Assassins are made to capitalize on mistakes, catch out opponents, but are vulnerable in teamfights.
...All things SoloQ has but LCS players will never allow.
A mage nerf won't stop them from being picked in LCS.
Slythion10 votesbecause that would literally be a move designed to destroy the very identity of assassins as a class? Do you think destroying the design of a whole class just to make them more viable is really the best idea?
jocomotion1 votesI just got a funny little image in my head of 
saying “all right team you ready to fight together!?” And an Alistar looking at him confused.
But yeah the main point of assassins is to be the solo playmaker, if anything they should be more solo lane dominant rather than team fight dominant.
LordGeovanni1 votesI dont agree with this I believe that assassins have a place in a team fight and that their place is to go in and burst down an adc or mage or Enchanter (their choice) but not through shields and peel thus they should enter after the fight has already started and the initial round of spells have been casted. But what stops this from happening is that adcs damage is too high And Mages damage is also too high and they dont have cooldowns gating them. I also think that assassins should have super weak base damage lots of total ad scaling and the longest cooldowns for each spell on average in the game and not get free excapes after they kill some one (maybe as a neiche but not in general) (this paragraph has nothing to do with how they exist now but rather how they can get to that place that i mentioned should be their niche now while still being fair to play against)
verysalt2 votesbecause that would literally be a move designed to destroy the very identity of assassins as a class? Do you think destroying the design of a whole class just to make them more viable is really the best idea?
So you think it is a better option to destroy mage class?
Slythion1 votesI'm genuinely interested in how you plan to argue that the very identity of mages as an entire class have been destroyed my simple mana changes
I'll admit I'm slightly annoyed you even thought this would be a good rebuttal, but I've been wrong before. So let's hear it, how has the mage class as a whole lost their identity?
Slythrin Umbreon4 votesBecause this is the third time they've tried to stop passive laning with mana nerfs, and both of the previous times my reaction to the mana nerfs was "welp, now I have to play EVEN MORE passively." Mana nerfs don't make mages play aggressively. They pull back ALL of our strengths, and last time they pushed until we straight up didn't have strengths anymore. Because we need mana to do literally anything. Not just waveclear. EDIT: And for the record: That is why the assassin rework even happened in the first place.
Slythion2 votesOk, so they're less effective? That doesn't mean their purpose or very identity has changed. You're argument doesn't mean they lost their identity, and even if it somehow did it's nowhere near as comparable as wanting to make assassins teamfight orientated lol.
Do you know what it means for a class to lose their identity?
You said it yourself though, previous mana nerfs just reinforced the playstyle of many mages and made them less effective. At no point did you touch on how mages somehow changed drastically
verysalt1 votesDid I mention anything about mana? Multiple Items were changed too to the point where I do damage only up 70% of what used to be capable last season. It's very easy for me to see the direct impact of indirect overall nerf as I play OTP cham and I am aware of how much damage normally I do.
Catastrop8 votesbecause that would literally be a move designed to destroy the very identity of assassins as a class? Do you think destroying the design of a whole class just to make them more viable is really the best idea?
The layers of irony here are delicious
Slythion2 votesDo explain please :3
Drugoth1 votesMana nerfs.
Slythion5 votesare the mana nerfs really destroying the identity of mages though...?
Drugoth2 votesNo, but mage players seem to think so lol
LordGeovanni1 votesDestroying the identity of champions would be nerfing defensive items for tanks because they survive too long. Or for Warmogs locking the passive of the item until 3k hp. or for bruisers Killing all their ad items giving them have the worth in health that is already a quarter as effective damage for the same amount of gold and telling them its okay you can still do your job and justify it with The Black Cleaver increase in penetration and Cooldown reduction and Titanic Hydra scaling with hp when bruisers are supposed to stack armor and magic resist not hp for effective health to synergise with lifesteal. Mages burst thats it but even the amount of burst they do is too much its not mages burst is in they do alot of damage but rather mages burst as in all of their damage is done in short windows is the identiy of mages and then it goes on cooldown. Mages neither have that damage gate cooldown gate or Mana gate anymore and they cry when any of those gates come back because then they wouldnt be as strong as marksmen who are not comparable to mages because of how they do damage.
Saianna1 votesDestroying the identity of champions would be nerfing defensive items for tanks because they survive too long. Or for Warmogs locking the passive of the item until 3k hp.
Or nerfing mana on mages because they cast spells
Mages neither have that damage gate cooldown gate or Mana gate anymore
Proves you don't play mage. Makes your opinion soooo relevant!
LordGeovanni1 votesI play every class in the game thank you. 'Every class in the game has mana and casts spells there fore no one but mages having access to large amounts of mana Destroys the identity of every other class' is the type of logic your comment has.
Saianna1 votesEvery class in the game has mana and casts spells there fore no one but mages having access to large amounts of mana Destroys the identity of every other class' is the type of logic your comment has.
WTF is this? It's wrong as fuck.
Imagine a change in LOL in which:
ADCs have 'amunition' and then they have to either regen it with time or back to fountain
Fighters/Bruisers have stamina where thay cannot attack more than X times after which they have take a break and rest
Tanks have 'armor intergirty' that lowers with each hit taken untill they have 0 armor after few hits and they have to wait untill it regens
Mages that have surprise-surprise MANA which they need to cast their spells and then they have to wait for it to regen
Only 1 class has this bullshit gating right now. And Riot even nerfed it further. THEIR DEFINiNG ROLE AS A MAGE IS TO CAST A FUCKING SPELL and what Riot does? NERFS THEIR ABILITY TO CAST SPELLS.
What's more, if you actually played mages, you'd know CDR and mana regen were CONSTANTLY NERFED on MAGE items. Each other class has SHITTON of options to choose for CDR, but mages have about 2 viable, almost must-have items and rest is either garbage, or isn't really a mage item. mana regen? Archangels wooohoo.
Imagine LOL where whole ADC class has only 2 attack speed items in the game. Cause CDR for mages is exactly the same as Attack Speed for ADCs
LordGeovanni1 votesHey buddy you talking about champions having spells. all champions have spells and most champions use mana and all of them have less access to mana and mana sustain than mages.
You are talking about gating stereotypes. But you are forgetting that every champion type shares stats that the others use. With your changes mages would use ammunition too or they would auto attack spending mana. Mages would have stamania too mages would have armor integrity too. Because every other class has to use mana to cast spells and wait for it to regen and its ever more pronounced on them thus the reason why other classes hold their spells...... to conserve mana. mages only have 2 viable cdr items okay choose 2 
and cant build any other cdr items from other class because that wouldnt be viable. be stuck at 30% cdr max without transcendence cause only 2 viable cdr items in the game.
People dont seem to get adcs and mages are not comparable types on champions. while adcs do far too much damage they are supposed to do damage constantly. On the other hand Mages also do far too much damage and do it far too often. Mages have no down time on their spells. There are burst mages who are supposed to have chunks of damage but they shouldnt be one shotting anyone and should have ultra long downtimes and not have cc or mobility spells and control mages who should do less damage have some cc soft or hard and still long cooldowns even after buying cdr. Just like riot let adcs do too much burst cause they nerfed defense on every class except adcs and mages. They also let mages one shot people and not have any downtime to play around.
Saianna1 votesHey buddy you talking about champions having spells. all champions have spells and most champions use mana and all of them have less access to mana and mana sustain than mages.
Exactly, yes. But each class can do their job without huge amounts of mana, while mages can't do almost anything without it.
But you are forgetting that every champion type shares stats that the others use.
The thing is: For ADC abilities are supplementing his damage or maybe survivability. But mages can't supplement their abilities with basic attacks as they are innately useless in AAing.
All classes share stats, but some are heavily reliant on one-two specific stats and so far only Mages are punished for being reliant on mana.
With your changes mages would use ammunition too or they would auto attack spending mana.
I'm not suggesting this change, god no. I'm trying to say that each class could have, as you said, "gating stereotypes", but in the end it's only Mages who have it.
Sigh.. You simply avoid understanding it.
For mage mana is like amunition for adc or stamina for fighter, but it's ONLY mage who has to live with mana-gating, as other classes do not have any gating on what they do.
LordGeovanni1 votes78 7 (546) times over 5 seconds is great and much better than 0 cause running around like a chicken with head cut off because assume that auto attack are useless.
Saianna1 votesI really want to see how you, as immobile mage go and slap enemy tank that has AOE CC for whopping 30 damage.
I bet my ass you'll regret that decision.
Once teamfight starts, it's not that mages do not have autoattacks, it's just those are utterly pointlessly bad. If for example they passively dealt 10-15% of mages AP then I could see it being used somehow... But they aren't.
You are so annoying, really.
LordGeovanni1 votesUse your 400 more range than they have and more movement speed to kite because of 
if by aoe you mean technically aoe because it hits minions too but it stops at the first target hit
Slythion1 votesDestroying the identity of champions would be nerfing defensive items for tanks because they survive too long.
no, that is not what destroying or even changing the identity of a class means. If they changed Tanks to be dps-focused, the very purpose or thing they provide to a match, is what changing the identity of a class means.
For more relevance: Nerfing lethality items or other assassin items would be a nerf to assassins, but wouldn't destroy their identity unless another build that supports a different playstyle+goal becomes more viable such as the "bruiser" assassin days when tank items were much more effective for assassins.
What would be a clear cut case of destroying the identity of assassins is by pushing them to be more teamfight-orientated champions.
It worries me that people don't know this though
For context in mages: Nerfing their waveclear does not ruin their identity, nor are all mages burst-focused (see Azir, Cass, etc). I want to point out that mages are much more diverse of a class than tanks or assassins and their "identity" is much more broader than either of those classes. Waveclear and CC are generally the only two things that define mages and neither of those things are being removed from the class, just nerfed, so their identity still exists.
LordGeovanni1 votesAkali's Q and passive can be considered a problem but only considering her w for the most part. If she doesnt have w q and passive can be punished just like if she doesnt have q and passive her w can be considered bearable.
Slythion1 votesI'm a midlane mage main lmao
Trashball3 votesbecause that would literally be a move designed to destroy the very identity of assassins as a class? Do you think destroying the design of a whole class just to make them more viable is really the best idea?
at this point, I'm starting to think that the core design of assassins is flawed at its root, and carving the cancer out and redesigning them is the only actual solution to make them simultaneously playable and not broken.
Saianna1 votesbecause that would literally be a move designed to destroy the very identity of assassins as a class?
Assassins had their design changed already. They used to be strong when used strategically, had no escapes and had to commit or they'd die.
Now? Every assassin has 2-3 ways to engage and escape, invulnerabilities, shitload of tacked on steroids and are made for twitch-reflex, while strategy is pushed somewhere else.
Players were overall kinda happy with the change because "much mobility, so much wow, look at my speed, can't catch me, so much outplay".
Soooooooo:
Do you think destroying the design of a whole class just to make them more viable is really the best idea?
It already happend once, why can't it happen again?
saltran5 votesYou want more power creep, seriously?
BobaFlautist5 votesAssassins with Teamfighting tools exist, they're just labeled skirmishers/divers, and everyone hates them: 
Votable Jester1 votes
used to have teamfighting capability.
idk how she is now, but didn't they try to make her the aoe assassin?
BobaFlautist1 votesI mean they do in solo-queue, but not against coordinated play.
I guess that's the real problem, the Venn Diagram of assassins with teamfight tools that function in coordinated play, and champions that ruin solo-queue and fill up the front pages of the boards with complaints is a circle.
They get unbearable in solo-queue as they approach 35% winrate in pro-play (obviously a unchecked exaggeration, but it gets the point across). It's really hard to make a damage-oriented melee-champion that functions as such in pro play, can survive pro-level teamfights, and is anywhere remotely approaching fair in solo-queue, especially lower levels.
Votable Jester1 votesI think the real issue with assassins in pro play is that they are risky and require support from their team. You suddenly need someone else to provide waveclear and you suddenly need someone else to do magic damage (usually). Then the assassins themselves are high risk, high reward, and pro teams generally don't like taking risks.
ViciousSummoner2 votes should get Disarm on his Q when he procs the leap.
should get their silences back.
MrHaZeYo1 votesWhy not give Talon his silence back too?
Votable Jester1 votesTalon is fine for the most part against a lot of mages (at least, a lot of them are skill matches or he can push and roam).
He just needs help dealing with adc damage in the mid to late game. Currently he'll only really kill the enemy adc in the late game (without dying himself) if he gets the drop on them without their support around and uses his ult. If he doesn't get all those things, he'll at best go even, and often die without getting any kill.
Giving him a disarm would enable him to kill the enemy adc a bit more reliably later on in the game without dramatically increasing his ability to kill his lane opponent.
The steam life1 votesTalon is already pretty decent however. He’s supposed to fall off in exchange for his early and mid game power.
Bogdan19453 votesKassadin and LB were extremely oppressive when they had it , crowding out a lot of picks at all times
ViciousSummoner1 votesI mean it's not like it's OP now or anything. Especially considering we have this bitch 
who gets a free AoE silence with 0 drawbacks. This mofo 
who can easily get his off. Lastly this dude 
who is no longer viable in any way shape or form. Also I'm pretty sure after LB lost her silence she was given more damage as compensation or at least it feels that way.
The steam life1 votesI mean those champs don’t particularly need buffs. Talon is actually pretty strong right now with a wr over 51% in d+ and not to defend soraka but free?? her silence is the whole ability considering the damage proc and root don’t land 80% of the time.
Also saying x champion had something so why can’t I doesn’t really make sense.
ViciousSummoner1 votesIt's more to compare silences rather than champions. The champs in question have a way weaker silence compared to what is currently in the game.
Also I know Talon is in a good spot, but it would be nice for Talon to feel a little bit more like his older incarnation where he had the silence. You also have to admit it would be pretty satisfying having disarm on your Q. Just so that when you fly into the ADC they can't 2 shot you, or on the off chance they get saved and you can at least buy yourself some time with the disarm. It's not just for ADC's. You'll at least have some sort of edge to fighting bruisers.
The steam life1 votesI mean it would be pretty cool to have an anti adc assasin. I still don’t think there’s any particular reason why they need their silences back. They’re pretty fine without them. In the case of talon he maybe could use a change but I don’t think anyone likes playing against an assasin with a silence. There’s a reason they removed it from pretty much every one who had them.
DW Diana1 votesI mean it's not like it's OP now or anything. Especially considering we have this bitch
Hey! is still viable. You get to farm with him for laning phase, flash ult a couple of times in teamfights before getting deleted for being cc'ed by your own ult, then the enemy build qss and your time is done. Who could ask for more than that.... cries in the corner
ViciousSummoner2 votesMalz was dead the moment they reworked him. Right when it first came out it was literally a -50% to his strength. We all know what happened after that too...
Double nerf > Rework (which was actually just another nerf) > 6 nerfs in a row
Rito: Yeah, that should about do it.
Everyone who has ever played/mained Malz: https://imgur.com/gallery/c4jt321
jocomotion2 votesHow about this instead (since disarm and silences are too strong to be on point and click, non-ultimate, ranged abilities)
gets a disarm after procing his passive
Silences any champions who he hits with W for a VERY brief moment
Silences anyone who is hit by the second half of her tether
I still don't think a majority of that is fair, but it's better than before.
ViciousSummoner4 votesTalon: too slow and defeats the purpose of being an assassin.
Kass: useless outside of 1 v 1. You could technically put it on his E and remove the slow since it does have quite a low range and takes time to use.
LB: It'd be better if it was part of her Q like it used to be(?) I'm not too sure anymore. It's been too long since I've last seen old LB.
Votable Jester1 votesI think Talon's would make more sense on either his W or his ult. If he has to wait until he procs his passive, it's going to help dueling, not assassinating.
I don't think Kassadin should have a silence at this point. He has enough anti-mage tools already.
I don't think LB should get a silence either, but if she did, I think it should be specifically on one of her Mimicked abilities.
Wild Geese1 votesBring back silence on , and give some disarms to some others!.
Kaioko3 votesI mean as long as you're ok with having those champions push the 90%+ ban rate like Kassadin used to do when he had a silence why not.
Wild Geese2 votesI mean as long as you're ok with having those champions push the 90%+ ban rate like Kassadin used to do when he had a silence why not.
I mean the answer is so obvious I don't see why not have silence in this game, removing it was just a scrub change to begin with and it will make these characters viable again.
I don't see why it isn't fair in a game with airborne, stun, and suprression, 3 statis effects that don't allow you to do anything to not have silences (you can move, you can attack, you just can't cast!).
Of course they'd have to adjust around Talon, Kassadin, and LeBlanc if they had Silences again but it would be totally worth it and make the game far more interesting.
As for disarm, which is a fantastic anti-adc cc, who do you think should have it? I'd say; Zed.. the disarm in his ult. It would be a neat bit of utility for him.
Votable Jester1 votesActually I think disarm would make sense on assassins to a degree, so long as they aren't spammable. It wouldn't stop enemies from kiting/cc locking assassins, wouldn't help them much against mages (where it seems they don't need help), and it would help them survive long enough against an adc and support for it to be possible for them to pull off their burst.
In the case of against support and adc, they'd still lose if they get hit by cc and shields would suck for them, but they may still manage the kill if they evade some or all of the cc.
