Boards›Gameplay

The focus of items must shift away from AD shortly

Elohaven··7 votes·940 views

You may be looking at this thread and may be instantly disagreeing. I just wanted to open up a discussion.

For the past few patches, look at the impact ratio of AD-related items to AP-related ones. Most updates have mainly been beneficial to AD champions. With GA being updated, it also makes the item unviable for AP champions as well.

AD champions are getting so many good items that it makes AP champions seem lack luster. Look, I'm not saying the items AP champions are bad or need buffs. However, there should be as much itemization opportunity for them.

First off, AD champions can shred armor[their counter] easily with the items available to them. Black Cleaver, Lethality, Last Whisper, and Critical Strikes[Late game] are absurd. So what's the issue in relation with the burst of an AP champ? It's the amount of itemization to shred. AP champions don't have that much. I believe it's more of a correlation stylistically and lore-wise but there's simply magic penetration and abyssal scepter.

There's also a lack of lifesteal items for AP champs with them only having hextech gunblade. Compare this to the amount of items AD champions have. Don't believe me? There's Death Dance, Bloodthirster, BORK, Maw of Malmortious, Ravenous Hydra, Hextech Gunblade, Mercurials, and Doran's blade.

The amount of AP related items compared to AD related items is NOT an issue actually. However, in terms of VIABILITY, the issue stems from which champions can use said items.

What I want for AP champions is for the items to be as spread out as AD items.

About 2 items is all that's really needed. Maybe another new magic pen item and another lifesteal item would be sweet. Or perhaps an item that provides armor and AP. This will open up the grounds to new builds and champions as well. [Ever wanted an APC with as much lifesteal and damage output as an ADC? This is a chance to make it happen]

Thoughts?

33 Comments

Spoofghoul7 votes

The main issue i have with AD itemization is that it hardly has trade offs

Want sustain here have sustain with GARGANTUAN amount of AD item 3072 item 3812

You want some of the strongest defense alongside your sustain well ok that will cost you minor sustain and ad item 3139

You want to invalidate sustain? well that will cost you less then building sustain without sacrificing anything for it item 3123 vs item 1053

You want to shred through armor? ok then we will give you the biggest raw damage boost on top item 3036 50 ad + 15% damage is equal to having a 100 ad item come late game

If you want actual defense or sustain or whatever as ap you have to actually give up ap or something else for it AD doesn't really have this problem they get their AD regardless and pick the rest of the stats/passives/actives they want

Every other type of champion from support to tank to AP has to make trade offs but AD does not

Elohaven3 votes

{quoted}

The main issue i have with AD itemization is that it hardly has trade offs

Want sustain here have sustain with GARGANTUAN amount of AD item 3072 item 3812

You want some of the strongest defense alongside your sustain well ok that will cost you minor sustain and ad item 3139

You want to invalidate sustain? well that will cost you less then building sustain without sacrificing anything for it item 3123 vs item 1053

You want to shred through armor? ok then we will give you the biggest raw damage boost on top item 3036 50 ad + 15% damage is equal to having a 100 ad item come late game

If you want actual defense or sustain or whatever as ap you have to actually give up ap or something else for it AD doesn't really have this problem they get their AD regardless and pick the rest of the stats/passives/actives they want

Every other type of champion from support to tank to AP has to make trade offs but AD does not

I completely agree. AP has a lot more costs than AD.

Eedat1 votes

How are you gonna say AD has no trade offs then immediately mention LW items that are great against tanks but worthless against squishy champs? Please define what you consider a trade off because that seems like a blatantly obvious one lol

Spoofghoul2 votes

LDR 15% damage amp or roughly 45 - 55 Ad worth in a 300-350 ad build which is fairly common on adc

how is an item which gives the equivalent of 1.3 bloodthirsters worth of ad bad

the only thing a last whisper isn't great against is ADC themselves and even then you can still make a case for mortal reminder because it shits on your lifesteal.

dude ur a clown if you can't understand that

Eedat1 votes

LDR 15% damage amp

against tanks. It doesnt do anything against squishies holy hell. You should read what the item does lmao

Spoofghoul2 votes

I did read it and it doesn't say ''against tanks''

it says vs anyone with more health!

have you seen mage itemization and sup itemization and tank itemization?

everyone except another adc will have more health

pretty hard to grasp that concept isn't it

Eedat1 votes

building a item 3152 makes LDR do 4.5% bonus AD. WHEW! 4.5%! And here you are trying to claim 45-55.

Not only did you claim that, but you also claimed 45-55 AD was "1.3 bloodthirsters worth of AD"

how is an item which gives the equivalent of 1.3 bloodthirsters worth of ad bad

(Removed by moderation)

item 3072 = 75AD

1.3 item 3072 = 97.5

In your world:

45 AD = 97.5 AD LOL (Removed by Moderation)

Spoofghoul2 votes

but ofc you conveniently leave out the 50 ad from the item itself you can stop trolling now k it only makes you look more like a clown

Eedat1 votes

LDR 15% damage amp or roughly 45 - 55 Ad worth in a 300-350 ad build which is fairly common on adc

Nice try man xD

Slink away, just slink away lmao

Elohaven1 votes

They have less trade offs. Read.

Ralanr3 votes

Vladimir is the reason why you won't see another AP sustain item. It ends up being too integral to his balance and Riot decided they wanted to remove that in the MYMU.

As for another magic pen, technically you have one with wits end. Though wits end doesn't provide enough stats to really make it worth it for a melee magic champion (especially when it only helps you against other magic damage champions, which are usually ranged). If they gave Wits some health I'd see it built more.

Wînter Fox3 votes

  1. The AP items update came first. After the Mage update AP items were by far better and more fleshed out. Now its time for AD items, sorry.

  2. A lot of those armor pen items are and have been getting nerfed: Edge of Night, Ghostblade, Black Cleaver and Last Whisper. Are you jealous of nerfs?

  3. Your main concern is lack of lifesteal (spellvamp) which has a history of being a major issue on Mages. That has nothing to do with AD

TimX24968B2 votes

Looks at numbers on AD itemsitem 3812 item 3072 item 3031 item 3508 Looks at numbers on AP itemsitem 3089 item 3041 item 3027 item 3198 (all 3 of these fully stacked)item 3165 item 3285 item 3100

wtf I want a 100+ AD item...

LankPants2 votes

1AP=/=1AD.

This is obvious if you spend any time thinking about it. If you're a champ who has AP ratios equal to 2, then all of your damage is in your base damages and 2x your AP. If you're an AD champ with ratios equal to 2 then you get your bases, 2x your AD and also your AD for every AA you land.

This is also reflected in the cost of the stats, 1 AP costs 21.75 gold, 1 AD costs 35 gold.

Just to top it off as well several of the large AD items are being buffed to 80 AD, which actually puts them 1:1 in line with several big AP items like Liandry's, Voidstaff and Lichbane.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

1AP=/=1AD.

This is obvious if you spend any time thinking about it. If you're a champ who has AP ratios equal to 2, then all of your damage is in your base damages and 2x your AP. If you're an AD champ with ratios equal to 2 then you get your bases, 2x your AD and also your AD for every AA you land.

This is also reflected in the cost of the stats, 1 AP costs 21.75 gold, 1 AD costs 35 gold.

in contrast tho, magic damage is less easy to mitigate and MR is easier to reduce, AP scales harder as there is more of it in the game and more multipliers.

Elohaven3 votes

Compare the amount of armor pen and lethality items to magic penetration items. Armor is much easier to shred than MR.

Critical attacks scale harder than magic attacks.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Compare the amount of armor pen and lethality items to magic penetration items. Armor is much easier to shred than MR.

Critical attacks scale harder than magic attacks.

You cant lump all those stats together when the stats are purchased separately by different classes of champions. its a false comparison.

Assassins arent buying crit, or Armor reduction, just ad and lethality. ADC's that get Lethality arent getting crit and the ones that get AS and crit arent getting lethality, etc etc.

You can't just look at the list of AD items and ad up all the numbers together. you have to actually look at what these stats means.

Elohaven1 votes

But the point of this thread is not about classes.

It's about itemization in general for classes under those categories.

You have to actually look at my argument before insinuating ludicrous perspectives about what I'm saying.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

You cant look at items in a vacuum. The game isnt that binary. you have to look at all the systemic reasons for the items and what they provide, who can use them and what they are intended for. Saying "im not looking at classes" is basically conceding the point.

You are essentially admitting that even though I just explained to you that the discrepancy has a justification and that the comparison is false, that you simply "don't care".

its Idiotic.

Elohaven1 votes

Okay - you're not getting it clearly and are clearly ignorant with that last statement.

I'm not specifying any classes. If you see League as a datamodel, a tree of nodes will have AP and AD as two general core branches of the game. You're going deeper into those nodes and specifying while I'm generalizing. Yet you're trying to specify this champion has this vs this champion of this node has this.

That get us nowhere because champion classes are meant to excel at specific things.

I'm asking for options for types — not classes.

Elohaven2 votes

See, you say this but you're not looking at the issue.

I'm not talking about damage. I'm talking about itemization.

ADs get a lot more survivability than mages and barely make as much trade offs as AP champs. That's my point right there.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

See, you say this but you're not looking at the issue.

I'm not talking about damage. I'm talking about itemization.

AP champs have much more diverse and potent itemization. You can look at the large list of AD items and claim that quality over quantity but what you are forgetting is that these items are made for a large number of different classes among the list of AD champions that don't themselves all use said items.

Runnans, Rapid Fire Cannon and Triforce aren't items Zed if goign to build. Likewise, Caitlyn isn't gonna build Titanic Hydra, DuskBlade or Steraks

ADs get a lot more survivability than mages

AD by its nature has to have more survivability than AP because AD is more riskier/dangerous than AP. Even marksman have to constantly skirt around the the edge of the battle field to keep up consistent DPS. Mages (excluding battle mages who have in kit survivability) don't have this issue. the ones that do have it in their kits.

and barely make as much trade offs as AP champs. That's my point right there.

this is a blank statement with no substance. please elaborate instead of making empty assertions. How does AP make more trade offs than AD.

Elohaven1 votes

You're oblivious to my point. You're not reading correctly.

Stomping your points:

You're completely wrong. First off, the League page itself showcases there's a lot more AD items than AP champions when you remove support items and utility based ones. In comparison to the decrease of AP items when you remove support items, AD hardly decreases.

I'm not talking about champions. I'm talking about freedom of itemization. You hardly see as much diversity for itemization on AP champs than AD champs.

I never said anything about classes.

AP champs have to give up a lot more damage for lifesteal or sustain. They definitely have less sustain, have lower scaling, less shredding/resistance bypass unlike most AD champions, and less options for damage v surviability. If they want to survive they sacrifice way more damage than AD champions.

Squishy ADC, black cleaver or BORK or GA. Squishy AP, can't use GA or you lose an item slot of damage and health[I'm including update]. You can go Rylal's or Rod but you don't shred MR or bypass it like most AD champs.

Darius and Zed don't use crit but they can still burst down a tank. Shyvanna has a alot of itemization potential as well and the list goes on.

Point is — everything you listed is irrelevant to my point and thus holds no value to the discussion. If you want to cry about classes, then I can easily say that all AP champions are mages and can't use [insert blah blah here]. But I won't because this is not what it's about.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

You're oblivious to my point. You're not reading correctly.

Stomping your points:

You're completely wrong. First off, the League page itself showcases there's a lot more AD items than AP champions when you remove support items and utility based ones. In comparison to the decrease of AP items when you remove support items, AD hardly decreases.

I'm not talking about champions. I'm talking about freedom of itemization. You hardly see as much diversity for itemization on AP champs than AD champs.

See this is exactly my point. I didn't miss anything. My point is that the very argument you are making is asinine. More AD items doesn't mean anythign because unlike AP, these AD items aren't options across all AD champions. AD Champs dont have more options than AP at all because they are pigeon held into certain items whereas AP champs have virtually the entirely of the list to pick from.

I never said anything about classes.

I never said you did. and clearly u didnt do more than briefly gloss over my post of you came to this conclusion. the reason i brought up classes is because it is freaking relevant to the point i am making.

AP champs have to give up a lot more damage for lifesteal or sustain. They definitely have less sustain,

No they dont. AP is basically not even given the option of lifesteal and sustain whatsoever. They cant be allowed to get it withotu ti being ridiculous on them given they much higher range and safety and utility on top of much higher flat scaling. This is why sustain magic damage dealers are reserved almost entirely to specific kit by kit basis.

This sis imply something you have to accept as an AP champion.

have lower scaling, False. As I have already demonstrated, Magic damage in not only more efficient to mitigate but also scales more than twice over what AD does.

less shredding/resistance bypass unlike most AD champions,

AD champs NEED more options to mitigate Armor becaus enot only is it more abundant than MR, but each type of AD champ needs a different means of doign so.

You are trying to kid yourself into believing an ad Champion can have all of the options when 2/3rds of them aren't even usable on any given ad champion.

The only real optiosn for mitigating armor are Last Whisper and its upgrades and black cleaver, neithe rof which are taileored to the same type of user at all.

Lethality is NOT an option for mitigating armor as its entire purpose it to be used on targets with little to NO armor.

and less options for damage v surviability.

AP itemisation has WAY more. You get items like Rod of Ages, Protobelt, Frost Cannon, Abyssal Scepter (which is now getting changed to fkin banshees veil) Zhonyas, (literally the most powerful active in the game as it literally make syou invisible at the press of a button, Seraph's which gives you a fat as fuck shield base don your total mana, and frakign Rylais, which is a much better buy than Frozen Mallet even AFTER the nerfs.

What do AD champions have?!? Edge of Night?

If they want to survive they sacrifice way more damage than AD champions.

They really don't.

Squishy ADC, black cleaver or BORK or GA.

the only squishy ADC getting Cleaver is lucian, and only because he can abuse it with how his kit works.

And GA is an option for every champ in the game.

Squishy AP, can't use GA or you lose an item slot of damage and health[I'm including update].

Shitty argument update not withstanding. 30 AD versus an actual item is still giving up a lot of damage on any ad champion, especially for only 40 armor.

It isn't much better a buy on AD than it is on AP regardless. (no, it havign AD added doesn't magically make it unviable on AP. they were betting it before when ti gave no offensive stats whatsoever)

You can go Rylal's or Rod but you don't shred MR or bypass it like most AD champs.

Again, VoidStaff, unlike last Whisper ignores TOTAL MR, and only takes 1 item slot. ther eis far less MR in the game than Armor. AP scales more than twice that of AD.

You do the math.

Also, you literally ignored like 10 defensive items AP champs have. I listed them before so i wont repeat myself.

Darius and Zed don't use crit but they can still burst down a tank.

Zed cant bust down a tank. Please stop with your outright lies at this point. Darius is a Juggernaut. those guys arent meant to be fought 1v1 in melee range. They are meant to eb kited.

Shyvanna has a alot of itemization potential as well and the list goes on.

you are literally resorting to making "nothing" statements at this point. When i opened this reply, i was expecting a well throughout response but I got the cheapest most shallow piece of victim complex and circle kjerk i have seen on this site so far and I am utterly dispapointed.

You wanna know who has more itemzation options than Shyvanna? Chogath... an AP champion. it literally doesn't mean anything.

Point is — everything you listed is irrelevant to my point and thus holds no value to the discussion. If you want to cry about classes, then I can easily say that all AP champions are mages and can't use [insert blah blah here]. But I won't because this is not what it's about.

"You post means nothing because i say it does! Actually counter the points you made? what you expect me to actually posit real arguments? The hell do you think this is? I am right and you are wrong! blah blah blah im not listening! lalalaa"

this is legit what you sound like.

Please if you have nothing worth bringing to the discussion, don't bother wasting either of our time.

Elohaven1 votes

"Runnans, Rapid Fire Cannon and Triforce aren't items Zed if goign to build. Likewise, Caitlyn isn't gonna build Titanic Hydra, DuskBlade or Steraks" --You

"I never said you did. and clearly u didnt do more than briefly gloss over my post of you came to this conclusion. the reason i brought up classes is because it is freaking relevant to the point i am making" --You

Yeah, you're trying to make a point here but the issue is that it's counterintuitive. I'm not talking about individual classes using items which you are using to support your thesis.

Thus, your counterargument is thrown out the window simply because it's not countering the topic I am discussing. Hence I said your argument is invalid. It is not a proper antithesis.

I said more itemizing opportunity for AP champs but did I say they had to work for all AP champs? No. There should more options to get through magic resist and sustain in lane. You complain AP champs burst you but also AD champs and they have more sustain.

Darius can do 2K true damage when he stacks his passive. You can't tell me that's not burst when the literal definition is a massive amount of damage in a small timeframe. You clearly don't understand the definition.

Zed can't burst down tanks? Since when couldn't he? He can if he builds last whisper and takes away 55-60% of the tank's health.

"victim complex and circle kjerk i have seen on this site so far and I am utterly dispapointed" --You

I'm amazed because I play AD champions most of the time based on my match history. Go figure. And I'm not calling out any champions specifically. I shall sarcastically say you're a very analytical individual.

Cho'gath has more itemization that Shyvanna? They made health way more viable on him that AP isn't as good anymore. Shyvanna definitely has more itemization opportunity since she's a bruiser while Cho'gath is a tank.

"Again, VoidStaff, unlike last Whisper ignores TOTAL MR, and only takes 1 item slot. ther eis far less MR in the game than Armor. AP scales more than twice that of AD."

This without a doubt is the dumbest shit I've seen. It ignores total MR? It ignores all your MR? Stop bullshitting with false statistics. Void Staff has 35% magic penetration. Last Whisper has 45% armor penetration? And I'm bullshitting myself with my statements?

Your hypocrisy is ridiculous.

There are 3 more armor items than MR items in league but let's look at the item actives of those items. Undoubtedly they help stop a lot of AP damage which comes from skills. Ooh, two items that completely block abilities. An item that gives me a shield and a heal. An item that completely shuts down magic damage in lane. With AD, there really isn't much you can do to stop their skills.

Let's look at the shields[which protect against all types of damage with the exception of a few abilities/items] on items like bloodthirster as well.

So yes, you are incorrect. You're spouting nonsense and I can't take your posts seriously.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

With GA being updated, it also makes the item unviable for AP champions as well.

How?

it gained AD (which is a stat that isn't even really useless on AP) It didnt lose AP that ti never had.

Also, in case you havent noticed, the big doozy here is the new Banshee's and abyssal scepters. zzzzz

Elohaven2 votes

They're taking away its defensive stats to make it more attacker-friendly. Thus, the item's only asset to serve AP champions is its passive.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

that isn't the same as "making it useless on AP champs" tho.

Mataka Tek2 votes

Quick Silver Sash and items that use QSS aregreat items because it has so much AD and blocks spells without even affecting the ability to damage the opponent. Its interesting that QSS has AD and Banshee Veil has no AP.

Its also interesting that AD champs get Critical Hits, and AP champs do not which is why they outscale.

FiddlesOnTheRoof1 votes

new banshee's veil is gonna be sick for ap champions

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

This bias was subtle years ago, till the marksmen update, and painfully obnoxious with the mage 'update'.

Frightning1 votes

They can't fix AP itemization to be good without re-exposing the busted nature of many AP designs. Many of them are anti-fun delete machines, and if their items were actually good, it would be like seasons 1-3 Annie and friends all over again (I was around for old school burst mages, that shit was disgustingness on stilts...as fun as it was to play as).

So, look forward to the mage class update at some point in the future. Then you might see AP items become good again, and you might also see some really neat mage designs from reworks too.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Elohaven

"We're basing our next champion on Vayne" -- Riot
Memes & Games68 comments
143
votes
ADC mains want ADCs nerfed just so...
Gameplay73 comments
125
votes
Upvote this Lee Sin complaint thread
Gameplay30 comments
108
votes
@Meddler The excuse you won't buff towers due to snowball is a bad one
Gameplay34 comments
95
votes
PSA | Riot and the Boards lost the goal of the ADC nerfs
Gameplay80 comments
93
votes
Well, this is quite the beauty
Story, Art, & Sound25 comments
92
votes