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I may be an ass for thinking this.

Ralanr··80 votes·5,596 views

But why do AP champions need items equivalent to AD items when most of them have more range than AD champions? Sure marksmen are the exception here (as always apparently) but fighters and assassins have to get into melee range most of the time (some exceptions may apply).

Most AP champions (or maybe just mages) have the range to interact from a decently safe distance. That why (IMO) AD get a lot of decent MR items because they need to survive closing the gap. If AP champions had the equivalent for every tool, then the game would be heavily stacked in their favor.

I mean, have you ever tried fighting someone with more reach than you? You either need to outrange them, hit them faster/harder from the same range, or close the gap to hit them. So it comes at no surprise that AD (mainly melee. We all know how marksmen can abuse items not meant for them) get gear and abilities that help them close the gap. Because they are melee and need to survive to fight in close range.

237 Comments

SSJTribe77 votes

I don't think AP champions need the equivalent of the AD items, but consider this; items are bought for a few different reasons such as

  1. Helping your champion overcome an inherent weakness (like a slow juggernaut buying dead man's plate, ADC buying lifesteal or GA, or a mage buying CDR to combat long cooldowns)
  2. Accentuating a champion's strength (this would be like Marksman buying an Infinity Edge, Mage buying Rabadon's, etc.)
  3. Building to oppose your opponent's strength (Building armor against an AD lane, or MR versus a Magic User)

The problem some mage mains have is that many AD items actually do all three of these things. Black Cleaver for example has a movespeed boost, has AD so it increases damage dealt, armor shred increases that AD damage further, and health and CDR so your opponent can't kill you as easily.

Maw of Malmortius is another, it gives AD for increased damage, armor pen to further increase that damage, MR to mitigate magic spells, and a shield that scales with MR which prevents you from dying to magic damage.

Both of these items cover all 3 buying points, there are more examples but I think by now you understand what I'm getting at.

Now consider the mage options: Rod of Ages gives AP, health and mana (eventually) which is great, but does not offer any CDR to help mitigate long CD's. Zhonya's gives AP, armor, CDR, and a nice active, but no health to back it up, and no mana or mana regen so that CDR doesn't quite help until you get a second item. Morellonomicon gives CDR and Mana, with a mana regen passive if you kill a champion. But without health, MR, or armor, the mage can still be easily killed by an all-in.

I guess my point is that it's easy to feel invalidated as a mage, if Zed first buys item 3156 , he becomes very hard for a mage to kill as all his weaknesses have been covered. Meanwhile the mage has to choose between surviving Zed's all-in item 3157 , being able to farm effectively item 3165 item 3027 . Zed can easily choose then, based on his opponent's build. If item 3157 , he can just push the wave and roam, knowing the mage can't effectively push back without risking running out of mana. If the mage builds item 3165 or similar, Zed can just continue to poke until he has an all-in opportunity. No matter what the mage does, it's the wrong choice. (Man this post ended up way longer than I intended) I'd argue then, not for more shiny toys for mages, but for less toys for our AD counterparts.

A Superb Villain31 votes

Mostly because being in range of an AP champion is not a guarantee of death, they need to land their spells to accomplish anything. If they miss, well they are shit out of luck, because most of those abilities have cooldowns. If an AD champion gets into range, the AP champion is dead without interference, they have a fallback that enables them to keep doing damage even if their abilities fail to make a kill, i.e. beating their target to death.

Ralanr6 votes

Fair point. Though this is problem with magic vs melee in pretty much anything. Unless the utility of magic is incredibly stupid (like D&D stupid) then mages end up failing completely if they cannot take out targets before they close in.

In a team game you would theoretically have a front line, but league tends to vary on actual teamwork.

A Superb Villain5 votes

My point exactly, and I understand your own concerns. It sucks when someone with AP can harass you and there is only so much that can be done in retaliation, but that situation, I feel, is balanced by the fact that once an AD champion has closed the gap, dying is a matter of when not if. Some AP champions have escapes, or slows, but more often than not, so do AD champions, and if desperation is included everyone has Flash.

I would also like to point out that your thoughts turned to the presence of other teammates, and in my mind that suggests the greater concern is not in closing the gap, but who might get in the way. More often than not, AP champions benefit more from the presence of other players than an AD champion, they need a meat-shield, to put it bluntly. The exception to this rule is ADCs.

All of the above does not really address your original question, which is why would AP champions need items of similar utility to AD champions when there is the issue of range. To that I say it is an incredibly delicate balance. Range is the buffer that keeps many AP champions alive. The more range is marginalized, i.e. introducing items that make it easier for melee to close the gap or survive harass, the less likely a ranged champion is to survive. The more items there are that make closing the gap safer the more the balance shifts from "how do I do my job as melee" to "how do I not die to a melee?"

Introducing items that counteract other items make it easier for parties to slide that balance in their favor, rather than making it a matter of time before one side overcomes the other.

Ralanr5 votes

So effectively, despite the power of range, we weaken the power every season? That would explain the hefty increase in Rylai's use.

Against mages I can sort of understand that, but I feel the gap between melee and range is increasing.

A Superb Villain5 votes

Honestly, I attribute the rise or Rylai's to simply being the better option. Health is nice, it's not guarantee of survival, but it does help, and all AP champions want more AP, since they rely so heavily on scaling. I remember when the the go-to items for AP damage dealing was Deathfire Grasp (rip), Zhonya's Hourglass, and Rabadon's Deathcap, because they were the only items that gave 120 AP. It was important to deal damage, and in exchange you would be squishy as hell, a trade off. This changed with Deathfire being swapped with Luden's, which was brought down to 100 AP, Zhonya's going down to 70 AP, with only Rabadon's staying the same. It prompts the question "why choose these items for pure damage when I can pick Rylai's that matches/exceeds them and gives me health?"

I am sure many people who mained AP champions remember this period and ask, "If it was so wrong for AP to do damage and be safe, why is it okay for AD?"

Ralanr2 votes

Hmm...would the best course of action be to increase the AP on many squishy mage items while also lowering the AP of Rylai's?

Basically reinforce the squishy mage carry and let AP bruisers have their items.

A Superb Villain4 votes

Well . . . yes, actually. That's why it's rare to see a 1:1 ratio on AP abilities. AP could be bought in large numbers thus making AP champions dangerous without making them overbearing. You want to do damage? Build damage, but don't expect to live if someone sneezes at you. Currently, there is slightly less AP available than there was before, but scalings have largely stayed the same, less damage overall and still squishy. Before, Rylai's was a luxury item, now it's just the better option, and AP champions are abusing it.

RocketRelm3 votes

Rabadon didn't stay the same, it got hefty price hike. In season 3 it was 3300 GP, now it's 3800 GP. The analogy mostly remains the same, though.

Papa Andrei4 votes

Random tangent here on DnD, I played it for the very first time as a wizard the other day, and ended up nonstop using lightning and turning my enemies into a sort of brain and guts soup. I am the Soup Wizard now

Big Lincoln20 votes

downboated for going against the mage circle jerk

why isn't this another buff karthus thread

Ralanr15 votes

Aww damn, I knew I was forgetting something.

Velzard of Koz15 votes

But why do AP champions need items equivalent to AD items when most of them have more range than AD champions? Sure marksmen are the exception here (as always apparently) but fighters and assassins have to get into melee range most of the time (some exceptions may apply).

I love how AP range is used as an argument but not the fact we have to aim most of our abilities. As Vel'Koz I have to predict where you may end up in order to use my E and If I want to slow you in advance, I have to aim Q. Even Ahri who can CC-lock you with one ability aims that ability. Meanwhile Xin, Melee Jayce, Jax, irelia jump on you with their point and click gapcloser and rape you by pressing several buttons.

Also most artilleries with range are rather immobile.

I mean, have you ever tried fighting someone with more reach than you? You either need to outrange them, hit them faster/harder from the same range, or close the gap to hit them.

Have you ever tried to play against highly mobile champ with gapcloser who rape you with three buttons within manner of seconds while you can easily miss your abilities with around 6 seconds cooldowns? And not be able to use your AAs to damage properly?

Ralanr6 votes

Good point. Divers tend to fuck up high ranged mages royally with their high speed gap closers.

Though I don't think the solution to that problem is healthy if we make mages solve it on their own. I feel this is a problem that teamwork needs to solve (and I know there are a lot of situations where your team isn't with you. Getting caught out sucks).

As a tank main, I've come to realize that I really need my team to act on my engages to win fights. I need my team to take out dangerous targets while I keep them distracted, or else I die and we lose the fight.

I need my team to help me out. It sucks, but that's the way the game is going.

Limrick2 votes

You shouldn't need your team to help you even survive a lane vs. an assassin/diver. In a teamfight, sure, but in lane it's supposed to be 1v1.

Ralanr6 votes

But you don't really need to kill your opponent in lane. Ever.

Limrick1 votes

You do as a mage. If you aren't ahead, you're worthless. Mages don't do anything once everyone is on equal footing. With some exceptions.Cassiopeia Viktor Velkoz

Handin Out Naps6 votes

That's complete bullshit. The only class in the game which actually requires kills to be useful is assassins. Everyone else just needs farm.

Marshbouy10 votes

Thank you. I'd rather not have Brand Veigar ETC being unkillable monsters because they have a ton of options for defense.

Keepe3 votes

Unkillable Monsters. Did someone say TANK VEIGAR!?

Hello again.

Ralanr1 votes

But I don't want to see darkness again.

ProtestantCaesar5 votes

Veigar You deny the darkness in your soul. You deny your power.

Sire Hippington7 votes

AkaliAnnie Annie AurelionSol Diana Ekko Elise Evelynn Fiddlesticks Fizz Galio Gragas Kassadin Katarina Kayle Kennen Lissandra Malzahar Ryze Swain Teemo Vladimir Yea, ap champs ALL have so much range.

Ashe Caitlyn Corki Ezreal Jayce Jinx KogMaw MissFortune Tristana Varus And poor AD are ALL so shortranged.

There are far to much shortranged APs to call them a mere exeption, and also to much high ranged ADs to call them such. One can't even say that Ap = burst and AD = dps anymore, the championpool is quite deverse in that regard and the item pool needs to be adjusted.

WinTheWarOnPants5 votes

it's not about "having the same items" the problem is that its a huge disparity 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 if you include item 3091 . not to mention that old maw and this new "edge of BS" item also counter the one armor item that mages can get. it give MR to counter their AP, dmg to help them kill, AND armor pen to counter any defenses the mage builds. on top of all that armor pen is far more accessible than magic pen AND AD's can build defenses much easier that AP's(sustain vs rotation based dmg) AND they already have more MR AD items that also are much better items than item 3157 because unlike zhonyas(which also got nerfed) maw and merc(edge of knight less so) are better items at all points of building it. in fact they have so much better parts that alot of the time you build multiple other items before you finish them. also like i said before MR is far more effective against AP than armor is against AD. also last point is all of these incredibly strong passive and actives("edge of BS" has a spell shield on a freaking 30sec CD) from the MR AD items don't require you to CC yourself in place to use making a bunch of lose lose situations for the zhonyas user. its not on Bard ult because its always good to be in stasis...

The Yetii Rider5 votes

The main thing to think about here is that AD assassins get their own items but AP assassins don't. AP assassins include Evelynn Ekko Fizz Akali Katarina Leblanc and of those champions only Leblanc is ranged.

Riot has said that burst mage items are used well by assassins but burst mages will never get defensive items.

Vekkna5 votes

There are tons of AP melees. Why are you pretending they just don't exist? AD =/= melee. AP =/= range.

Akali Alistar Amumu Diana Ekko Elise Evelynn Fizz Gragas Leona Malphite Maokai Mordekaiser Nautilus Sejuani TahmKench Zac Katarina Kassadin

Ralanr3 votes

Cause I've already said there are exceptions? I know there are melee AP champions, but my rant was more towards mages.

J Eevo2 votes

It's kind of unfair to defend ad itemization vs ap itemization, then focus on ranged AP vs melee AD, when both melee AP and ranged AD also exist in the game, and use the same items.

The Sword Saint4 votes

They don't.

/thread

Ralanr2 votes

I don't get why they think they should. I have a friend who plays mages in tabletop all the time and he complains a lot about how easy it is for him to die.

I'm just thinking, "Dude, the game needs some balancing points. There's a cost to having the ability to bend the universe with words and it involves not hitting the gym often."

The Sword Saint4 votes

{quoted}

I don't get why they think they should. I have a friend who plays mages in tabletop all the time and he complains a lot about how easy it is for him to die.

I'm just thinking, "Dude, the game needs some balancing points. There's a cost to having the ability to bend the universe with words and it involves not hitting the gym often."

'My class is designed to provide backline fire support and utility, but I also want to be the best at 1v1 any champion in addition to having siege, pick, and roam potential as well as self peel and intitation and disengage.'

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

Assassins, the class that these new items are being designed for, already have the ability to jump on the face of these mages even without these items. Giving them these items makes it so that when they jump on the face of the mage that they aren't risking much because their offensive item has a defensive component to make this all in safe rather than something planned out and made with risk involved.

BioticBrony4 votes

To assume that two classes who build two different stats and play largely different should have the same items as the other only shows ya have a lack of understanding in how champions actually do their jobs and the purpose of those items.

DeathBot6664 votes

Well, we don't need EVERY item to have an AP equivalent. (Imaging shooting 3 spells at once with an AP equivalence of item 3085)

Anivia But Annie When AurelionSol Virtually Brand Every Cassiopeia Mid Heimerdinger Laner Karma Has Leblanc Some Lissandra Form Lux Of Malzahar CC, Morgana An Orianna AP item 3140 Syndra Would Veigar Be Viktor Nice.

plus very few items have MR in them which can viably be built on most mages. Only item 3111 can be viable for any mid laner right now. (Excluding Cassiopeia) Items like item 3001 item 3174 and item 3065 are the only other things which is viable on a mid laner (And I'm stretching it adding spirit.) Meanwhile Abyssal is only beneficial to mid/short range AP people, Athene's is more of a support item now, so it's worthless without a shield or a heal, and spirit requires some form of regen for it to be worth it. As a Velkoz main, I find that if I don't have MR boots/runes, there isn't any MR for me to viably get.

Ralanr2 votes

I don't think mages are meant to build much MR.

DeathBot6662 votes

True, but building none at all is just going to make you to easily deleted.

Over Innsmouth3 votes

But why do AP champions need items equivalent to AD items when most of them have more range than AD champions?

Vladimir

narrows eyes

Ralanr2 votes

Some exceptions may apply.

Over Innsmouth7 votes

You're damn right. I don't outrange a snotfarbling caster minion.

Ralanr4 votes

Kinda feels like it when you drain my health...

RisenDarkKnight3 votes

The problem is that not all AD champs or all AP champs are the same. AD champs like Jayce and Varus have enormous range. AP champs like Diana, Akali, Evelynn, and others have rather short range.

Also, there is no AD and Armor item and there are 3 AD and MR items. I feel like as a melee champ (especially top) playing against a ranged AD top laner is much more annoying than playing against an AP top laner because you can buy 1 MR item and invalidate the AP champ (because they run out of cooldowns or mana), while buying 1 armor item is never enough versus a Marksman. item 3102 pretty much makes you unkillable as a tank or juggernaut vs an AP champ, but you need item 3143 item 3047 and another health or armor item to survive vs a ranged AD champ.

(the exception to the melee vs AP or AD top laner rule is Teemo because he plays like a marksman even if building AP usually).

Penns2 votes

Fizz item 3070

Ralanr3 votes

To be fair, Fizz does have the ability to avoid an assload of stuff.

There are always exceptions in topics between AD and AP though.

Nahui4 votes

It's not a talk of APvAD. An assassin is far different than a Mage. They balance AD/AP around classes, not around each other. But yeah, AP carry higher general damage and AD tends to be bulkier

Leo10242 votes

Most mages have a stun or root so as long as you dodge that you can all in without a problem, I play mages mid and whenever I'm up against them I wait for their cc to go on cool down because i know they're squishy and that's when they're vulnerable

Ralanr1 votes

Which is how it's supposed to go.

Leo10242 votes

So then what's the context of your post? Idk what the new item is so if it's about that then please explain

Niyumi2 votes

Akali Amumu Chogath Diana Ekko Elise Evelynn Fizz Gragas Kassadin Katarina Kennen Lissandra Maokai Mordekaiser Nidalee Rumble Singed Swain TahmKench Vladimir

Just saying, these guys are all AP, and all of them need to get up close and personal.

Ralanr3 votes

... Does no one see that I said there are exceptions?

Niyumi6 votes

So, if we say there are 130ish champs. Let's say half is AD, half is AP. If 21 out of 65 champs (~1/3) are melee, then that is not an exception. That's like saying every AD champ is an ADC, with a few exceptions.

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