Why do champions like Shen and Singed still have no scaling MR?

InSingedWeTrust·Apr 22, 2015·112 votes·5,994 views

I can ALMOST understand Singed with his ult, but what's the excuse for Shen? Even Galio has scaling MR... I don't get it.

91 Comments

ThefriendlyorcApr 22, 201531 votes

As a Singed player, having to buy 2 MR items just to break 100 mr is painful.

InSingedWeTrustApr 22, 201515 votes

{quoted}

As a Singed player, having to buy 2 MR items just to break 100 mr is painful.

EXACTLY.

TenSlashTenApr 23, 20153 votes

used to be 1 item with force of nature. RIP best tank item in game that actually was useful in assassin/mage meta. Rip rip.

TwoDApr 23, 20152 votes

yeah i miss fon too

x No HeartMay 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

As a Singed player, having to buy 2 MR items just to break 100 mr is painful.

/thread

Fried NoobApr 22, 201514 votes

Because FoN was a thing and they haven't bothered to update them.

WeFlyNoLieApr 22, 20154 votes

^This

Back in the day any tank worth their salt was building Force of Nature. Gave you everything you needed and then some.

In Shen's case though, I think there's more to it than that.

rebound2Apr 22, 201514 votes

Riot Balance Team Member 1: "They know about the scaling MR, maybe if we're careful, we can just quietly put some onto Shen and Singed without her noticing." Riot Balance Team Member 2: "You know what she will do to us if she finds out!" Riot Balance Team Member 3: "Quiet! She is coming back!"

Leblanc : "WHO SAID SOMETHING ABOUT GIVING SHEN AND SINGED SCALING MAGIC RESIST? DO YOU WANT TO BE SLAIN?" Leblanc : Holds her staff up to Riot Balance Team Member 1's face. Leblanc : "You will not add scaling magic resist to ANY CHAMPIONS, got that?"

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbApr 22, 20153 votes

In what world does LB want to try bursting Singed?

Curling VeigarApr 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Riot Balance Team Member 1: "They know about the scaling MR, maybe if we're careful, we can just quietly put some onto Shen and Singed without her noticing." Riot Balance Team Member 2: "You know what she will do to us if she finds out!" Riot Balance Team Member 3: "Quiet! She is coming back!"

: "WHO SAID SOMETHING ABOUT GIVING SHEN AND SINGED SCALING MAGIC RESIST? DO YOU WANT TO BE SLAIN?" : Holds her staff up to Riot Balance Team Member 1's face. : "You will not add scaling magic resist to ANY CHAMPIONS, got that?"

but Leblanc sucks ass now.

Sir ArmaMalumApr 22, 20159 votes

Singed has scaling health with his passive, assuming you build mana of course. MR can be treated as effective health, so that's where that went.

Shen I'm also not too sure about, I'm assuming it's just because he's just in a bit of a mess right now.

Blaine TogApr 22, 201531 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir ArmaMalum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eaf3e6Pn,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-22T17:13:42.409+0000)

Singed has scaling health with his passive, assuming you build mana of course. MR can be treated as effective health, so that's where that went.

You're probably right, but at the same time that's his passive. You're supposed to get a benefit from your passive. It's not just supposed to be a rewording of your base stats.

VikaryousApr 22, 201519 votes

Not in Riot-land. Look at any champion with a stat passive; Diana and her abysmal base AS for example. They all pay for them.

Blaine TogApr 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Not in Riot-land. Look at any champion with a stat passive; Diana and her abysmal base AS for example. They all pay for them.

;_;

Remlap1223Apr 22, 20156 votes

Anivia Lowest health in the game because she has a revive passive that you deal true damage to at level 1-4, and amplified damage until level 12. Ashe Shit attack scaling (of course, that's because Ashe was single-handedly responsible for today's mobility creep) Azir Had shit attack speed on launch (as well as being the most buggy champion released) and still has shit attack speed scaling Bard I don't even know where to begin with Bard Gangplank The worst attack speed scaling out of all the bruisers because he has an attack damage steriod. Yes, like Fiora. No, she doesn't have shit attack speed. Yes she has a huge attack speed steroid in her kit too. Yes, she also has a passive damage steroid in her kit too. Quinn Still have no idea why Quinn's attack range is so low. Sion Trash health scaling on release, still's pretty bad. Sivir Horrid mana scaling, and horrid attack range and scaling because of a movement speed passive. Meanwhile Vayne.

I wouldn't hate the fact that Riot does this shit as much as long as they were consistent. Fiora Irelia MasterYi Tryndamere don't pay for their free stats, yet all of the above do.

Zair UmbrasApr 22, 201513 votes

Wut.

Anivia has high CC, high damage, and a revive passive, which makes her health fine.

Ashe is the original ADC of the game and has had that issue forever, but she's also had the most CC out of all the ADC's, a passive that lets her crit, and free gold to rush damage items.

Azir has bad attack speed because of how his kit works. You can have two soldiers attack at once. If Yorick's Ghouls or Malz's void spawn scaled with their attack speed, I'm sure they'd have low attack speeds too.

Bard was released weak because they're trying not to release champions that are broken from the beginning. Bard is fine right now though since he's a UTILITY champ and requires a high amount of Mechanical skill. We rarely saw Vayne because of her own mechanical skill requirements as well as positioning skill and we still don't see her often.

Gangplank has his Q that can crit, bonus AD, a slow on each attack, a CC remover that's also a heal, plus his bonus AD also gives movement speed. He's not meant to AA some one, he's meant to shoot them with his pistol and walk away.

Quinn's range is low because she has an interrupt that works as .75s stun, but because it's a displacement, it can't be reduced by tentacity, plus she has a blind, a damage boost that also gives MS and AS... Plus her R is a huge steroid with your W leveled.

Sion can get a free warmogs in a 25ish minute game if he farms properly and unlike Cho, killing him doesn't stop that. Trade a hundred health or two for eight hundred or so.

Sivir has HUGE damage with her Q, a huge steroid on three attacks that'll bounce to others, a spell shield, and a huge movement speed steroid. Mana is going to be an issue and I'm surprised you didn't mention Varus who works the exact same way, except he has a snare instead of a movement speed buff.

Fiora's trade off for stats is the fact she's not only melee, but all of her damage is in AA's, has a near useless passive, her W only stops a single AA, and her ult's range is utter garbage.

Tryn's issue is similar to Fiora where he's a melee carry. Yi is in the exact same boat.

Irelia has been an off and on champion since release. Popular, unpopular, popular, unpopular. She has no actual 'free stats' other than tenacity so she can stick to targets harder. Use displacements and laugh?

MysticFlameHazeApr 23, 20151 votes

i have to say that i don't agree with what you say about fiora's passive, it is one of the huge reasons she wins 1v1s, because she has that built in heal, just like xin with his W and its the same as WW's passive which also becomes impossible to kill when he builds lifesteal.

Zair UmbrasApr 23, 20152 votes

Fiora wins duels because she has a lot of damage. Her insignificant passive has been the victim of thousands passive jokes. It does 'Her Level+7 over 6 seconds" and it stacks up to 4 against champions. It's not horrible, but it's not making her win trades. She usually doesn't get under half health during trades and her tiny amount of regen isn't the cause of that.

Bethor KookalianApr 22, 20157 votes

Starting from the top:

Anivia has a passive that effectively -doubles-(roughly, considering the resist debuff at early levels) her health pool in a burst situation when it's up. Her health pool is not halved to compensate, and she in fact only pays about 50-150 HP as a 'cost' for this, which is stupidly minor for a GA-effect.

Ashe has very middle-of-the-road AD at level 1 and while her lvl 18 AD is bottom-barrel, that's by literally .5 AD compared to the next people on the list. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Azir was something incredibly new, and Riot was conservative with certain stats in order to make sure he wasn't OP on launch. He was actually a bit OP anyway, but they decided making his AS more normal was a reasonable compensation buff for the heavy nerfs he took. Also, if you're ignoring kit steroids, he's got better scaling AS than Jinx , ironic, no?

Bard He's very experimental, expect him to be wonky. I like that Riot is willing to do that with new champions.

Gangplank has very normal base/scaling AS, not sure what the hell you're talking about here.

Quinn is supposed to be something different, and Riot really hasn't figured out what she's supposed to be. Something of a failure, sure, but Sivir, Lucian, and Graves can all handle it, so I really don't think her problems are because of her ranged auto range.

Sion is....ok, I'll grant you that his base stats do pay for how overall tanky he is, but between his W passive and the 10% HP scaling on his shield, he's RIDICULOUSLY tanky, so I'm ok with that in this case. This is the first on the list where the champion is actually 'paying' for their kit in base stats.

Sivir 's base and growth mana and MP5 are stronger than almost every other ADC, on top of having a spell shield that adds to the mana she can use. Sivir is also more viable than Vayne right now, so I don't really see a point there.

I'm not even going to address the last part because you've failed to show the pattern that forms the premise of that paragraph. I will however point out that Riot doesn't need a standard on how to deal with this because every champion is different and every champion needs different things to be good but not oppressive. Expecting uniformity of base/growth stats is ridiculous(although discussing if an individual like Shen should get MR/level is certainly reasonable if he needs buffing).

Champion SkinApr 23, 20151 votes

Well actually it might be a good idea to buff Azir AS even more and nerf his AP ratios and such As this would push him into buying more attack speed (the higher base attack speed the better attack speed items are) and it would push him more into sustained damage and away from burst/poke damage

This would potentially weaken him early and make him stronger later on in the game and put him as that late game carry riot seemed to push him as

Bethor KookalianApr 23, 20152 votes

If I was buffing Azir's AS, I'd buff his CDR->AS ratio at later levels, so that it wouldn't be available early(when raw stats can be overbearing) and could fit his scaling theme properly.

Champion SkinApr 23, 20151 votes

Well attack speed is a really weird stat... in that it can be amazing or useless.... if you don't have enough attack speed to get an extra attack in then it basically does nothing... but if you do it can be really good

Bethor KookalianApr 23, 20151 votes

It also:

1.Affects the window of your same # of attacks happen in, so if it takes 2 autos to kill the Graves, but at 1.1 AS, you die for it, but at 1.3 AS, you're able to avoid death because Graves died right before he could do that last bit of damage to you, then the AS saved your life.

2.Affects the lost window of time spent autoing. Basically, Azir's autos take say....., .2s to fire at lvl 1. Later, if he's accumalated 100% AS from everywhere, his autos would then take a shorter amount of time to fire, I think its usually such that doubling your AS halves your time spent autoing, so .1s to fire.(The "seconds to fire" statistic is estimated, I don't know the real value, but didn't think it was relevant). This means you can spend more time doing other things, like moving.

ProfDrDeathApr 23, 20152 votes

Sion :

For Sion, you have to keep one thing in mind: Sion's lower base health is there to better distinguish between the the low case, average case and high case. To get comparable numbers as your out-of-the-mill tank, he just needs around 10 CS per level, with one of the 10 ideally being a Cannon. Also, remember that these figures do not include kills and assists, which each are worth 10 HP, too (like big minions and monsters).

Low case, aka you deny him all game and he just cannot farm W stacks aka <10 CS/lvl and no kills: Sion will have lower health than comparable bruisers if he is behind and indeed punished for his health stacking passive. However, this is intended as a reward for you properly playing against a limitlessly healthstacking . Average case, aka around 10 CS/lvl: Sion's tankiness is comparable to most other tanks in the game (93 to 101 HP/level). High case, way more than 10 CS/lvl: Raidboss time.

RazorTSApr 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

:

For Sion, you have to keep one thing in mind: Sion's lower base health is there to better distinguish between the the low case, average case and high case. To get comparable numbers as your out-of-the-mill tank, he just needs around 10 CS per level, with one of the 10 ideally being a Cannon. Also, remember that these figures do not include kills and assists, which each are worth 10 HP, too (like big minions and monsters).

Low case, aka you deny him all game and he just cannot farm W stacks aka <10 CS/lvl and no kills: Sion will have lower health than comparable bruisers if he is behind and indeed punished for his health stacking passive. However, this is intended as a reward for you properly playing against a limitlessly healthstacking . Average case, aka around 10 CS/lvl: Sion's tankiness is comparable to most other tanks in the game (93 to 101 HP/level). High case, way more than 10 CS/lvl: Raidboss time.

i kinda agree with his sion part, before his rework he had highest base hp on top of his passive, hell you need to get almost 600 on your passive to get to his old hp levels

AelvrApr 22, 20155 votes

Even worse is when they punish champions for the items they tend to synergize well with and usually buy.

Spacesuit SpiffApr 23, 20152 votes

They use passives to determine what a champ scales with. Diana -AS scaling Poppy -tank stats scaling, +sustain scaling I could list more, but the point is that passives like this allow them to create champs that work specific ways. Diana gets decent attack speed to start with, but it doesn't scale well. Poppy has a lot of effective health, but can't build tank to multiply that (she can still build tank, but it's a waste on a champ that scales ridiculously hard with absolutely everything else). Sure it's nice to think "wouldn't it be crazy if you could exploit this the way they want you not to?" but then they'd be overpowered and have to be nerfed some other way.

Bethor KookalianApr 23, 20152 votes

In Riot-land, champions are nerfed and buffed according to their strengths and weaknesses, to form a good game. Sometimes this results in things that, when taken out of context, sound funny, but when the context is provided, make sense.

To look at Diana specifically, chamions with lower non-kit AS than Diana include(not inclusive, but meant to make a point):

Azir, Syndra, Cho'Gath, Lulu(equal, but I'm calling it out here), Leblanc, Jinx, and Skarner.

Corki has an additional .85% AS on Diana, but lacks a kit steroid, making Diana come out 19.15% AS ahead of Corki before items.

Basically, Diana doesn't have an abysmal base AS, she has a reasonably normal one that's on the low end of the spectrum compared to the full champion pool, but more middle-to-high end of the spectrum when only compared to things she should be compared against. And then she has an AS passive to boot that puts her at a higher lvl 1 total AS than almost everyone.

Basically, in Riot-land, things make sense.

ShinjusukeApr 23, 20152 votes

no get out nobody likes logical arguments supporting Riot's decisions.

Burn the non-hater. Burn him!

MinrogApr 23, 20151 votes

It's been a while since I played Corki , but isn't his passive a % true damage scaler off of his Attack Damage stat? That is a kit steroid, admittedly dumb because he's half magic/half physical, but it still would count as scaling booster.

Bethor KookalianApr 23, 20151 votes

Yes, but I'm just comparing AS because the guy I'm responding to made the claim that Diana pays for her AS passive with abysmal base AS. If I was doing a more complicated and realistic comparison between Diana and Corki....well I wouldn't be, honestly :P They're not really comparable since Diana is an AP Assassin/Bruiser while Corki is a Marksman(maybe also a poke mage).

Ariel the CruelApr 23, 20152 votes

Lissandra Free spell every [up to] 12 seconds. Above average mana costs. Below average mana pool. Worst mana regen in the game (ties with Darius at lvl 18).

Don't get me wrong; her passive is stupid powerful early/mid game. And is the primary reason she was able to survive league of manaless mid/top laners. But she pays out the nose for it.

RazorTSApr 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir ArmaMalum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eaf3e6Pn,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-22T17:13:42.409+0000)

Singed has scaling health with his passive, assuming you build mana of course. MR can be treated as effective health, so that's where that went.

Shen I'm also not too sure about, I'm assuming it's just because he's just in a bit of a mess right now.

well kinda, but you know at 3000 hp getting just that 10 mr is same like getting 300hp, going to 50mr bumps that to 1500 eHP

Sir ArmaMalumApr 23, 20152 votes

Not exactly, since you start with 30 and (I assume) get it through runes/masteries as well diminishing returns will bring that number down.

RazorTSApr 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir ArmaMalum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eaf3e6Pn,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2015-04-23T13:25:43.975+0000)

Not exactly, since you start with 30 and (I assume) get it through runes/masteries as well diminishing returns will bring that number down.

not sure what you mean by that, but the thing is 1 point in (effective) armor or mr equals to 1% eHP and THAT is a fact, i meant extra btw, doesn't matter how much you have already, 2000hp 30 (effective) mr is 2600 eHP, 40 is 2800 eHP, there is no diminishing returns to defenses, only that bigger number of it will get shredded by items and skills but that that fact doesn't make defenses suddenly have "diminishing" returns

Sir ArmaMalumApr 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

not sure what you mean by that, but the thing is 1 point in (effective) armor or mr equals to 1% eHP and THAT is a fact, i meant extra btw, doesn't matter how much you have already, 2000hp 30 (effective) mr is 2600 eHP, 40 is 2800 eHP, there is no diminishing returns to defenses, only that bigger number of it will get shredded by items and skills but that that fact doesn't make defenses suddenly have "diminishing" returns

Bah, did the math myself and you're right. I will bow out gracefully

RazorTSApr 23, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir ArmaMalum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eaf3e6Pn,comment-id=00000002000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-23T14:13:34.242+0000)

Bah, did the math myself and you're right. I will bow out gracefully

just spreading knowledge, no need for bows, tell your friends too! So many people have misconception about how armor actually works.

FafliXApr 23, 20152 votes

There are no diminishing returns for Armor and MR. That is a myth. Every point of Armor/MR makes your HP 1% more effective.

Photos of GhostsApr 23, 20151 votes

Hem hem. 1% of what you see on your hp bar, not of the total counting what you already added that way. Each time you add one point, there's more difference between the two and as such the next one will be less efficient. Let's add 100 armor each time. Date A: 1000 visualized hp, 0 armor. 1000 actual hp for physical damage = 100% of your visualized hp (100+0 from armor). Date B: 1000 visualized hp, 100 armor. 2000 actual hp for physical damage = 200% of your visualized hp (100+100 from armor) = 200% of your actual hp for physical damage at date A. Date C: 1000 visualized hp, 200 armor. 3000 actual hp for physical damage = 300% of your visualized hp = 150% of your actual hp for physical damage at date B. Date D: 1000 visualized hp, 300 armor. 4000 actual hp for physical damage = 300% of your visualized hp = 133% of your actual hp for physical damage at date C.

As you can see, each point of resistance grants you 1% of your visualised HP, but not 1% of your actual HP for that type of damage. The more you buy, the less you gain compared to what you already have. Thus, resistance reduction/penetration of ANY kind except pure damage amplification is more efficient against people with low resistances since the lower points of resistance represent a bigger percentage of their actual health for that type of damage.

The first 100 armor grant you 50% damage reduction. If there were no diminishing returns, the second 100 armor would also give you 50% damage reduction for a total of 100% damage reduction. But no, each percentual point scales multiplicatively with the previous one. You can't get to 100% damage reduction. To reduce incoming damage by a same percentage of the current value (not only of the original one) over and over, you must buy each time more armor.

FafliXMay 13, 20151 votes

Soory, but this is just untrue. Of cause, if you compare it in %, you see less. But the actual effective HP increase by the same amount for every point of armor.

If you add 2+2 you increase by 100%. If you add 4+2 you increase by 50%. If you add 6+2 you increase by 33%.

That is just how percentages work, but the added value is the same every time.

Photos of GhostsMay 13, 20151 votes

Exactly what I said. You gain each time the same flat value, which is each time a lower percent of what you already have. Thus, it gets less effective. Thus, reducing low points of resistances is more important than reducing high points. Resistance reduction hurts squishies, not tanks.

FafliXMay 14, 20151 votes

No it does NOT get less effective. It is linear scaling. If you have one apple and get another one, you will have 100% more apples. If you get a third one, you will have 50% more apples. So you want to tell me that the thrird apple is worth less than the second one? Of cause not, they are both one apple. That is basic math. Percentage increase does not represent the actual increase. Please don´t embarrass yourself anymore. Don´t try to argue about math if you have no idea of it.

OnanThaManApr 22, 20153 votes

Shen is slated for a gameplay update/ minor rework if i'm not mistaken. Maybe then he'll get it.

RastilanApr 22, 20152 votes

Because people don't like Singed.. Thus he must remain a weak pick.

:( R.I.P Singed and FON

Teridax68Apr 23, 20152 votes

I think the original argument was that they were intended to have gaps in their stats that they'd have to fill out with items, but Xypherous also mentioned it's likely not the best way to implement that either. For Singed specifically, though, I think it's because his ultimate gives him MR, and too much innate magic resistance would perhaps make it excessively difficult for mages to damage him (he already has a lot of health via his passive, which lets him soak up mages' burst damage).

ThefriendlyorcApr 24, 20151 votes

That Passive of his doesnt grant him that much HP. At most its like 250? Maybe... 400 if he builds a tear and ROA? In the grand scheme of things, thats a single spell late game.

Big Bang BobApr 23, 20152 votes

Because then they would be hard to kill. How am I suppose to kill him in 3 seconds if he has mr?

I mean, it's not like they HAVE to be hard to kill.

qetzelApr 23, 20152 votes

Galio got scaling MR when the first nerfs to Athene's went through. He was given them because he was already in a fairly weak state and was more nerfed by the changes than anyone else.

Singed has no scaling MR because a) He has extra stats on his ultimate b) His passive gives him extra health.

While these should benefit him they should do so in a way that is fair for his magic damage dealing opponents. As I understand it, given that magic damage is typically lower over time than physical damage and higher in burst. Magic resist is therefore "better" than armour in that each point of magic resist does more work. If you can survive the mages first blast you have a few seconds to get to them and stop them having a second. If you survive an adcs they have more and more and more coming at you.

The other champions that don't get MR per level are: Kassadin, Maokai, Poppy, and Yasuo.

Notice that all of them have built into their kit some way of mitigating burst and poke either on a short cooldown or constantly. Maokai has damage reduction and regular heals, Kassading ignores a portion of MR and has a magic shield, Poppy has her passive, and Yasuo has his shield.

Singed has MR on his ultimate, regen on his ultimate and health from his passive. All mitigate burst and poke. Shen has near constant healing from his Q and a fairly spammable self shield. These heavily mitigate poke.

That is my guess. This does make me wonder why Fizz gets MR/level although I suppose he reacts to it rather than just has it happen and also has it on a marginally longer cooldown.

MinrogApr 23, 20151 votes

Shen only gets healing from his Q if he is jungling, and you can't use your self-shield in fights with players because of the Energy costs involved.

I think Shen doesn't have MR/level scaling because his ultimate is frustrating in Solo Q and they want to make sure he isn't being played. He's like Evelynn.

qetzelApr 23, 20151 votes

Old Shen was practically immoveable thanks to the healing from Q and his shield. He was incredibly strong at on point.