proving anything, you kept on talking about how her q wasnt as bad then completely switch as if point out other champions strength proves something. Regardless of what one says vaynes q is to much power for such a short cd, with the excuse being she is low ranged.
Really flanking? This is only useful for assassins, for one by the time someone flanks the teamfight will be over especially a slow moving melee fighter. Also flanking the backline means you not only have to deal with vayne but the backline mage and support. This is only an advantage depending on the team you play against so is terrible and not even substantial counterplay. Also the point isnt even the stun for her e it is actually the knockback in general, because of it a flash must be blown, it is s must or you will not catch up. Which is countered by the fact that most attack speed slows dont do much regardless and still doesnt change the fact her major dmg is uncounterable. Only two items really counter her effectively and are not enough
and 
both cannot be stacked one actually helps vayne abit too by giving health and the other is actually the only real item that can counter vayne but not even close to the extent of other adc's.
Does it matter when she penta kills your whole team, not able to do much because the supports has so much power. She does have weaknesses like she isn't as strong in teamfights and sieging, however that has changed. Towers are paper you dont need Cait to siege two ppl even one is fine as long as they have ad and attack speed. For teamfights vayne isnt actually as bad as other adc's she has very good peel with her ult and e and has crazy single target dmg she can 1v1 most adc's and ppl jumping on her will be bursted by the enemy team if attacking her. Mostly counterplay must be added in her w because it is just insane, she can burst tanks to fast much faster the regular adc's. Her range isnt even that big of a disadvantage considering her ult and kit ability.
Yes which is what ppl are complaining about we agree on this, and thats the problem with vayne. She is an adc who has the least counterplay out of almost all adc's, maybe comparable to lucian and kalista in the toxic but way less counterplay compared to them. When she is strong it is just toxic, her kit is toxic, to me worse then yasuo which i dont feel is as toxic. That is the problem her toxic kit.
AirKingNeo2 votesVayne's kit has 2 effects on 2 abilities, 1 effect on 2 abilities, and 3 in her ult.
That's not overloaded. It's fairly average.
PhearBunny5 votesOverloaded in the sense that its the most mechanically superior kit in the game. But has welfare stats seeping out of every orifice.
Massive true damage- Best tank buster in the game+most mechanically superior champ in the game. Tumble+shiv crit- Best Assassin+Most mechanically superior champ in the game. Free movespeed. Resets. Huge amounts of free AD on her R. Possibly the best late game ADC in the game, who is supposed to have a weak early game, but doesn't. So much free shit, that she can literally build QSS as her 2nd item, and still do too much damage at midgame.
Malix Farwin2 votesHer play making kit has zero counterplay. It would have counterplay, if her "counters" actually countered her(Point and click CC). BUUTTTTT she has so much damage baked into her overloaded kit, that she can pretty freely just rush a QSS and have no counterplay while still doing more DPS than every other champ in the game even tho she rushed a QSS.
I think this is less of a vayne problem and more of a damage creep problems. When the damage creep is too high champions who have some ramp(like Katarina and Vayne) which is suppose to give you time to counterplay, become overpowered because you removed their weakness. Katarina's whole ULT is suppose to give you time to react and CC but she is killing people so fast that she doesn't even need it and when shee does use it, its a split second. same deal with Vayne and her Passive, She is no longer building to hit you with her passive bonus damage a few times, she can delete squishiess in a lot of cases without even getting to that third hit.
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